NI elections-looks like Trimble wipeout and South Belfast goes nationalist

Latest reports I'm hearing.
Trimble looks like he's gone, with his seat going to the DUP.
Looks like Alastair McDonnell of the SDLP is going to be South Belfasts new nationalist mp as Sprat and McGimpsey split the unionist vote.

Box car Willie McCrea is taking Roy Begs Seat and Conor Murphy of SF seems like a cert in Newry and Armagh.

Over in Foyle, in John Humes old seat, it looks like Tactical voting by some of the 10,000 or so unionist voters there is helping Durkans battle against Mitchel Mcglaughlin.

The headlines are as expected with the core votes of SF and the DUP up.

A Dub in Glasgo

Gerry Adams holds his seat with 70.5% of the vote

yeah, he also mentioned in his speech about a shredded register, what was that all about?

mike65

Me rushes to the telly....NOT! Sorry but I cant get remotly excited by the shifting sands up North. But I did hear someone from the SDLP suggesting strongly they'd hold 3 seats.

Mike.

Alastair Mcdonnell elected in S Belfast now for the SDLP

MT

So there we have it. Further proof, if it were needed by this point that the North is well on its way to becoming the new Balkans. With yet more polarisation, the two tribes have essentially elected the most repugnant of parties to represent them. In truth, each side doesn't give a fig about improving life in NI but instead how they can most damage and hold back the advancement of the 'enemy' across the sectarian divide. Such bitter, begrudging and bigotted people.

What are the chances now of stable, productive devolved government? What with the success of the IRA and Protestant Jihad at this election. Well, there's one thing that can be said, they've made their own beds...

If nothing else, Alasdair McDonnell's victory in South Belfast gives some reason for chear. If only because it'll annoy all the other parties intensely.

Unionists are furious that their vote was split giving the seat to Nationalism. There'll be recrimminations over this for weeks, if not years, between the DUP and UUP over who's to blame. But the greatest ire of all belongs to Sinn Fein. They positively hate the man - another of those many 'traitors' that Republicans rave on about.

McDonnell was by far and away the strongest supporter and most vociferous voice behind the McCartney sisters campaign for justice for their murdered brother. Needless to say Sinn Fein view the sisters and McDonnell as treacherous vermin. During the campaign, instead of standing aside and giving McDonnell a free run as the only nationalist with a chance, SF displayed once more their intolerance for nationalists with alternative opinions by forcefully pushing Alex Maskey to ensure the SDLP were kept out. It did seem at times that the Republican Movement desperately wanted the seat to go to a Unionist as opposed to a rival Nationalist.

Then to top it all, who did McDonnell receive an endorsement from on a visit north? Why, none other than SF's bete noir and most trenchant critic - Michael McDowell. I'd love to be a fly on the wall at party hq tonight if anyone mentions McDonnell, McDowell and the McCartney sisters all in the one sentence. There'd be kneecaps splintering in every direction.

Raskolnikov

Trimble set to lose his seat to DUP. Wonder were the voice of moderate Unionism will go from here.

MT

Now that McDonnell has seen off both the IRA and Protestant Jihad in the consituency he'll be able to use his higher profile to further advance the McCartney cause. But there can be no doubt that this result, in conjunction with the severe censure by the European Parliament of SF's conduct over the brutal McCartney murder, should give the sisters a real lift. Who knows, with the current run of events there might yet be justice for Robert.

To paraphrase SF supporters crude jeers at the Meath count, this was definately an 'up yours' from McDonnell.

just heard on BBC NI that Durkan in Foyle is running at up to 6000 votes ahead of Mitchel MCloughlin.

MT

Raskolnikov wrote:

Trimble set to lose his seat to DUP. Wonder were the voice of moderate Unionism will go from here.

In a deliquent tribalised society, that's riven by sectarian fear and loathing, there are precious few moderates of any hue. Hence, the rise of the all-island geographic absolutists and Protestant Jihad.

MT

Earthman wrote:

just heard on BBC NI that Durkan in Foyle is running at up to 6000 votes ahead of Mitchel MCloughlin.

Excellent news. This will be a real triumph over adversity and the best possible answer to the thuggish antics and intimidation of Republican hoods in the area.

A victory for democracy over brutality and tyranny.

A Dub in Glasgo

Oh dear... such hyperbole

Durkan has just been elected with a margin of about 4000 votes

I understand theres a recount in mid Ulster as a box with 3000 odd votes has been found and wasnt counted.

Conor Murphy is still waiting in Newry and Armagh but looks a cert there.

This means 7 "green" mps up North or is it 8, it would be the largest number ever iirc.

The UUP are down to one.


{moderator hat on] I sense something sparky in this thread, would those who are sparking please chillaxe or I may have to take action-ye know who ye are {moderator hat on}

Sand

If anything positive arises from this it may be cross community tactical voting to try and prevent terrrorists on one hand and extremists on the other gaining seats. Hopefully when theyre forced into a hardplace the UUP and the SDLP will engage in voting pacts in future elections to try and somehow keep the center ground together.

