Origin of Irish language

Ania

I'm new here in Ireland and on the radio I first time in my life heard the sound of the Gaelic language.
This language is so unfamiliar to most other European languages.
Irish doesn't fit into any group of the Indoeuropean (= Slavic, Romanic, German) language but contains a Latin *touch* tough.
Can anybody explain me where this language comes from?

Thank you very much.

alic

came from scotland i think though im pretty sure

astec123

You can actually go to scotland and speak irish to them as 99% of words are the same there, the origin of Irish is in the nordic countries of norway and sweeden, but is a corruption of their Gaelic language.

Capt'n Midnight

A lot of the latin is from the monks back in the 6th century when they started writing down stuff.

There were 6 celtic areas Irish/Scotish and I think Manx were similar the other group was Welsh / Cornish / French Breton, something about P and Q. Welsh is sounds very different to Irish and words for things like numbers, seasons, countryside things are quite different too.

Always amazes me that Germanic speakers think Irish shoulds harsh !

[edit] - quick google says that Irish is a Q language and Pictish is in the Welsh group.

Celtic -> Gallic

* Gaelic -> Old Irish (-> Scots Gaelic, Irish Gaelic, Manx)
* Brittanic -> Old Welsh (-> Welsh, Cornish, Breton, Pictish)

BTW: OffTopic just found this a strory like An Táin
Story of Mac Dathó's Pig - http://vassun.vassar.edu/~sttaylor/MacDatho/

Ania

Always amazes me that Germanic speakers think Irish shoulds harsh !

Me too!
I, as a native speaker of a very soft and very quietly spoken language find Germanic (= Swedish, German, Norwegian, etc.) language sound very harsh and annoying.

the origin of Irish is in the nordic countries of norway and sweeden

Obviously, I don't have such as much knowledge about Irish history as you, but I wonder about this statement because as far as I'm concerned about the history of Ireland, the Gaels were inhabitans of the British isles before the Scandinavians invaded them.
How come the nordic languages have influenced the Gaelic tongue?

alic

thank u ania

Caixa

Ania wrote:

Irish doesn't fit into any group of the Indoeuropean (= Slavic, Romanic, German) language but contains a Latin *touch* tough.

Irish is an Indo-European language - it comes from the Celtic branch. Have a look at this page for a good article on it.

alic wrote:

came from scotland i think though im pretty sure

On the contrary, Scots Gaelic comes from old Irish.

diarmuidh

Hi Ania!
Irish is indeed an Indo-European language! just like Polish! Are you interested in learning Irish? there is a free class for non-native beginners here in Dublin!

http://www.daltai.com/discus/messages/board-topics.html

there is an Irish-American girl called Colleen running the classes! you will find her there on the discussion board! She is very helpful! She has students from all over the world! I think the classes are in Phibsborough!

you can also write to me diarmuidh at Yahoo.com

Slan
D

diarmuidh

check this out too!!

http://www.ionad.org/fograi/rangbic.htm


apparently her students have already been on the Late Late Show (a famous tv program here!!)

http://www.ionad.org/rang/

landser

alic wrote:

came from scotland i think though im pretty sure

its the other way around. scotch gallic and manx derive from irish. before the arrival of the irish on the west coast of scotland, they spoke another language altogether.

also, irish is not derived from the nordic languages, they are a quite seprate family, although irish has many similar words due to cultural links. Iriah is most likely a branch of the spansih celtic languages, although there are aldo theories that it has it's origins, at least in part, in Phonecian North Africa. here's one explanantion of the language's origins: -

The origins of Celtic language are found in the IndoEuropean root language. The progression is as follows- IndoEuropean root language becomes the following- Tocharian, Hittite, Armenian, Indo-Iranian, Greek, Albanian, Italic, P-Celtic, Q-Celtic, Germanic, and Balto-Slavic. This IndoEuropean language is the root for almost every European tongue. The Celtic languages that we know of, as no-one knows what the Urnfield people, Battle Ax people, etc. (i.e., the proto-Celtic peoples who merged to create the Celts) spoke, though it is assumed to be similar to P-Celtic, which was the foundation of the Brythonic and Gaulic languages, are P-Celtic and Q-Celtic.
"P-Celtic was the continental language (Gaul) and the language of the Brythonic peoples (Welsh and early Britons), Q- Celtic was the CeltIberian language and the insular language of the Gael. They are very different languages, as different as Latin is from German in many ways. The old Celt-Iberian Goidelic tongue, the precurser to Old Irish has not been spoken in mellenia, and thus no-one, not even scholars, can say with certainty what it sounded like. However, from written samples it seems to have been somewhat different from Old Irish, and VERY different from Modern Irish. Even Old Irish is substantially different from Middle Irish and Modern Irish. Thus, the claims of this website, taken in context with other statements I reviewed on that site, are dubious at best.

McClane

came from scotland i think though im pretty sure

No.

"Scottish Gaelic" is derived from old Irish. The gaels colonised Scotland.

