The 50+50 in the Fitz

DeVore

Basically I'm sick, I cant stay away from the tables at the moment so I went down to play the 50 & 50 in the Fitz last night. 55 runners so it was a decent prizepool.

All night I got nothing. I mean seriously, nothing. No AK, AQ, AJ, AT, very few pocket pairs and only one above 77. I spent a night looking at K4 and 92. Ritchie dealt me 5,2o three hands in a row!

I sat and sat and sat for the rebuy period. My stack was 1600 at the break as I barely put more then the blinds out. I topped up not feeling great about it but shook it off and came back after the break to find nothing had changed. Somehow I managed to stumble and bumble through the levels. Never had more then 10 times the blinds and I eeked out a living between the cracks and picking up the crumbs from the big stacks. Notable hands were when I raised from UTG with JTs to be put all in by the BB's big stack. I called and he turned AK. Flop is AKx and the turn is the prettiest Queen I've ever seen. Thanks Po'Kar!

I think that was my best hand all night too, beyond that I pretty much bluffed all the way.

So, a fairly unremarkable game you might think, except for two things. Firstly I found a poker player who is unluckier then me. Brendan(?) who reads boards but who's nick I didnt get was holding the AK when I cracked it with JT. He then went on a spate of great calls, dominating hands left right and centre, and losing all of them! Underpairs tripping up against him, rivered straights for his opponent, even against JP's steal with A4 he holds AJ in the BB. The flop is 4,J,x when JP orders a 4 on the turn and gets it. He's knocked out 10th and we form final table. But thats not the end of his bad luck...

We get to final table and the prizefund is (roughly)
2200
1200
600
400
250
200
180
150
150

The blinds are 2000/4000 and sitting with a miserly 24,000 I'm happy just to be getting something. The chip leader has 60,000 and I'm third smallest in chip stakes. Des (Doc Farrell) then seriously suggests something I had kinda been joking about. A 9 way split!
I cant *imagine* that the chip leader wants to do this but its a terrific deal for me so I'm quite happy to encourage him into it, including offering the chip leaders the credits into PokerFest!
The deal is 550 for everyone with 1st 2nd and 3rd chip stacks getting 150, 100, 75 credits into Pokerfest.
Amazingly everyone agrees! So the unluckiest poker player in the world... also got the bubble and missed on a 550 quid split!

Hand of the night has to be one with Vincenzo, JP and I. Vincenzo had just been smacked hard, he's down to 4000 on blinds of 1500/3000 and he's BB. We've 10 players left and each table is getting up to watch the other tables all ins. Vincenzo posts 3/4s of his stack and I call UTG+1 with T8 knowing that JP will come too and we'll check it down and tag-team poor old Vincenzo. Which is exactly what happens, I even hit the 8 on the river on a board that doesnt look like much when "poor old Vincenzo" flips the bullets and starts singing in Italian!! Talk about timing! Those bullets earned him 550 notes!

DeV.

bohsman

sick

De Deraco

i can't believe it a 9 way split thats ridiculous i once came 8th and they did a seven way split i thought that was crazy. but a nine way split is a joke you didn't even have work in the morning to use as an excuse. sad day for tournament poker

The Snapper

What was the Big stack thinking of ?. But, well done Tom and Des .

Brendan aka. Unluckier than Tom aka. The Snapper.

Hyzepher

The quicker I can forget about the 50/50 game last night the better

On a more positive note I took home a nice €1k from the cash game

Hyzepher

DeVore

What was more interesting and (to my twisted sense of humour very funny) was the moral outrage expressed by Bohsman and Biteme (and by De Deraco here!). None of them were involved in the deal so I cant imagine why it bothers them!

If I had been even 40K in chips I'd have voted to stay and play it, but as it was I'd have been bonkers to turn down that deal. Noone was particularly well stacked so it was felt that it would be something of a crapshoot. With Vegas coming up I took the 550 and ran, giggling!

Brendan, it didnt come through in my post above but I thought you played a blinder. Some very good calls and very good patience to sit through the dead cards. I've just never seen anyone get screwed by the cards as badly, man! It was funny in the way that such things are funny when they are happening to someone else.

Whats this they say "Tradegy is when I cut my finger and comedy is when you fall down a hole!"

