Aggressive tendencies

Kell

Not sure if this is more suited to Philosophy but here goes.

I have been pondering for sometime- why a person can walk down say Clanbrassil street and 3am in the morning locked out of their head, pass a load of thugs and continue on their merry way without a snifter of trouble, whereas a another person walks down same street and winds up with several holes in their chest courtesy of thugs with screwdrivers.

Now, from other peoples experience and mine this does not come down to a persons stature. One would usually draw the conclusion that a bloke built like a brick shít house is unlikely to get attacked, but evidence does not bear this out. Example, I am a very slim 5' 11" bloke who has been asked for a cigarette from two heads on O'Connell bridge one night. Three minutes later they are beating the head off some poor cúnt. Another night I intervened in a mob scrap and again not one tot of aggression was shown towards me when I was trying to placate the main protagonists.

Now I am wondering if, in the same way part of attraction is down to chemical emmissions from people telling some sensory receptors in other peoples brains what our personality is like, the same works for aggressive tendencies?

Personally I think behavioural attributes such as aggressive/passive tendencies are far more primal than research is bothered to look at. Take for example a dog. A good natured dog can go for years without raising a hackle to no-one and then one day decides he dislikes someone and rips the bollóx off them. Again, chemical receptors in their brain receiving something they dont like.

Thoughts?

K-

aphex™

Chemical emmissions? Eh no, but i've alot of experience with this. I once read an interview with a mugger (crime article or something) and he said he picks people by the way their shoulders and eyes look. If somebody is desperately trying to avoid eye contact, or is walking with slouched shoulders etc he'll pick them, even if they're 6' 4".

Seriously, you can tell alot about people from their appearence, mannerisms etc.

Do u look very fit/hard?
I'm 6'3" and people react completly differently to me when i've got a short haircut to when i've gone a few weeks without one, especially on Dublin's fair northside city centre. Random teenagers hanging around will pass comments to me in the street and shoulder me when i've long(ish) hair (don't look like a rocker/stoner or anything). Especially when i'm walking around feeling a bit fed up (happens to the best of us sometimes).

Short haircut? No hassle, not even a shoulder!

Anyway, in your Clanbrassle street example, i reckon if i'd look one of them in the eye briefly i'd be fine, if i kept my eyes on the ground i'd get started on.

Scum only start on people they think they can beat up. The bigger the victims are the better it makes them look in front of their mates. Not everybody who is big is hard though- or wants a fight.

Kell

aphex&#8482 wrote:

Chemical emmissions? Eh no,

Proove it. Scientific evidence shows the production of pheronomes in humans as a factor in attracting a mate so why not scents etc that say "dont mess with me"? All animals, barring none that I can think of, function in this manner either to attract a mate, mark territory or show aggression. Are you suggesting that evolution has robbed us of our basic animal functions?

As for me looking hard- no more than the next guy. Shaved head yes- well built- no, but its hardly an indicator these days is it? Plus , if your buckled off your head, you'd be fair game for a 4st weakling, let alone a screwdriver wielding experienced thug.

It just strikes me as odd that certain people have never had an ounce of trouble pointed in their direction throughout the entirity of their lives yet others seem to attract it. Those others can be well poised, confident, look you in the eye sort of people. Bad luck? Surely not. So what other factors are we looking missing?

K-

aphex™

Kell wrote:

Proove it. Scientific evidence shows the production of pheronomes in humans as a factor in attracting a mate so why not scents etc that say "dont mess with me"?

Well I'm not a scientist but they won't catch your pheronomes (smell) until AFTER you've walked by them. On clanbrassle street they'd be staring at me long before they could possibly get my "i'm fed up- easy game here lads" pheronomes. Perhaps even at 25 metres away.

Anyway, humans don't produce pheronomes in large quantities, thats why women wear perfume- because their natural smell won't go very far. Have you a link to that scientific evidence?

It's all body language. Get a book on body language if you want to know more.

ALSO: smokers have terrible senses of smell. Half the scum in Dublin smoke. Does that mean they never start on anybody? No. They wouldn't be able to read your pheronomes then, to decide if they can beat u or not!

Kell

aphex&#8482 wrote:

It's all body language. Get a book on body language if you want to know more.

Based on your viewing of one TV interview. I am a long term psychology student thanks and know all about body language. You disagree with my hypothesis, fine. But debunk it.

aphex&#8482 wrote:

they won't catch your pheronomes (smell) until AFTER you've walked by them.

Even downwind of you? Sorry- couldnt resist.


If human beings are equipped with the equipment to detect pheromones (albeit at a low level) why assume that we are not equipped to detect other chemicals such as those present in the rest of the animal kingdom i.e. certain animals being able to detect that another animal would be a good mate from the smell of their urine.

