Tell Me About Ireland and The Irish

paulcr

Moriarty wrote:

Well, there'd be far less stigma in flying it in another country where the vast majority wouldn't understand the political undertones and would take it at face value as just the national flag.

I see your point.

Moriarty wrote:

Would you still be happy to fly it if it was intrinsically linked with a political party which was associated with/in control of a large and well armed private paramilitary force that has killed thousands?

Well we kind of have that with the current administration. Maybe not here in the states, but certainly aboard. Look at all flag burnings overseas. Nothing like a good old american flag burning to draw a crowd.

GuanYin

I find it amusing that many here think Ireland has the same amount of racism as other countries.

What I would say that Ireland probably has less violent hate crime that other countries, however being a subject of racist abuse and having lived in quite a few major cities and travelled most of the world, I would say that Ireland would be very very high in the rank for openly hostile racist abuse to strangers.

solas

I would say that Ireland would be very very high in the rank for openly hostile racist abuse to strangers.

do you find that's the case in Ireland in general or Dublin to be specific?

simu

psi wrote:

I find it amusing that many here think Ireland has the same amount of racism as other countries.

What I would say that Ireland probably has less violent hate crime that other countries, however being a subject of racist abuse and having lived in quite a few major cities and travelled most of the world, I would say that Ireland would be very very high in the rank for openly hostile racist abuse to strangers.

Well, I was thinking that there's no organised racism in Ireland like the far-right and Neo-Nazi groups that exist in some other countries in Europe.

What is openly hostile racist abuse to strangers like? Do people actually go up to random strangers who "look foreign" or whatever and insult them? What kind of people do this? Even if they are racist, would the normal societal constraints on what you can and cannot say to strangers not put them off? (Just wondering how stuff like that takes place not having witnessed it myself).

Memnoch

ireland is an incredibly racist and discriminatory place, but there are some very nice people here.

On the surface there are the idiots, the people who walk around in 3 stripe track suits and will abuse people to their face, often incorrectly which can be quite amusing. Such as telling my pakistani gf to go back to china?

Underneath is the more perverse deeper kind of racism. one that spreads from selfishness and greed, to give oneself an advantage over others on grounds that are beyong their control. This you will find when looking for jobs. Most irish people will poo-poo the open racists, but aren't better themselves when it comes to anything that actually matters, i.e. jobs. But hey they don't go around calling people "black bastards" so they can feel better about it.

simu

Memnoch wrote:

Most irish people will poo-poo the open racists, but aren't better themselves when it comes to anything that actually matters, i.e. jobs. But hey they don't go around calling people "black bastards" so they can feel better about it.

Well, there's always these guys.

pork99

Memnoch wrote:

Such as telling my pakistani gf to go back to china?

Whoever said that should be sterilised on the basis that they are too stupid to breed.

Memnoch wrote:

Underneath is the more perverse deeper kind of racism. one that spreads from selfishness and greed, to give oneself an advantage over others on grounds that are beyong their control. This you will find when looking for jobs. Most irish people will poo-poo the open racists, but aren't better themselves when it comes to anything that actually matters, i.e. jobs. But hey they don't go around calling people "black bastards" so they can feel better about it.

Personally I've worked in a software company which was very multi-cultural with the best people for the job getting hired regardless of caste, creed or colour. It was that way because the company simply had to hire the best available talent in order to compete.

I think that company was fairly typical. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe some Irish companies operate closed shops through unions, having to be related to the right person and the like.

I've certainly noticed in my older relatives an almost casual, thoughtless racism. These would be people in their 70s and 80s and even older, coming out with gems like "well I've nothing against the educated black but..." and "I'd never let my daughter marry a darky" :eek: But they grew up when there was still a British empire and are sort of relics of that period of history.

As for the flag thing, unfortunately if you see a tricolour flying from someone's house you do think "IRA". While it's certainly not a crime to fly this country's flag wherever and whenever you wish most of the time, being a member of the IRA is a criminal offence. You may not be aware of that if you get your information about this country from some Irish-Americans who have some very odd ideas about us. (Ah yes Irish-Americans, they'll do anything for Ireland. Except f-ing live here of course)

GuanYin

simu wrote:

Well, I was thinking that there's no organised racism in Ireland like the far-right and Neo-Nazi groups that exist in some other countries in Europe.

Well there are, they just aren't particularly organised.

What is openly hostile racist abuse to strangers like? Do people actually go up to random strangers who "look foreign" or whatever and insult them?

Yup pretty much.

The abuse is ranged and varied and stretches from people slowing down and shouting racist abuse from cars to people coming up in bars and clubs and either attempting to start a fight or just being abusive (someone has actually accused me of "taking Irish jobs and women").

What kind of people do this? Even if they are racist, would the normal societal constraints on what you can and cannot say to strangers not put them off? (Just wondering how stuff like that takes place not having witnessed it myself).