It is sad however to see how people are rejecting the peace proccess on both sides by punishing the parties that created it and supported it. It wasnt the DUP or SF/IRA that made the peace proccess - the collapse of the peace proccess and their increasing power isnt unconnected. Trimble was hung out to dry by Blair and Ahern - he staked his political career on a written guarantee from Tony that SF/IRA would have to decommission before entering power and he was sold out. SF/IRA gets invites to Chequers, the SDLP doesnt. At every turn the peace proccess has sought to humiliate and undermine the moderate parties that tried to make it work. I hope Tony and Bertie are enjoying the absolute mess theyve made of Northern Ireland.

A Dub in Glasgo

Murphy takes Newry & Armagh with a big swing

SF vote increased by 6.6% in Derry with the SDLP down 4%

jank

Eh this board shouldnt be used as a platform to lecture others on their political believes and what THEY beleive is right, especailly the stupid commments regards to the voters of Northern Ireland. IF you do that then your just as bad as them. The only difference is that your too stupid to know it

Excellent news. This will be a real triumph over adversity and the best possible answer to the thuggish antics and intimidation of Republican hoods in the area.

In a deliquent tribalised society, that's riven by sectarian fear and loathing

the rise of the all-island geographic absolutists and Protestant Jihad

repugnant of parties

COP YOURSELF ON!!!!!!

Sand

Eh this board shouldnt be used as a platform to lecture others on their political believes and what THEY beleive is right,

Oh - what is it for then? Its certainly not to resolve political disputes. Showing up peoples views as moronic is about as good as it gets here. And lets face it, people who vote SF/IRA and DUP arent going to get anything other than contempt - maybe pity if theyre lucky.

uberwolf

Jank - earthman has already addressed the language and tone being used. Could you leave it to the moderators please.

It is also within the remit of this thread to discuss interpretations of the results and likely consequences. If a divide appears here in topics I'll split.

edit: actually weeks ban for jank for personal abuse (on rereading the post)

A Dub in Glasgo

Sand wrote:

. And lets face it, people who vote SF/IRA and DUP arent going to get anything other than contempt - maybe pity if theyre lucky.

You don't believe in democracy then? Or is your version of democracy, only the people who vote the way you want will get accepted and not be slagged?

I have to say I did find the face on Peter Robinson amusing today when,I think it was Conor Murphy said that SF representatives from the 6 counties will sit in the proper parliament for Ireland , the Dáil when theres a united Ireland.

By the way steering through the meleé that is Northern Ireland politics and looking at the votes cast this time, theres no question but the "green" vote is growing.I've no doubt although others here will disagree with me, that within a decade or two, both camps there will be close to neck and neck.

I mean 8 "green" seats already out of 18 is kind of symtomatic of that trend.
There was a time when the "green" vote only held maybe a quarter of NI's westminister seats.

Thats a thought that as much as anything else that is driving moderate unionism towards the DUP.

oscarBravo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

You don't believe in democracy then? Or is your version of democracy, only the people who vote the way you want will get accepted and not be slagged?

Where in the definition of democracy does it say that if a majority [1] vote for something, it's not stupid and contemptible? Do you suppose opposition parties should fold their tents and disband their parties because more people voted for the other crowd?


[1] ...or whatever small percentage is required in FPTP voting.

Villain

Well the people of Northern Ireland have spoke and this is how the results look:

Seats   Votes         	%  	% Change from 2001 
UUP	1 	127,414 	17.8%  	-9.0%  
DUP 	9 	241,856 	33.7%  	+11.2%  
SF	5 	174,530 	24.3%  	+2.6%  
SDLP	3 	125,626 	17.5%  	-3.5%  
AP 	0 	28,291 		3.9%  	+0.3%  
Oth 	0 	19,885 		2.7% 	-1.9%

So the DUP have won over the Unionist vote in a big way with former First Minister David Trimble failing to get elected and the UUP now only have 1 seat.

Sinn Fein have increased their vote despite the large media coverage of the McCartney murder and the Northern Bank Robbery along with the bashing from McDowell etc. The SDLP have lost out to Sinn Fein but still have 3 seats.

So the rise of Sinn Fein continues in 1997 they got 2 seats then in 2001 they got 4 now they have 5. Over the same time scale their % share has gone from 16.1% to 21.7% and now to 24.3%. While the SDLP have gone from 24.1% in 1997 to 21.0% in 2001 and now to 17.5%.

These stats can't be ignored, Sinn Fein represent the majority of Nationalists and have been consistently growing their vote. So while posters come on here and bash Sinn Fein at every opportunity the majority of Nationalists who actually live in Northern Ireland support Sinn Fein.

Sinn Fein can and will deliver peace, it is now time that the DUP respected the wishes of the people of this Island and embraced the Good Friday Agreement.