DeV.

The Snapper

Thanks Tom. Despite the comedy / Tragedy / Car Crash, I did have a blast last nite and reflecting today I don't feel I could (or would want to) get away from any of the hands that led to my devastating demise. So its a case of learn and move on and hopefully I can win the odd race in the Bubble tourney.

DeVore

Forget about the odd race... what about winning hands where you are clearly dominating them and they have only 2-4 outs!

You are right though, every time your money went in you were ahead and you got busted. You cant ask for better then that as painful as it feels. You have to be ahead to be outdrawn!

DeV.

Davey Devil

A nine way split, why do you people even bother playing? Something should seriously be done about this. I'd be ashamed to be involved in that deal. If people are prepared to make such a deal you have to question how much they need the money. If they need an extra 400 quid that much I don't think they should be playing in a tournament that costs 110 euro. I think players who suggest deals like this don't have the killer instinct need to make it as a successful player. I'm sorry if you think that's harsh Des but that's my feelings on it.

The Fitz seriously has to look at their policy of paying the whole final table. I think that in a 55 runner tourney the most they should be paying is the top 6. That might go some way to avoiding these shameful events.

Shortstack

Davey Devil wrote:

A nine way split, why do you people even bother playing? Something should seriously be done about this. I'd be ashamed to be involved in that deal. If people are prepared to make such a deal you have to question how much they need the money. If they need an extra 400 quid that much I don't think they should be playing in a tournament that costs 110 euro. I think players who suggest deals like this don't have the killer instinct need to make it as a successful player. I'm sorry if you think that's harsh Des but that's my feelings on it.

The Fitz seriously has to look at their policy of paying the whole final table. I think that in a 55 runner tourney the most they should be paying is the top 6. That might go some way to avoiding these shameful events.

I kind of agree with you Davey. Although I can sympathise with the players who have short stacks. Doing a deal like this is probably +EV for them. I doubt if JP, Des, Tom or Bigdragon would have agreed if any of them were chip leader.

Davey Devil

One double through from a low stack and they are well back into the game and a good shot of €2200. Do players enter a tournament to win or make the money? I don't know about anyone else but I always play to win. I'd say it's +EV to play with that attitude than to settle with what you can get.

DeVore

Thats simply ridiculous Davey. Suggesting that the Fitz should somehow force people to play a game rather then do business is madness and unworkable. Plus I strongly object to it and would refuse to play there.

I see deal making as part of the game and believe it or not, I play to win, money. Thats my criteria when I enter a tournament. Win the most money I can. Optimise my payout. With 4 times the blinds, being offered joint 3rd effectivly, I definitely did that. If I was chip leader I'd have refused and the game would have continued until maybe 3 players, then maybe another deal becomes possible. I dunno...

But negotiating a deal is, in my mind, part of the psychology of the tournament. I've done it before and I'll do it again if someone is stupid enough to offer me a deal that I simply cant refuse.

Also, I find it frankly HILARIOUS that some players (players who werent even AT the table) get so offended and on their high horse with moral outrage with comments like "sick" and "sad day for tournament poker". Thats laughable. Wtf business is it of theirs to get so worked up about it? They weren't getting the money anyway!

Me, I needed cash for Vegas, I was happy with the deal on the balance of probabilities i felt it was more then I was likely to get given all the factors. Like any gamble or call, I felt the times I would go on to win it, would not (in my honest opinion) cover the nights I exited 4th or worse from that position. +EV. If you want to "play for the win" be my guest but understand that you are dropping money for your ego. -EV.

Was it a dumb deal for some people to accept? Probably. In fact its a zero sum game so it definitely was bad for SOMEONE. As good as it was for me, it was bad for someone else at the table. Boohooo, I dont care.

As for paying the final table...those players deserved to get something too, why shouldnt 9 get paid? They played their hearts out and got to the final table, it wasnt easy and it was past 2am when it formed (another reason for the deal in fact). Why should one of them get nothing? Following your logic, why pay second even? Give it all to first!! Play for the win or why do we even bother eh?

I'd like to hear your backup for describing it as a "shameful event". What a load of pompous toss.

DeV.