As for pheromones (which is not the knub of the post- merely used for comparative purposes)-

http://social-sciences.uchicago.edu/ssdnews/mcclintok_article.html
http://www.cf.ac.uk/biosi/staff/jacob/teaching/sensory/pherom.html
http://www.apa.org/monitor/oct02/pheromones.html
http://cas.bellarmine.edu/tietjen/images/human_pheromones.htm
http://zebra.biol.sc.edu/smell/ann/myth10.html

Sites above for illustrative purposes only. This post is not about pheromones remember.

aphex&#8482 wrote:

ALSO: smokers have terrible senses of smell.

Broad generalisation. I smoke and have above average sense of smell. I also played drums for eight years without plugs and after a hearing test when I got tinnitus, I have well above average hearing, even with permanent tinnitus.

Am I some miraculous exception to the rule? I think not.

K-

Wibbs

You've raised some good points there Kell. I think there may be something in what you say re the pheromone thing. When you have women living together whose periods synchronise due to pheromones, I don't think it's too far a leap to suggest that it may have a bearing with aggressive behaviour.

I do take the point that walking by someone in the street the pheromone effect may be quite low. That said I did see a situation where a couple of thug types asked me for a ciggie(which I duly gave to one of them) and I went on my way unmolested. I look back and in a similar vein to your example on O'connell street, see another bloke, much bigger than me hand over a ciggie and get the crap beaten out of him for his trouble.

I've certainly seen better examples of your theory at house parties and pubs where people are closer together and the pheromone effect may hold more sway.

The example of animals relying on such chemical signals is fine but humans have among the worst sense of smell among mammals. Then again that may be restricted to smells that we consciously pick up on. Maybe we have greater sensitivity to unconcious smells like pheromones than we realise. It would be interesting to see further debate and research on that.

Kell you've made me think. How dare ya, ya ****. on a Friday night an all. If my pheromones are outa whack 'cos of this thread and I get a kickin in town tonight, I'm comin after ya.:)(though it might prove your theory)

Pink Bunny

aphex&#8482 wrote:

I once read an interview with a mugger (crime article or something) and he said he picks people by the way their shoulders and eyes look. If somebody is desperately trying to avoid eye contact, or is walking with slouched shoulders etc he'll pick them, even if they're 6' 4".

Seriously, you can tell alot about people from their appearence, mannerisms etc.

.

I think that's closer to the answer.....it's body language and if you appear confident and aware of your surroundings you are less likely to be bothered because you give out the appearance that you will put up a fight. That's what I've heard anyway.

iguana

Kell wrote:

Based on your viewing of one TV interview. I am a long term psychology student thanks and know all about body language. You disagree with my hypothesis, fine. But debunk it.K-

I think his points about the pheromones are valid as an attempt to debunk it.

As for the body language thing, here goes.

You are statistically 70% less likely to be a victim of random street violence if you have completed a self defence course. Doesn't matter if it is actually any good or not, it is more to do with the confidence of they person.

Further studies on this topic were completed recently in a US jail. Offenders of random street crime were shown cctv footage of a scene in the minutes before an attack took place. They were asked to pick out which person they believed would be attacked. There was an over 80% accuracy.

Exaimining the footage revealed that there was a common pattern with all the victims. They were usually out of sync with those around them, eg., walking slower than the crowd they were in. They also behaved in a less confident manner, often being hunched over or distracted.

People who suspect they are being followed are also advised to turn around and look the person they are worried about in the eye. If they are an attacker it is supposed to both throw them as it breaks expected patterns and it also means that they are more likely to be identified.

However, it is believed that animals can smell your fear. Mammals do release a scent when their adrenilin is high. So it stands to reason, imo, that your theory is also plausible. I would say that both theories can compliment each other.

The person who is a bit nervous both looks it and "smells" it, thus increasing their likelihood of being attacked.

Esel

aphex&#8482 wrote:

.... I once read an interview with a mugger (crime article or something) and he said he picks people by the way their shoulders and eyes look. If somebody is desperately trying to avoid eye contact, or is walking with slouched shoulders etc he'll pick them, even if they're 6' 4". ... .

You may have got that shoulder thing wrong. Check this http://forums.uechi-ryu.com/viewtopic.php?p=115053&highlight=shoulders#115053 . Try it for yourself. Assume the 'relaxed shoulders' posture then the 'raised shoulders' one. Which do you think would make you look like an easy target?

Phil_321

aphex&#8482 wrote:

Well I'm not a scientist but they won't catch your pheronomes (smell) until AFTER you've walked by them.

No. If you watch the fillm Commando, in the opening scene, Arnold Swarchzenneger realises he is about to be attacked when he catches the scent of the enemy.

aphex™

Phil_321 wrote:

No. If you watch the fillm Commando, in the opening scene, Arnold Swarchzenneger realises he is about to be attacked when he catches the scent of the enemy.