This is a great day for Sinn Fein and a great day for Nationalists, it is time Bertie Ahern and Michael McDowell listened to the people of Northern Ireland and respected the Mandate they have given Sinn Fein.

oscarBravo

irish1 wrote:

This is a great day for Sinn Fein and a great day for Nationalists, it is time Bertie Ahern and Michael McDowell listened to the people of Northern Ireland and respected the Mandate they have given Sinn Fein.

I'll repeat a point I made in the other thread: I see no reason to respect a point of view just because a majority of a particular group of people express it.

If a BNP candidate gets elected in a particular constituency, does that automatically mean that all the darkies should go home?

Villain

oscarBravo wrote:

I'll repeat a point I made in the other thread: I see no reason to respect a point of view just because a majority of a particular group of people express it.

If a BNP candidate gets elected in a particular constituency, does that automatically mean that all the darkies should go home?

Well imo people should respect the choice of the electorate, they don't have to accept their choice but they should respect it. This works both ways btw the nationalists should respect the unionists choice as well.

mycroft

irish1 wrote:

So the DUP have won over the Unionist vote in a big way with former First Minister David Trimble failing to get elected and the UUP now only have 1 seat.

And this a good thing?

Sinn Fein have increased their vote despite the large media coverage of the McCartney murder and the Northern Bank Robbery along with the bashing from McDowell etc. The SDLP have lost out to Sinn Fein but still have 3 seats.

SF's increase was marginal to say the least I recal you saying the a similar dip in support during a recent opinion poll was within the margin of error. One could argue that SF failed to capitilise better on the SDLP's lack of real leadership coming into this, and it's gains are disappointing in this respect.

So the rise of Sinn Fein continues in 1997 they got 2 seats then in 2001 they got 4 now they have 5. Over the same time scale their % share has gone from 16.1% to 21.7% and now to 24.3%. While the SDLP have gone from 24.1% in 1997 to 21.0% in 2001 and now to 17.5%.

And the DUP have noticed a more significant rise........

These stats can't be ignored, Sinn Fein represent the majority of Nationalists and have been consistently growing their vote. So while posters come on here and bash Sinn Fein at every opportunity the majority of Nationalists who actually live in Northern Ireland support Sinn Fein.

So let me get this straight, we can't critise SF because they're more popular than the SDLP? By that rational, FF are above reproach, as are labour and george bush....

Sinn Fein can and will deliver peace, it is now time that the DUP respected the wishes of the people of this Island and embraced the Good Friday Agreement.

This is a great day for Sinn Fein and a great day for Nationalists, it is time Bertie Ahern and Michael McDowell listened to the people of Northern Ireland and respected the Mandate they have given Sinn Fein.

Um, how? You can proclaim this as a victory for SF, I look at this as a defeat for moderate unionism. But now the largest party in the north refuses to enter power sharing with SF, and their superior success means they're unlikely to change their pov because they'll see their success as a mandate to continue their policy.

On the ground this looks like a great day, but for the actual reality it means the peace process is worse off than ever before. Please explain how it is different.

mycroft

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

You don't believe in democracy then? Or is your version of democracy, only the people who vote the way you want will get accepted and not be slagged?

I always do find a certain kind of Irony from people who support a party who have a paramilitary wing dedicated to bringing about politic change via physical force, now talking about a "lack of respect" for democracy.....

A Dub in Glasgo

oscarBravo wrote:

Where in the definition of democracy does it say that if a majority [1] vote for something, it's not stupid and contemptible? Do you suppose opposition parties should fold their tents and disband their parties because more people voted for the other crowd?

Well, it is up to each individual. If you think it is OK to describe the voters who elect an MP as somewhat contemptible or deservering of pity, that is entirely your choice. I see that attitude as someone who does not believe in the democratic will of the people.

There is a difference between the action of a political opposite who might not like the way the vote went and someone who does not believe that certain people deserve to exercise their rights without them being subjected to a slagging for having the audacity to vote for someone that the slagger does not agree with. I assume you know there is a difference and you are just playing devils advocate. Surely you cannot hold this type of disdain for the democratic process...?

[1] ...or whatever small percentage is required in FPTP voting.

Yep, agree with you there on the democratic credentials of FPTP. What about West Belfast with 70.5% of voters who some here view with contempt or pity? Do those people deserve this slagging?

A Dub in Glasgo

oscarBravo wrote:

I'll repeat a point I made in the other thread: I see no reason to respect a point of view just because a majority of a particular group of people express it.

And I will repeat my reply by linking to it

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=2713280&postcount=24

Maoltuile

Sand wrote:

If anything positive arises from this it may be cross community tactical voting to try and prevent terrrorists on one hand and extremists on the other gaining seats.

I'm wondering at the distinction you seem to be drawing. No-one should be under any illusions about the Provos, but the DUP are on the same hymn-sheet as the loyalist paramilitaries, the good Rev. McCrea wasn't averse to sharing a public platform with 'King Rat', not so long ago.