You can actually go to scotland and speak irish to them as 99% of words are the same there, the origin of Irish is in the nordic countries of norway and sweeden, but is a corruption of their Gaelic language.

No you can't. A native Ulster speaker can communicated with a Scottish gaelic speaker and the level of communication is said to be 80 - 90%. Munster/Connaught is said to be less than 75%.

Irish did NOT come from the nordic countries. We have a few words from some nordic languages. Irish is a Celtic Language. (That might have been a hint, Irish, celtic. Ever hear anyone call us Celts ? :P )

Dave!

McClane wrote:

No.

"Scottish Gaelic" is derived from old Irish. The gaels colonised Scotland.

Really??? I read somewhere that the first settlers in Ireland crossed a landbridge from Scotland, and I just assumed that they brought the language with them...

Do you have a link that explains this, maybe? thanks

Odaise Gaelach

For Higher Irish in the Leaving Cert we had to learn stuff about the history of the language and where it all came from.

Irish takes a lot of words from some other different languages.

Latin / Gaeilge
Deus / Dia (God)
Cattus / Cat (Cat)
Infernum / Ifreann (Hell)

French / Gaeilge
Chapelle / Seipeal (Church)
Chambre / Seomra (Room)
Garcon / Garsún (Boy)
Boutelle / Buideal (Bottle)

Norse / Gaeilge
Bord / Bord (Boat)
Brok / Bróg (Shoe)
Knapp / Cnaippe (Button)

McClane

Really??? I read somewhere that the first settlers in Ireland crossed a landbridge from Scotland, and I just assumed that they brought the language with them...

http://www.ibiblio.org/gaelic/celts.html

The gaels (Irish) brought gaelic to Scotland.

Hagar

I'm saddened reading this thread at how badly the Irish education system has failed us.

Gwyllin

Old Norse, the language of the Vikings, has influenced Irish because the Vikings invaded Ireland. I'm surprised so few know about this. There are loads of placenames in Ireland that were originally Norse.

Waterford - Veithrfjorth
Leixlip - laxalaup (salmon river)
Limerick - Ljymrikr (or something similar)

There are others too. And it has been found traces of Norse poetry style in early Irish poems as well as persons' names from the mid 800's AD to 1200 if not longer. Manx is actually a mixture of Old Norse and Irish(maybe British as well).

Dalta

The very first inhabitants of Ireland were said to have crossed a land-bridge from Scotland, that would seemingly make the most sense. But those boyos didn't speak Gaelic and we don't really know anything about them. The Irish of Eastern Ulster, called the Scotti, colonised Western Scotland and then Kevin McAlpin, king of the scots, merged the Scots with the Picts who formerly inhabited Scotland, creating Scotland. Though that Scotland isn't the same as the Scotland of today, but that's another question.

To Hagaar, the Irish education system never taught anything about this kinda stuff and never purported to, it is certainly not their failure.

Odaise Gealach - that Stair na Gaeilge stuff in the Leaving was a load of bolox, I don't know what I got in that part of it, but I made it up on the day because the things I learnt didn't come up, I got a B1. And the stuff you learnt was retarded, gave absolutely no information apart from the barest bones they could. I hear they revamped it this year, the whole shagging thing needs more than a revamp though.

senordingdong

I thought the Celts came from the Germanic area.

GerardKeating

DaveMcG wrote:

Really??? I read somewhere that the first settlers in Ireland crossed a landbridge from Scotland, and I just assumed that they brought the language with them...

Scotia is originally a Latin name for Ireland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scotia
http://www.answers.com/topic/scotia-1?method=5&linktext=Scotia


Some cast doubt on the "Land bridge to Scotland" theory, since there is a very deep channel between Between Uslter and Scotland.

senordingdong

Like Novascotia in America?

Vangelis

Yeah, doesn't Novescotia mean 'New Scotland'?

Dalta

Nova Scotia is Latin for New Scotland, called so because of the amount of Scottish Immigrants to the region. It's called Alba Nua(New Scotland) in Irish and Écosse Nouvelle(New Scotland) in French.

The Celts originated from southern Germany/Austria and are said to have spread across Europe from Ireland to Galatia in Turkey, down to Northern Spain. It is said they came to Ireland through Scotland. There is also a theory that there were Celts living in Ireland who spoke a Celtic language not Gaelic, then the Gaels came, supposedly originally from Spain. Then the Gaels went and colonised Scotland. Though there's a load of new theories out nowadays that wouldn't agree with any of that.

tolosenc

senordingdong wrote:

Like Novascotia in America?

Nova Scotia is in Canada :P

Dub13

obl wrote:

Nova Scotia is in Canada :P

Canada is in North America

snickerpuss

Irish and Scots gaelic aren't 99% the same, otherwise i can't imagine why the ucd irish department would run a scots gaelic elective, im thinking about taking it, but i heard its hard.