Right, so everyting in movies is true now, is it?

Manach

Well they never had a movie with Swarchzenneger as a governor, so perhaps the movies are more realistic .

On topic, I was reading a book about violence "The gift of Fear", which the author mentions that chemical signals are a distinct part of measuring the likehood of agression in a situation, at an intuitive level.

Shabadu

Could it be a combination of both? Both are governed on a subconcious level, and a certain stance/attitude could be linked to a certain chemical pattern too. For example, people with high levels of testosterone carrying themselves in a slightly more intimidating manner.

neuro-praxis

I've met a couple of people in my life who are attacked and abused wherever they go, simply while walking down the street. They both had poor posture, lack of confidence and a tendency to keep their heads down.

the_syco

Your eyes, I think, above anything else, keeps you safe. I look side to side, catching people's eye's as I walk, and I've never been attacked. If someone asks for a smoke, I usually tell them to f*** off, or "no, I don't have one on me", depending on the person.

If they're eyes are gaunt, I say f*** off. If their eyes are awake, I either say I don't have one, or I give them one if I do. If you break eye contact by looking in another direction, when giving them a smoke, you may be in trouble, I believe.

pretty-in-pink

Both I reckon.....its all very well to stand tall, but if you don't believe in your self-confidence, then you surely still give off a "fear" smell. And are you sure about using eye-contact so much? After a certain time isn't it read as a challange?

I think if you believe in yourself, you become more confident, and so act/smell that way. I was jumped once, but by another girl.....and that was stopped pretty quickly, and I had one abusive ex...but in general I don't get grief. Apparently I look like I might actually hurt you if you try anything....its "in my eyes"

Aggression has to have some basis with hormones.....why else are women who are "on" or about to be "on" so much more aggressive then normal.....and it does feel like you can "smell the fear" of those around you and so know who you can roar at without any consequences and those who will roar back. I reckon its probably far more simple then anyone thinks

Tha Gopher

I suppose dress can have alot to do with it

Example- i wear tracksuit bottoms, tops, hoodies, heavy style jacket all that generally. Primarily for comfort, dont like jeans at all, and dont like leather jackets at all. Have seldom if ever had any unprovoked trouble walkin past a gang of heads of the same age as me

However, a few weeks ago Ida job interview in Blanch village, so obviously i was wearin my best stuff, button up long sleeve shirt, black trousers and shoes. Decided to cut through the shopping centre on my way home. AAs most of yis know, that end of Blanch is skang central, and when I was walkin near my gaff some young scumbag gave me a fierce look, a sort of "what the **** you dressed like dat round here for" look.

Also, lets be honest, when you see alot of the foreigners in Dublin (by foreign I primarily mean the spanish) you do have to think "fcuk me he is dressed like a twat". If i was of lower mental capacity and devoid of common sense i would probably be fighting them, they dont look the strongest either. Could be the reason so many foreign students seem to get beat up *shrugs*

But its not all posh boys vs skangers. If a skanger from Tallaght was walking around Ballymun at night hopelessly lost and wearin the finest imitation gold chains known to the Elizabeth Duke counter in Argos, and happened to run into a dozen mun heads, hes in for it

A few weeks before that, I was walkin across the same area on my way to a house party before we would head into town. Wearin a good sleaveless black button up, cream khakis and shoes, and some lad of 15 says "would ya give me mate a row?". I actually had a few drinks in me by then and only I was holding a bottle of cider in a bag I probably would have.....because im an eejit like that

The odd thing is, from my experience people who look like they couldnt fight for the life of them get into less fights oddly enough. Most fights are hard man vs hard man. Despite my earlier post i cant be arsed fighting. Its a great buzz when you win, but i cant be arsed risking a broken nose despite that.

ixoy

I've always wondered why some folk get picked upon more than others myself. I'm short of stature - 5'6" and built like a paper house in a wet day - so physically I'd have thought I'd be a target. I also tend to walk very swiftly (regardless of night or day) which could indicate something to the neanderthal brains of would-be assaulters. I do however, look straight ahead and, although never staring at anyone, don't engage in shifty eyes either... and it seems to work for me. I also keep to the main well-lit routes, which is an advantage.

Still... I sometimes think it's a wonder, especially given there's a number of times when I've been demonstratably gay on the streets that I'd "qualify" for a bashing by some thug.

So is it something else? Is there a degree of luck or something more to it than that?? I can't place my finger on it..

DaftDaze

Nah, I don't think it's anything to do with pheromones, I was given a pretty bad going over a few years back, and the only smell from me was one of excess booze (hic), I guess I was an easy target. The bastards get a buzz from it, a pure adreneline rush, and it passes the time for them whilst walking home. If I had been sober, I'm almost sure they would have picked on someone else.