Hopefully when theyre forced into a hardplace the UUP and the SDLP will engage in voting pacts in future elections to try and somehow keep the center ground together.

Given Trimble's typically selfish and petulant attitude, I'd give no chance of that. Trimble has in the past called for votes to go to the DUP ahead of pro-Agreement parties like the SDLP(!)

(He famously responded to such a proposal by Alliance (in Assembly elections) by _demanding_ that the AP withdraw from all races, even ones they were more likely to win than the UUP)

is sad however to see how people are rejecting the peace proccess on both sides by punishing the parties that created it and supported it. It wasnt the DUP or SF/IRA that made the peace proccess - the collapse of the peace proccess and their increasing power isnt unconnected.

Oh, come on. Anyone who knows anything *knows* that it was Hume-Adams that started this. The UUP only came on because they were being leaned on by the Brits (who were in turn being leaned on by the Yanks).

Trimble was hung out to dry by Blair and Ahern - he staked his political career on a written guarantee from Tony that SF/IRA would have to decommission before entering power and he was sold out.

With Trimble as a "friend", the Agreement didn't need any enemies...

ishmael whale

About the best summing up of the result comes from Newton Emerson’s Portadown News last week.

http://www.portadownnews.com/02May05.htm
“One of Northern Ireland’s best-known institutions is set to disappear, it has emerged. ‘Sure It’s Only a Few Eejits Ruining it for the Rest of Us.’ has been a part of everyday life here for over 35 years, however from next week this much-loved staple will no longer be available.

irish1 wrote:

it is time Bertie Ahern and Michael McDowell listened to the people of Northern Ireland and respected the Mandate they have given Sinn Fein.

You seem to flip between respecting a mandate obtained in Northern Ireland, and respecting the all Ireland vote on the GFA with a little too much speed and too little reflection.

Certainly SF's mandate has to be acknowledged, but on these results it carries less weight that the DUP's mandate. So where does that leave you.

Maoltuile

ishmael whale wrote:

About the best summing up of the result comes from Newton Emerson’s Portadown News last week.

http://www.portadownnews.com/02May05.htm
“One of Northern Ireland’s best-known institutions is set to disappear, it has emerged. ‘Sure It’s Only a Few Eejits Ruining it for the Rest of Us.’ has been a part of everyday life here for over 35 years, however from next week this much-loved staple will no longer be available.

Emerson should stick to the more visual gags, which he's *very* good at indeed. His more verbose stuff tends to flop (his Irish Times column gets very tired, very fast).

hawkmoon269

irish1 wrote:

These stats can't be ignored, Sinn Fein represent the majority of Nationalists and have been consistently growing their vote. So while posters come on here and bash Sinn Fein at every opportunity the majority of Nationalists who actually live in Northern Ireland support Sinn Fein.

Sinn Fein can and will deliver peace, it is now time that the DUP respected the wishes of the people of this Island and embraced the Good Friday Agreement.

This is a great day for Sinn Fein and a great day for Nationalists, it is time Bertie Ahern and Michael McDowell listened to the people of Northern Ireland and respected the Mandate they have given Sinn Fein.

DUP will never, ever, ever accept the GFA. Fact. Anyone who thinks they will, is sadly deluded.

This is most emphatically NOT a great day for Nationalists.

I am a Nationalist, and you do not speak for me.

Today is a bad day for legitimate, consitutional nationalism.

SF/IRA people are traitors and scumbags. {mod edit to remove unfounded accusation} - it's as simple and plain as that to anyone who has eyes to see.

AmenToThat

oscarBravo wrote:

I'll repeat a point I made in the other thread: I see no reason to respect a point of view just because a majority of a particular group of people express it.

Well under those circumstances you cant expect those who voted for SF to give a damn about your views on certain issues and take your point of view on board and weigh up the pluses and nagatives of your opinion if you dont respect them and their mandate.
Its a two way street, seems to me you only want the traffic driving one way on it though.

AmenToThat

hawkmoon269 wrote:

I am a Nationalist, and you do not speak for me.

No but he does speak for the majority of Northern nationalists who bothered to turn up at polling booths yesterday and lets not forget the majority would have been even bigger if it hadnt been for those nice DUP/UUP types who like to go for casual 'walks' during the summer months ticking the box beside the name of SDLP leader today.
He said he felt there was nothing wrong with members of the unionist community voting for him (which of course there isnt and on one level it is good to see) but lets not forget some of those who would have voted for him will be of the above mentioned 'walking variety' and who knows maybe even worse!
Yet Durkan sees no problem with them voting for him but objects to SF types.
Hypocrisy pure and simple
Mind you theres plenty of that to go round on this little island.

Villain

mycroft wrote:

And this a good thing?