DeVore

Do players enter a tournament to win or make the money? I don't know about anyone else but I always play to win.

Ok, thats where we differ. I play to make money. I would love to win, but I play to optimise money. You play to win, fair enough but dont tell me that with 500 chips left facing a table whose average stack was 100,000 you'd turn down an even split? So somewhere there is a line you will make a deal on, its just not quite as early as mine.
If you did "stick to your guns" with 500 left and "played for the win" then I'd have to say that your vanity and pride were costing you dearly.

Sorry if I came off harshly in that last post but the moral high-horsemanship gets up my considerably spacious hooter. I wasnt playing particularly good poker last night, I was tired and felt I was going to exit below third. With 3 rounds of the table left I was in a crap shoot and well behind the average chip stack.
The general moral indignation and snootyness factor just grates....

DeV.

kpnuts

Devore, can't you get off the fence on this issue and tell us how you really feel?

DeVore

Sorry, I guess I can be a bit blunt at times

DeV.

Davey Devil

Lol, I thought my post would get a friendly reaction

DeVore wrote:

Thats simply ridiculous Davey. Suggesting that the Fitz should somehow force people to play a game rather then do business is madness and unworkable. Plus I strongly object to it and would refuse to play there.

First off I never said they should force players to play on, players should always retain the right to deal. I think paying out 9 places in a 55 runner game is too many and is part of the cause of this situation occuring. That's just personal opinion though, everyone has there own ideas on payout structures.

I see deal making as part of the game and believe it or not, I play to win, money. Thats my criteria when I enter a tournament. Win the most money I can. Optimise my payout. With 4 times the blinds, being offered joint 3rd effectivly, I definitely did that. If I was chip leader I'd have refused and the game would have continued until maybe 3 players, then maybe another deal becomes possible. I dunno...

It's your right to do take the deal there. With 4 BB's it's seems like a smart plan. I'm more dismayed of the fact that it got suggested and agreed by everyone at such an early stage. Did nobody want the €2200? Taking your interest in this particular game aside do you think this practice is good for the game?

Also, I find it frankly HILARIOUS that some players (players who werent even AT the table) get so offended and on their high horse with moral outrage with comments like "sick" and "sad day for tournament poker". Thats laughable. Wtf business is it of theirs to get so worked up about it? They weren't getting the money anyway!

I'm not getting worked up about it, I just feel it's a shame and a blight on the game. Just because I wasn't envolved, you think I have no right to comment?
I think you'll find I'll comment on anything I feel like. As part of the poker community I feel like I'm entitled to make a comment on the game I love.

I think you as someone who works at promoting the game would be keen to promote it as a sport and not just another way to gamble. Poker will never be seen as anything but a way of making money while these sorts of deals continue. I love poker, I love the competiion of it. I can't help but feel deflated when deals like these occur. There's 8 players in contention for the final day of the US Open tomorrow. Do you think they'll shake hands in the morning and split the money? Would you not be abit cheesed traveling over to Vegas, covering the WSOP and they chop the final table?

If you want to "play for the win" be my guest but understand that you are dropping money for your ego. -EV.

It's obvious to me that if people are willing to take deals like this(people with bigger stacks), they must be playing scared. Why else would they settle for such a deal? They obviously need the money. If I'm playing to win I can take advantage of their hesitancy to make calls.

I think you'll find my no deals policy has been very +EV in my two years of playing poker. I don't think I have a big ego, infact I'm suprised if anyone thinks I'm any better than an average player.

Was it a dumb deal for some people to accept? Probably. In fact its a zero sum game so it definitely was bad for SOMEONE. As good as it was for me, it was bad for someone else at the table. Boohooo, I dont care.

Sorry if my post came across as an attack on you. It was more aimed at the people who you admit the deal was bad for.

Say it out loud: 55 Player Tourney, 9 Way Even Split At Final Table.

To me that's not poker and certainly not in the spirit of the game.

DeVore

heheh ok, you make some fair points. I dont agree with them but I do agree with your right to make them.

Personally I think bulking 2/3rds of the money into first and second place GREATLY increases the gambling element of poker.