Kell

DaftDaze wrote:

Nah, I don't think it's anything to do with pheromones,

:rolleyes: See below

Kell wrote:

This post is not about pheromones remember.

K-

simu

There's an element of luck in these things but how you react when accosted by a stranger in the street can also be a factor. I find it's a better strategy not to assume the worst (well, not to show that you're assuming the worst, anyway!) and not to show fear and other negative emotions. I've had the odd run-in with a scanger but I've tried to be neutral rather than putting a horrified "what is that scum doing talking to me" look on my face and it's worked... so far!

Stark

I never get approached either. I always stay totally calm and relaxed.

Dyr

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/robbery_avoidance.html

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/five_stages.html

might help to explain or enlighten a bit

Lemming

Kell, most muggings/attacks come down to the "easy target" notion given off by things like body language and demeanour. I've a really two good articles on this one written by a long-time Toronto police officer. I'll email them to you when I go home today.

seamus

I'd be more inclined to lean towards the "attitude and confidence" theory myself, too. I wouldn't discard the possibility of hormonal influences either, but in humans these kinds of detections are much poorer than in animals.

That said, I do have a mate who is extremely strong (not just strong looking) and confident, yet seems to find himself in trouble quite often. More often than not it's his own attitude that escalates the problem, but I think that others tend to initally react to him because he can give off a very threatening posture, even when he's totally at ease. He then reacts to their threatening behaviour and they end up in hospital.

I personally wouldn't class myself as big, strong or particularly confident, but I have heard others make comment, and I've never even been started on, except from stupidly drunk people. A few times I've only needed to stand up to ward off trouble. Scumbags on the bus chat to me and offer me spliffs.

Trojan

I find looking them in the eye and nodding hello results in a respectful nod back. Mind you, the crew around D5 are possibly not as battlehardened as in some other areas.

Belladonna

Bambi wrote:

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/robbery_avoidance.html

http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.com/five_stages.html

might help to explain or enlighten a bit

Great links, thank you.
Attitude and confidence have a lot to do with it, as well as not being in the wrong place at the wrong time. We all know areas near us where it's better to avoid walking alone. Sometimes it comes down to just using common sense .

Altheus

I've been in, and avoided conflicts most of the way through my life. Firstly, I don't think it's in any way a primal thing whatsoever. If it's going to boil down to anything, it's going to be:

A) Size and posture. Anyone who's ever been in a fight knows that the small tough guys always win. Tall, big guys have a tendancy to reason a lot more, and sometimes overestimate their strength. People know this.

Clothing. Simple enough this. How rough or clean, long hair or not.

C) Confidence in stride. You walk slowly, your head lulled, and stare at your shoes, chances are you, A) Don't work out, Are easy pickins.

That said there are plenty of people who fight, to fight, not to just beat you up. I've been picked on by guys in Dublin who run away when you fight back, and I've been picked on by guys who spend the whole time trying to cojole you in to hitting them so they have a fight on their hands.

I live in Bond St, so a 3AM that means walking the length of Thomas St, Echlin St and coming round by the Marrowbone lane flats. One thing I've learned from this trip is walk fast, look ahead, if someone talks to you dont slow down or stop, keep moving, respond, show no interest or fear and keep moving eyes forward.

It's simple body language, not chemicals and subconscious.

neuro-praxis

seamus wrote:

Scumbags on the bus chat to me and offer me spliffs.

Ah that's the posh Lucan scumbags for you.

Kell

Altheus wrote:

I've been picked on by guys in Dublin who run away when you fight back,

Same for me- but why is it in the majority of cases, the victim tends not to fight back. I have witnessed this when watching random street violence.

Has society as a whole got soft? I know for me that if some fúcker hits me, my blood boils and I lose the head - Fúck, two really stupid people threatened me with knives on separate occasions and when challenged, they promptly legged it.

However, there are a lot of cases where you see someone getting attacked and its a lie there and take it attitude winding up with them suffering more damage than they would have likely sustained had they fought back.

Anyone any notions as to why this happens? I thought our "animal sense" response to panic/fear was to fight or flight. *Where did "ho hum. I think I will lie down and take it" come from?

Notions anyone?

K-

*In fact, theres a separate debate altogether.

aphex™

You've raised some interesting questions there kell.

People don't tend to fight back. I think this has resulted in the craze where scum run up and box people in the face. People just sit there (say if its on a train) and can't understand what is happening to them.
If it was me i'd be quick to react, and smash any phones they're videoing it with, but thats because i'm wary and expect it.

I once hard of some daughter of a relation who was dragged along the road in town one day by a total stranger (weirdo), despite her shouting and screaming, nobody did anything.

Maybe people are so used to seeing violence on TV that they find it hard to accept what is happening is reality?