Dalta

Nah, Scots Gael is easy. Well, that is, if you have any Irish. You really just gotta learn the pronounciation, basic phrases, An bhfuil, Cad é mar atá tú etc. and the rest you can understand easy enough, occasional use for a dictionary alright.

senordingdong

Also, I believe it;s more prodominant in Scotland than Irish is here.

Gael

senordingdong wrote:

Also, I believe it;s more prodominant in Scotland than Irish is here.

How did you get that impression?
Scots Gaelic is not widely taught in schools, though it is becoming somewhat more popular. The don't have their own televison station or radio stations or newspapers. And the state is under no obligation to give you services in Scot-Gaelic.

Hagar

When I worked in Glasgow a few years ago local regional ITV station STV broadcast a number of programmes in Scots Gaelic in much the same way RTE used to before TG4 came along. I found them easy enough to understand once you got past the accent and the idiom. Mind you I was was better at Gaelige then than I am now.
Use it or loose it.

Dalta

"I found them easy enough to understand once you got past the accent and the idiom."

Yeah? Cool, I always wondered how different the two were in spoken form. I listened to a Scots Gael radio show a while ago and didn't catch much of it, but I don't think I was properly concentrating. What brand of Irish did you have, as a matter of interest?

luckat

There was a Scots Gaedhlig soap called Machair (the word means that fine, wiry grass that grows by the coast) on TG4 a few years ago - excellent soap, but the interesting thing was how easy it was to understand. The Irish was kind of like Aran Irish, mostly, with a Scots accent.

Irish is Indo-European, but I remember being told a few years ago by a teacher from ITE (Institiúid Teangaólaíocht na hÉireann, the equivalent for Irish of the Academie Francaise for French) that Irish grammar was older than the language, and it appeared that the language had been imposed on an earlier language and consumed it.

Small linguistic note: the word Scot originally meant a person from Ireland - that's why Duns Scotus was so called: he was Duns the Irishman.

And a small literary note: if you want to read superb stories, some about the use of Irish and Scots Gaelic in Nova Scotia, look for a book by Alasdair MacLeod called The Lost Salt Gift of Blood. One story, The Tuning of Perfection is, well, perfet.

Hagar

I have a bit of a mix between Ulster and Munster Irish as the school changed teachers a couple of times.

snickerpuss

Chonaic mé é seo faoi gaeilge na hAlban, cheap mé go raibh sé an-spéisúil.
Má feiceann tú ar na pictuirí tá siad beagnach mar an gceanna leis an ghaeilge. Níor cheap mé go raibh sé chomh cosúil le chéile.

Visitscotland.com

I seen this about scots gaelic, i thought it was really interesting.
If you look at the pictures they're almost the same as irish. I didnt think they were so similar.

harry1234

Yea, I used to be saying that alot of the Latin was brought in bythe Monks- words like sé,tú sí etc.
Professor Louis Philip Costa- an anglo Indian at Harvard and a Sanscrit scholar, told me in Dublin that in his opinion words like Mé. tú and sé all came over from Sanscrit into both Latin and Irish.
Harry

harry1234

if you come from Munster irish and try to listen to Donegal Irish you have to listen very carefully for the first 5 years or so to get the accent and the shortcuts.
Some people tell you that Munster I (like south Tipp and waterford) isnt Irish at all, just souped up english.
Then there was the group that told President Childers to give up Irish because his accent was not suitable.
Sir John Betcheman (who went to school in Dublin) had the Foclór Gaeilge/Béarla on his office shelf when John O'Donaghur asked him "An Bfhuil Gaeilge agat?" and he replied "Bhfuell do bhí, ach níl sé agam anois".

harry1234

North america is over there as you go in - between the atlantic and the Pacific oceans.

harry1234

Yes. I used to think that words came into Irish from Latin through the monkish writings. Professor Louis Phillip Costa, an Anglo-Indian Sanscrit expert said that in his opinion words like mé, tú and sé came over from Sanscrit into both Latin and Irish.

harry1234

Capt'n Midnight wrote:

A lot of the latin is from the monks back in the 6th century when they started writing down stuff.

There were 6 celtic areas Irish/Scotish and I think Manx were similar the other group was Welsh / Cornish / French Breton, something about P and Q. Welsh is sounds very different to Irish and words for things like numbers, seasons, countryside things are quite different too.

Always amazes me that Germanic speakers think Irish shoulds harsh !

[edit] - quick google says that Irish is a Q language and Pictish is in the Welsh group.

Celtic -> Gallic

* Gaelic -> Old Irish (-> Scots Gaelic, Irish Gaelic, Manx)
* Brittanic -> Old Welsh (-> Welsh, Cornish, Breton, Pictish)

BTW: OffTopic just found this a strory like An Táin
Story of Mac Dathó's Pig - http://vassun.vassar.edu/~sttaylor/MacDatho/

I used to say that but Professor Louis Philip Costa, a sanscrit expert, told me that words like mé, tú and sé came into both Latin anf Irish from Sanscrit, thanks also to Landser for his excellent analysis. Harry