Look at how I did in that tournament (I only take my one case in point because I have imperfect knowledge of other cards). I was card dead for just about all of the tournament as Brendan will concur. I mean, I really got crap over and over again. I played what I got as best I could and through sheer bloodymindedness I eeked out a place on the final table. I honestly believe that I deserve something for that. Did I deserve 550 euro? probably not at that point but as you point out yourself I have at least an outside shot at 2200. So 550 includes my equity there. Was it generous to me? yes I felt so, if I was chip leader I'd have told Des to reach back to his collar and get a good firm grip on himself!
The chip leader was fairly inexperienced of final tables so I think he felt a little intimidated and didnt want to lose what was a marginal lead. I guess he didnt feel confident.

Do I feel it was bad for the game? Not in the slightest. In fact I would prefer more gently sloped prize structures to reward people who play decent poker to get there, rather then simply get there to take their shot in the final table lottery! The Golf Masters is not decided on the turn of a card, poker involves gambling at a certain level, its still got a strong element of chance in it. 9 people left that building happy with a good return on their investment based mostly on their skill rather then 3 people leaving happy while 6 others rued "that bloody river card".
You tell me which is better for the game and which promotes gambling?

I'll say it again, I see deal negotiation as a part of the game, occasionally as part of the psychology of the game. I was once given an object lesson in that by Viv when he suggested a deal when I was chip leader. I wanted a bigger cut for myself and he wanted an even split, we disagreed and played on. Viv (smallest stack) played VERY aggressively having copped that I actually wanted the deal and picked up enough blinds to draw level with other two and then suggested the deal again, at which case I capitulated due to never having been at a final table before. He made the negotiations part of the game and the game part of the negotiations. Basically he said "I'm willing to hurl my chips into the void, are you willing to do the same? Take the deal or I'll continue to wreck your maths edge and you wont gamble with me, will you?" I've negotiated some TERRIBLE deals for others in the game, Marq witnessed one absolutely foul deal I got past 3 players. I'm not in the slightest bit sorry, if you sit at a table with me I'll use any edge I can get short of cheating or being nasty. Caveat Emptor so to speak.

Was it a bad deal for them? Probably, though everyone was tired and probably felt it would affect their play.

Was it a bad deal for the game? Are deals bad for the game? Deals (and here's where I'm going to get REALLY controvertial ) are a symptom of the bingo that is final table heads up. Noone wants to stake 1,100 euros on that. So they de-risk the event and make deals. Fine if you are playing for the WSOP, people remember that, people will say "hey! theres the world champ" or the Irish Open or whatever. Absolutely NOONE is going to say "theres last fridays outright winner". So it then comes down to willingness to gamble on short stacked heads up and players dont want to play those sorts of stakes at that time in the morning. Or any morning. Would you pay 500 notes to enter a single heads up match, winner takes all with those stacks and blinds? 250k chips in the game, by the time it reachs headsup it would be about 5k/10
Thats the equivalent of a 500 chip stack playing 10/20. Not exactly deep stacked heads up is it? Would you pay 500 into a single match winner takes all with that structure? After 6 hours of solid play? At 2am?


DeV.

bohsman

DeVore wrote:

Would you pay 500 notes to enter a single heads up match, winner takes all with those stacks and blinds? 250k chips in the game, by the time it reachs headsup it would be about 5k/10
Thats the equivalent of a 500 chip stack playing 10/20. Not exactly deep stacked heads up is it? Would you pay 500 into a single match winner takes all with that structure? After 6 hours of solid play? At 2am?


DeV.

Its paying between zero and 110 (scalps) to go heads up the winner taking 2200 and the runner up 1100 good return on investment for both which the more experienced player should win more often than not, no matter what the structure, ie online stts tend to have massive blinds heads up there is still a lot of skill involved

Doc Farrell

I just wanted 550 so that my winnings for the week would be over the 2 grand mark . I'm sorry. I won't ever do a deal again.

lets not take it too seriously people. its not like we're playing with real money.

now onwards towards the freerolls.

I think i'll go for a few beers later if i play in the freezeout at 4pm.

Imposter

Doc Farrell wrote:

I just wanted 550 so that my winnings for the week would be over the 2 grand mark . I'm sorry. I won't ever do a deal again.