Not imo, I was just pointing out how things stand. I do believe it shows that Trimble has suffered because after he had received his huge mandate he failed to deliver the deal with Sinn Fein that would have seen an end to the IRA

mycroft wrote:

SF's increase was marginal to say the least I recal you saying the a similar dip in support during a recent opinion poll was within the margin of error. One could argue that SF failed to capitilise better on the SDLP's lack of real leadership coming into this, and it's gains are disappointing in this respect.

That was in an opinion poll mycroft not a general election, and imo given the huge negative media coverage of SF they have done very well by continuing to increase their share of the vote.

mycroft wrote:

And the DUP have noticed a more significant rise........

Certainly and now this must help bring peace to the people who have voted for them.

mycroft wrote:

So let me get this straight, we can't critise SF because they're more popular than the SDLP? By that rational, FF are above reproach, as are labour and george bush....

Where did I say you can't critise them??? What I believe is that people should respect the beliefs of the people who actually live in the North on both sides.

mycroft wrote:

Um, how? You can proclaim this as a victory for SF, I look at this as a defeat for moderate unionism. But now the largest party in the north refuses to enter power sharing with SF, and their superior success means they're unlikely to change their pov because they'll see their success as a mandate to continue their policy.

On the ground this looks like a great day, but for the actual reality it means the peace process is worse off than ever before. Please explain how it is different.

IMO The DUP will enter powersharing with SF in time, the majority of people voted for the GFA and these people want peace, imo the IRA will cease all activities then the DUP will have to move or they will face the same results that have met Mr Trimble this weekend. Do remember how close we were to a deal before xmas imo the DUP will move but the IRA will have to move first

Sinn Fein continue to represent the majority of nationalists and they have grown their vote if thats not a victory I don't know what it is.

boidey

Sinn Fein have increased their vote despite the large media coverage of the McCartney murder and the Northern Bank Robbery along with the bashing from McDowell etc. The SDLP have lost out to Sinn Fein but still have 3 seats.

These stats can't be ignored, Sinn Fein represent the majority of Nationalists and have been consistently growing their vote. So while posters come on here and bash Sinn Fein at every opportunity the majority of Nationalists who actually live in Northern Ireland support Sinn Fein.

Sinn Fein can and will deliver peace, it is now time that the DUP respected the wishes of the people of this Island and embraced the Good Friday Agreement.

This is a great day for Sinn Fein and a great day for Nationalists, it is time Bertie Ahern and Michael McDowell listened to the people of Northern Ireland and respected the Mandate they have given Sinn Fein.

WTF?? SF deliver peace? The political party with the military wing that passing the time with widespread gangsterism. It may have been a good day for SF but I'm more inclined to celebrate the fact that my MP is not someone who saw nothing wrong with the shooting a mother of 10 children in the back of the head.
Do ya remember a previous electoral slogan of SF that went
"one people, one voice" ? Shades of a certain italian facist. SF has about the same respect for democracy.
Maybe I'll come round to your way of thinking but right now
I'll decline

oscarBravo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Well, it is up to each individual. If you think it is OK to describe the voters who elect an MP as somewhat contemptible or deservering of pity, that is entirely your choice. I see that attitude as someone who does not believe in the democratic will of the people.

I don't see why. I haven't suggested that the elected candidates be prevented in any way from taking office or representing their electorate.

There's nothing in the definition of democracy that says I have to restrain from criticising what I see as a stupid choice. If someone does something I see as stupid, I call it. Jim McDaid driving the wrong way down a motorway while blotto was stupid and contemptible, but I don't see anyone being criticised for saying so.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

There is a difference between the action of a political opposite who might not like the way the vote went and someone who does not believe that certain people deserve to exercise their rights without them being subjected to a slagging for having the audacity to vote for someone that the slagger does not agree with.

I would cheerfully slag off anyone who voted for Dana. I don't see that this is undemocratic of me. If something strikes me as a severe error of judgement, I don't see why I should hold back from saying so just because a large number of people make the same error.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

What about West Belfast with 70.5% of voters who some here view with contempt or pity? Do those people deserve this slagging?

I don't see why I should be forced to respect the choice of someone who chooses something I find repugnant.

I notice no-one addressed my BNP analogy.

oscarBravo

AmenToThat wrote:

Well under those circumstances you cant expect those who voted for SF to give a damn about your views on certain issues and take your point of view on board and weigh up the pluses and nagatives of your opinion if you dont respect them and their mandate.

What, the SF supporters on this board are suddenly going to stop accepting and respecting my opinions? I'm not sure how I'll cope with the drastic effect that will have on my lifestyle.

AmenToThat wrote:

Its a two way street, seems to me you only want the traffic driving one way on it though.

Where have I suggested that anyone should be required to care about my opinions? I don't express views here for the purpose of influencing SF voters.

Let me be clear: I don't expect anyone to show any more respect for my opinion than I do for anyone else's. If you think my opinion is stupid and contemptible, fine. It's not like you thinking that is likely to change my mind.