Why weren't you posting in the 'Last night I won' thread? Or is it that you prefer whinging about your losses


Congrats on the successful week

Hectorjelly

Interesting discussion. My own opinion lies somewhere between Toms and Daveys. Specifically this deal was so bad for the chip leader that it brings me close to tears. The chip leader had an equity somewhere in the region of €740 - note that this doesnt take into account the fact that the CL has several automatic advantages that means his equity is probably higher than that (and that doesnt mean he has to play a big stack well, just that hes not an idiot.). He then made a deal and gave away €200 of equity. WHICH IS TWICE THE BUYIN!

Toms equity in the situation was about $420, so buy swindling his way into the deal he made €130. That is an impressive achievement and far outstrips any poker €equity edge any player had at the start of the tournament.

DeVore

"Swindling" is such an ugly word!

Oscar you quoted my question, then studiously failed to answer it. Would you PAY 500 euros to play a single heads up match with a starting stack of 500 chips and the blinds at 10/20 rising every 20 mins? Cos when it gets down to 2 thats pretty much the situation. Except they've been playing for 7 hours already and its 3am.
Personally, I wouldnt!

What I think is far worse for the game is the desire of the organisers to push ever more into the top prize so that they gain the "oooh" factor when people talk about the tournie. 5th out of 55 got double his money. You'd make more flipping burgers for the 7 hours. woohoo \o/ let me dance a fnckin jig.

If it was me this is the payout structure I would use from first to ninth.
23%
18%
14%
11%
9%
8%
7%
6%
4%

giving payouts on 5500 of:
1265
990
770
605
495
440
385
330
220

Now, if that had been the structure I wouldnt have made a deal and yes I'd probably play for the win because the difference between 1st and 2nd is only 250 notes.
You want a fairer, more sporting game of poker? that would get it for you.

DeV.

Waylander

I am also inclined to agree with Davey in that paying 9 runners in a 55 man event is a bit too much. Top 10% should get paid, this would mean last 6. I think this would be fair enough.

kinaldo

a 4 way split last sunday and a 9 way split on friday...

is there no killer instinct left in anyone anymore?

sure it's a good deal for the shortstacks and a nice profit, but nobody can say they won

it's hard to say no to the money but much more satisfying to win

Tom, you may disagree with those who say it is sad, but it tells you a lot about the characters and the quality of the poker player. A nine way split is outrageous, not because the fitz will let it happen, but because there are nine individuals there willing to do it. Fair enough, a couple of short stacks might be delighted to get 550 straight away, certainly some youngsters who have never won a pot close to that.
the final table is the most difficult part of a poker game, and heads up is essentially the peak of that depending on who you are playing.
Striking deals such as the one you mentioned shows weakness, fear and a general lack of faith in personal poker playing ability. It also shows a lack of competativeness - fair enough if you are the for enjoyment only, but for most that is not the case come final table.
Apart from all those things mentioned and by the way they would be particular things I look for when I sit down to a game (i have exploited your own fears many a time at the table, not trying to attack your game just stating a fact), the final table is a place to better your game, especially your heads up game. You are selling yourself short as a poker player taking deals - and you will pay for it if you ever get to the last few in big stakes games by being afraid and nervous and dropping tells like theres no tomorrow

Personally one of the strongest parts of my game is heads up, JP will testify to that. Why? Simple - i refuse to take deals and so get to play more heads up poker, practice makes perfect. Because of this when I get to a heads up situation i am very confident in my ability and my win rate is very high heads up.
Your argument is mainly based on short term gains? Of course that is subjective to your personal situation. However keep thinking that way and you will never be good enough to be one of the best players around - because you need ambition to get there. Short term gains wont fit that bill.

You may disagree completely here- but being completely honest with you and now that Im not in the country anymore playing against you: your a good poker player with the potential be a top poker player but the reasons you give for taking deals, money for trips to vegas etc, they are as good a tell as any other at the table, and a decent player spots it a mile away. Peronsally i dont fear you at all at the poker table, I do have respect for your game but ultimately I feel an automatic advantage due to your cautious approach. I know about your caution because I read your opinions on deals a year or two ago- the desire to to take cash because you need it at the time etc. Its the only tell ive seen in your game the few times ive played you but its a big one.