A Dub in Glasgo

oscarBravo wrote:

I don't see why. I haven't suggested that the elected candidates be prevented in any way from taking office or representing their electorate.

There's nothing in the definition of democracy that says I have to restrain from criticising what I see as a stupid choice. If someone does something I see as stupid, I call it. Jim McDaid driving the wrong way down a motorway while blotto was stupid and contemptible, but I don't see anyone being criticised for saying so. I would cheerfully slag off anyone who voted for Dana. I don't see that this is undemocratic of me. If something strikes me as a severe error of judgement, I don't see why I should hold back from saying so just because a large number of people make the same error. I don't see why I should be forced to respect the choice of someone who chooses something I find repugnant.

As I have said, that is your choice and nobody is denying that you have the right to make that choice. If it makes you feel better about yourself then go ahead, slag and generalise the people you disagree with. To me, that reveals a lot about you.

I notice no-one addressed my BNP analogy.

What exactly is the analogy?

oscarBravo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

If it makes you feel better about yourself then go ahead, slag and generalise the people you disagree with.

You should read more carefully. I criticised the choice they made, not the people who made it. I'm not making generalisations about them; I'm criticising what I see as a stupid thing they've done.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

To me, that reveals a lot about you.

And you accuse me of generalising? You creatively misread my posts, and now you think you know me?

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

What exactly is the analogy?

There are none so blind as them that will not see.

A Dub in Glasgo

oscarBravo wrote:

You should read more carefully. I criticised the choice they made, not the people who made it. I'm not making generalisations about them; I'm criticising what I see as a stupid thing they've done.

You jump into the thread when I ask Sand about his slagging of the voters. You claim there is nothing wrong with it then you come out with

'I would cheerfully slag off anyone who voted for Dana. I don't see that this is undemocratic of me.'

I'm not making generalisations about them; I'm criticising what I see as a stupid thing they've done. And you accuse me of generalising? You creatively misread my posts, and now you think you know me?

Englighten me again. You jump into the thread to challenge me when I point out to Sand that his slagging of the people who vote for a party that he does not like. You defended the right for someone to do this and go on to state

'I would cheerfully slag off anyone who voted for Dana. I don't see that this is undemocratic of me.'

I haven't got the faintest idea of who you are but I can only go on your public posting on matters and in this matter, you are quite happy to slag off anyone who voted for someone you do not agree with.

There are none so blind as them that will not see.

Not interested in the topic at hand then?

hawkmoon269

hawkmoon269 wrote:

DUP will never, ever, ever accept the GFA. Fact. Anyone who thinks they will, is sadly deluded.

This is most emphatically NOT a great day for Nationalists.

I am a Nationalist, and you do not speak for me.

Today is a bad day for legitimate, consitutional nationalism.

SF/IRA people are traitors and scumbags. {mod edit to remove unfounded accusation} - it's as simple and plain as that to anyone who has eyes to see.

hawkmoon,I've removed your specefic allegations in your post as you would have to prove them ie that Adams and McGuinness have personally murdered people.you would have been correct if you stated they supported the murder of people or that they supported people who had murdered others. But specefic accuasions relating to they them selves carrying out murder are to my knowledge unfounded and if you have any evidence of that, you'd best either present the conviction here or if there is none and you still have evidence, then I'd suggest you go with it to the appropriate authorities.

oscarBravo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

You jump into the thread when I ask Sand about his slagging of the voters. You claim there is nothing wrong with it then you come out with

'I would cheerfully slag off anyone who voted for Dana. I don't see that this is undemocratic of me.'

sigh. Allow me to rephrase that one sentence that you manage to pounce on as opposed to the view I expressed in every other post in this thread: "I would cheerfully slag off a decision by anyone to vote for Dana."

Now that the diversionary tactics are out of the way, remind me why I should be forced to respect what I see as a stupid, shortsighted, retrograde action just because a lot of people do it?

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Englighten me again. You jump into the thread to challenge me when I point out to Sand that his slagging of the people who vote for a party that he does not like. You defended the right for someone to do this and go on to state

'I would cheerfully slag off anyone who voted for Dana. I don't see that this is undemocratic of me.'

Couldn't find another example of what you decided to think I mean, so you quote one minor misphrase twice? That's what I mean by creative.

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

I haven't got the faintest idea of who you are but I can only go on your public posting on matters and in this matter, you are quite happy to slag off anyone who voted for someone you do not agree with.

And you're quite happy to ignore a point I actually made because it's easier to jump up and down about a point you think I made. Now that I've clarified, want to try again?

A Dub in Glasgo wrote:

Not interested in the topic at hand then?

Whatever. When you feel like answering the points I've raised instead of dancing on the head of a pin, come back to me.

oscarBravo

oscarBravo wrote:

remind me why I should be forced to respect what I see as a stupid, shortsighted, retrograde action just because a lot of people do it?

Well you should respect their right to come to that decision, whilst not respecting the decision or rather disagreeing with the decision itself.
Thats what you are doing isnt it?

MT

I find the attempts by SF apologists on this thread to portray this election result as a great victory for the party of violence as risible. In the months prior to this election Republican 'activists' up here were bragging about the 7 or 8 seats they'd easily take. The 'traitors' in the SDLP would be cleansed from the electoral map with what would be yet another stunning increase in the SF share of the vote. Indeed, Mitchel McLoughlin informed us all not long before the election that SF would emerge as the largest party in the north.

The result - SF's huge leap amounted to only one extra seat. Rather than collapse, the SDLP retained three seats seeing off in particular a much humbled McLoughlin in Foyle. Mark Durkan didn't so much role over and die as SF and their intimidating activists in the constituency had seemed to predict but rather thrashed the Republican hopeful by a good 5000 votes or so.

And as for SF emerging as the largest party - that honour went to the equally vile DUP. They garnered 33% of the vote in contrast to SF’s 24% - so another case of McLoughlin inserting his foot in his mouth. And then let’s look at momentum, SF had an increase in their vote of a measly 2.6%. Not a patch on the whopping boast for Protestant Jihad… sorry, the DUP which garnered an increase of 11%. So, it’s clear that the extremists in SF have not become the largest party, haven’t taken 7/8 seats and haven’t increased their share of the vote by anywhere near as much as the other pack of extremists in the DUP. I’d say a rather disappointing election, all in all, for SF given their arrogant predictions earlier this year.

Finally, considering that the three SDLP seats are now held by severe critics of Republican violence and criminality it’s likely that SF will struggle to make any future inroads into the North’s Nationalist vote.

cdebru

IMO

it is far more likely that this result will lead to an overall agreement

the DUP want power sharing and they know that they have to share power with SF
SF want power sharing and know that the IRA has to go away before the DUP will share power
Any deal struck between SF and the DUP is far more likely to stick than a deal between any other combination of parties
the DUP will not have a more hardline unionist party sniping at them and how they sold out the union likewise SF will not have a more nationalist/republican party sniping at them
I reckon a new deal will be done followed by fresh elections to the assembly which will allow the DUP to say the unionist people have endorsed the deal done by them and increase their assembly representation
this would also suit SF who probably feel they could increase their assembly seats as well

A Dub in Glasgo

I’d say a rather disappointing election, all in all, for SF given their arrogant predictions earlier this year.

Finally, considering that the three SDLP seats are now held by severe critics of Republican violence and criminality it’s likely that SF will struggle to make any future inroads into the North’s Nationalist vote.

It is very unlikely the South Belfast will be retained by the SDLP in the future. The DUP will sweep up the remaining Unionist votes to get the seat next time.

SF increased their seat tally by 25%

SF increased their share of the vote by 2.6%

SDLP seat tally has stayed the same

SDLP share of the vote went down by 3.5%

Looking at the SDLP seats
South Belfast: A 3.9% majority with the SDLP up 1.4%. DUP (2nd) up 28.4%. Unionists unlikely to let the SDLP in again. SF (4th) vote up 1.4%
Foyle: A 13.1% majority with the SDLP vote down 3.9%. SF up 6.6%
South Down: A 19% majority with the SDLP vote down 1.6%. SF up 6.1%

As can be seen, SF are the main challengers for 2 of those seats and their vote is rising whilest the SDLP vote is decreasing. The other seat will probably go to the DUP next time.

Looking at the SF seats
West Belfast: A 55.9% majority. SF share up 4.4%. SDLP share down 4.3%
Mid Ulster: A 24.2% majority. SF share down 3.5%. DUP (2nd) share down 7.6%. SDLP (3rd) share up 0.6%
West Tyrone: A 11.5% majority. SF share down 1.9%. Ind. (2nd) share up 27.4%. SDLP (4th) share down 19.6%
Fermanagh & South Tyrone: A 9.4% majority. SF share up 4.1%. DUP (2nd) share up 28.8%. SDLP (4th) share down 3.9%
Newry & Armagh: A 16.2% majority. SF share up 10.2%. SDLP (2nd) share down 12.2%

There is only 1 seat were the SDLP are main challengers and their vote went down substantially with a substantial increase in the SF vote. The only anomoly is the Independent in West Tyrone and if he joins the SDLP, they may have a challenge there.

To imply that this election has been disappointing for SF is madness. With the almost constant SF bashing in the media during the last 6 months, I am surprised at how well SF have done. Nationalist voters obviously see SF as the best bet to take them forward to settlement.

mycroft

irish1 wrote:

Not imo, I was just pointing out how things stand. I do believe it shows that Trimble has suffered because after he had received his huge mandate he failed to deliver the deal with Sinn Fein that would have seen an end to the IRA

Trimble made promises to his electorate about IRA disarming pre implimentation of the full GFA. Trimble failed because of SF/IRA stalling and shifting of goalposts.