Waylander

tbh, I think Tom came out of the deal well, and probably did the right thing from his personal point of view. But a 9 man deal is a bit too much.

DeVore

El Rifle, you make some good points but I think you missed some of my explanation. I said I'd refuse the deal if I was bigger stacked for example.

I wasnt taking the money for the short term (if I was thinking short term I might well have played for the win, despite the odds!), I took the money because I believe IN THAT SITUATION it was the most profitable thing to do, long term.

I'm not a particularly scary player, in fact I go out of my way to make myself not a scary player because I WANT people to believe I actually have the goods every time I bet. I want them to think I'm playing cautiously. I chopped one of Vincenzo's legs out from under him on the second last table with 56s on a big scary flop because he believed I WASNT a scary player. I know I'm a cautious player, I know I'm pushed around sometimes, thats ok. But I get pushed off the smaller pots, and when I push back it is on the much bigger pots!

My argument is NOT based on short term gains, anything BUT in fact. If I found myself in that situation 10 times over my career as a player I reckon its +EV (as Hector shows) to take that deal. If I was chip leader I'd have laughed at it.

Belief in my game? This reminds me of that scene in Rounders... I've jacked in my 35K a year job and my place in an industry I won awards in to work in the poker industry. Sure I get paid by Mr Power but it doesnt cover the rent! Thats why I was gutted last month when I had a losing month!
Maybe I'm not the flashiest player about, maybe I'm not all about raising with 64o, its true. I play solid boring poker. I dont much care if players find me scary or not, if you want to find the flashy big move makers scary, ok. Me, I find Viv scary... a solid player with great reading abilities. Those scare me.

DeV.

bohsman

Tom it may have been a good deal for you, but Juan Pabo 2nd chip leader and Big Dragon 3rd in chips should really have at the very least held out for a better deal after a few more players had been knocked out

DeVore

I didnt have a percentage of them. They made their own decisions (its possible that for their own reasons it made sense to them). Dont know. Don't much care.

Hey, El Rifle.... I think I've just improved my Scariness Rating

DeV.

Wait wait wait......do i understand that JP was second chip leader and he took that deal?????? this cant be true surely!!

Tom, yes your arguement is good - it is a clever strategy to give off one impression and then to play another - But - is it not better to have your opponents fear you at the table? -

Thats upped your scarieness about 2 points, with an increased terror factor of 1 point

mewso

Just a note on what Davey said about the WSOP. There is something other than money to play for there. Deals have been done in the past but of course they played on to decide who gets the bracelet.
I also find it amusing that someone would consider it worth mentioning that they have no fear of Joe Bloggs in Poker, County Dublin. Lets get real folks. I have no fear of yer man who comes into the Fitz every second Tuesday. Gives me a slight edge and is surely worth some respect.

Imposter

PS's new structure for the big game every week is very good imo. They reserve minimum 10k from the money for the winner or the tournament. That way deals can be done if the players agree but they must play on for 10k (at least) to decide a winner. It's a nice chunk of cash even if it's only a smallish percentage of the overall pool.

Juan Pablo

I felt left in a very awkward situation when Doc piped up about deals before starting. Stacks were CL 80k Me 40 k BD 36k with three or four others around the 33k mark. I had initially dismissed the deal but to my amazment the CL was happy with this leaving me in a situation where I'd need to get second to do better than the deal on offer (it included €100 credit for me and €200 credit for the CL, dont know about him but this is as good as cash for me) on a final table where no one would have been willing to play, it would seem, what with the willingness to deal and all that. So do I 1) Object and play against 8 people who'll now probably love to knock me out and go and try get second or 2) Take my 700 bills (550 + 50 scalps + 100 credit) and get home to bed mindful that I had to be somewhere in 8 hours , I chose 2, but on reflection I'm still not happy about it.

No excuse is worthy of such a decision! You need to put on one of those belts that albino in the da vinci code had on and repent. And you'll be repenting well into the next life

RoundTower

DeVore wrote:

If it was me this is the payout structure I would use from first to ninth.
...
1265
990
770
605
495
440
385
330
220

The payout structure is as above. Some time in the final table, doesn't matter a whole lot when, you are the short stack and two players go all in before you. You have AA. What should you do?

This is why DeV's proposed structure would be bad for poker.