That was in an opinion poll mycroft not a general election, and imo given the huge negative media coverage of SF they have done very well by continuing to increase their share of the vote.

And as pointed out by MT the rise is moderately insignificant. While I'll admit theres a rise, you snorted, and said the fall was within the margin of error, such a small rise, is pretty medicore.

Certainly and now this must help bring peace to the people who have voted for them.

I'm sorry do you listen to the other side? The DUP have harden their stance are a much less flexible negotiators than the UUP. They've made statements about not entering into power sharing with SF.

Where did I say you can't critise them??? What I believe is that people should respect the beliefs of the people who actually live in the North on both sides.

Irish1 wrote:

Sinn Fein represent the majority of Nationalists and have been consistently growing their vote. So while posters come on here and bash Sinn Fein at every opportunity

The implication of above is that we should not critise SF.

IMO The DUP will enter powersharing with SF in time, the majority of people voted for the GFA and these people want peace, imo the IRA will cease all activities then the DUP will have to move or they will face the same results that have met Mr Trimble this weekend. Do remember how close we were to a deal before xmas imo the DUP will move but the IRA will have to move first

And this flies in the face of everything thats happened in the past few months. Combined with the extra scalps the DUP garnered this election and IRA extra curicular activity these past few months, theres no reason to think the DUP are going to be more reasonable and open to talks, furthermore the IRA's continued criminality demostrates they're no where near voluntarily winding down.

Sinn Fein continue to represent the majority of nationalists and they have grown their vote if thats not a victory I don't know what it is.

You went into the election the embattled underdogs fighting "british government smears" your prefered position; you've come away from this without significant gains, despite the fact that your natural rivals had no leadership coming into this election and struggling to find a voice. You've walked away, now facing a rejuvinated DUP and you lack on their side one of the unionist architects of the peace process. And this is a good day?

MT

The move in the wake of this election by party apologists to claim it as a huge boost for Sinn Fein is as much an illusory con trick as their posturing after the Meath by-election. Just as was the case then, Sinn Fein’s share of the vote went up due to an over all fall in voting. The small increase of 2.6% in their vote was not due to winning over converts from other parties but the result of getting out their core vote when many moderate voters failed to turn up. Exactly the same thing occurred in Meath where the number of votes cast for SF didn’t increase but the percentage did due to a considerable drop in turn-out elsewhere.

So the bragging we’ll now endure from many supporters is based upon nothing more than the illusory increase the party experienced earlier this year during the Dail by-election. As for winning people over to their view point and strengthening the support for their arguments that will never happen as long as the appeal solely to their own voters and ignore everyone else.

It’s interesting that the subdued reaction of some of the Republicans up here yesterday is possibly an indication that they realise the party will experience little further growth while tailoring their approach to suit - and only canvassing in - the Movement’s diehard fiefdoms. I reckon the trail off in the increase in the SF vote in recent years has now found its ceiling of about 25% of the total share. And this 1 in 4 status of the party is hardly a sweeping endorsement of Gerry and the gang.

irish1 wrote:

These stats can't be ignored, Sinn Fein represent the majority of Nationalists and have been consistently growing their vote. So while posters come on here and bash Sinn Fein at every opportunity the majority of Nationalists who actually live in Northern Ireland support Sinn Fein.

You have no way of knowing who the majority of Nationalists that live in Northern Ireland support. Given the low turn out of about 60% they could just as easily support the SDLP more than Sinn Fein. Indeed, given that moderates have stayed away from the poles in increasing numbers up here in recent years it’s much more likely that on a full turn-out it’d be the SDLP that would romp home as winners on the Nationalist side of the divide. You’d be much closer to the reality if you rephrased your claim by stating that it is a majority of extreme sectarian Nationalists in NI that support SF.

irish1 wrote:

Sinn Fein can and will deliver peace, it is now time that the DUP respected the wishes of the people of this Island and embraced the Good Friday Agreement.

Sinn Fein have had more than a decade to deliver an end to IRA violence so on what basis do claim they will deliver peace? Based on the party’s record I’d say they either can’t or won’t. And when will SF respect the wishes of the people of this island and embrace the Good Friday Agreement and bring an end to the IRA, its violence and its criminality? You see, both the extremes in NI are as bad as each other when it comes to picking and choosing what popular wishes they will and will not respect.

irish1 wrote:

… it is time Bertie Ahern and Michael McDowell listened to the people of Northern Ireland and respected the Mandate they have given Sinn Fein.

You could say exactly the same thing for the much larger mandate of the DUP. So which side do we respect? Is it to be the party of IRA violence or the party of Protestant Jihad? If I were either of Bert or Mike I’d choose to ignore the ravings of both of them.

Cork

[/QUOTE]
it is time Bertie Ahern and Michael McDowell listened to the people of Northern Ireland and respected the Mandate they have given Sinn Fein..[/QUOTE]

And SF also need to listen and abandon their links to criminal organisations like the IRA.

What date did SF 100% become a constitional republican party?