Well why would you witness it simu? The kind of people who do it are morons. Usually men, but quite a few women too. The fact of the matter is, that because these people view foreigners as inferior, the normal social constraints don't apply to them.

I've spent long periods in London, Paris and various partsof Germany as well as many US cities none of these places compare to Dublin in terms of the sheer ignorance of people towards "foreigners" or the spontaneous abuse the will give them. Of course, this is just my experience, but I think if you were to survey the white catholic Irish demograph of society they might have a very different opinion on how much racism there is in Ireland, compared to the opinions of everyone else.

simu

psi wrote:

Well why would you witness it simu?

I observe how people behave with one another in public places but of course, this is far from giving a realistic view.

Anyway, another question for people: where has this hatred of some Irish people for foreigners sprung from all of a sudden? It's not like we have a history of slavery and discrimination against people of a different skin colour like in the US south that might have left residual traces. People might be afraid of foreigners "stealing jobs" etc but it's pretty obvious that the standard of living is better here for just about everyone since the economic boom. Where does this stuff suddenly spring from? Does it come from fear of the unfamiliar? Even then, fear and hatred seem a long way from one another - hatred requires a lot of effort and stress.

Redleslie2

simu wrote:

Anyway, another question for people: where has this hatred of some Irish people for foreigners sprung from all of a sudden?

There's nothing sudden about it. It's a conservative country and always has been. What do you expect.

simu

Redleslie2 wrote:

There's nothing sudden about it. It's a conservative country and always has been. What do you expect.

I don't think there's anything obvious about racism, I don't think it's something that would occour to a person all by themselves. It seems more like a product of long-standing conflict between two groups (others may disagree with this). To be more precise, it's not just racism based on instant fear of unusual looking faces we're talking about here - there's a whole ideology of the superiority of white Europeans behind it as well (White Germans etc who came to Ireland don't seem to get the same amount of grief although they are also from a fairly different culture).

Thinking about it, maybe the idea got transmitted here from countries Irish people emigrated to - for example, that poor Irish people adopted the anti-black racism of Wasps in America because it meant that they weren't quite at the bottom of the heap. That was my own first experience of racism - I lived in America for a while as a kid, my family went for a weekend to Boston, we met up with recent Irish arrivals in Boston and were pretty shocked at how nasty they were being to black taxi-drivers etc. Were they trying to fit into some sort of crude stereotype they had of how a white American should act or what? Otherwise, why would Irish country people whose main previous experience of black people was most likely the largely sympathetic depictions of blacks on American TV shows suddenly have developed such a massive grudge? I don't know - any thoughts are welcome!

I'm not trying to prove that this sort "white people are the best"-delusion is a nasty import pushed on this wee innocent country - it has taken hold here to some degree and this is a shameful thing but I don't accept that racism is just something that you have to expect from people unless taught otherwise, that's it's their default setting. Or am I being ueber-naive?

Memnoch

It's because you misunderstand what racism really is. Racism isn't hatred of someone because their different. The difference is only an excuse.

Racism works on many levels. First there are the poor of society, the lower socio-economic classes. They are often angry and their life is very depressing and so they direct this anger at anyone as different from them. It's easy to blame someone else for your problems, and also perhaps your failures. "they took our jobs, our money, our women" kind of attitude.

Secondly there is the more elite racism, and this is the true backbone of racism. It's the innate nature of human greed that drives it. It's not about someone else's skin color, it's more about getting an advantage over them, of using them for your own benefit while giving as little as possible in return. Using race and skin color has always just been a convenient method of differentiating out a group of people and giving oneself an artificial advantage over them.

This is now changing in Irish society and the rest of the have's of our planet to use nationality. Where the new "discriminated class" are "immigrants".

Why should it be okay that someone be discriminated against because of their place of birth, something over which they have no control. Yet it's not okay to discriminate against someone because of their skin color, another aspect of them that is beyond their control.

Issues of practicality aside, how does one justify this ethically and morally? I don't think it is possible to justify it, yet people do, because it suits them.

In the end there is only one fundamental truth. Human beings are greedy and selfish creatures. Once you realise this everything else will fall into place by itself. The haves will always want to keep and prevent the have nots from joining them. Because without the have nots there are no haves.

simu

Memnoch wrote:

Racism works on many levels. First there are the poor of society, the lower socio-economic classes. They are often angry and their life is very depressing and so they direct this anger at anyone as different from them. It's easy to blame someone else for your problems, and also perhaps your failures. "they took our jobs, our money, our women" kind of attitude.

Secondly there is the more elite racism, and this is the true backbone of racism. It's the innate nature of human greed that drives it. It's not about someone else's skin color, it's more about getting an advantage over them, of using them for your own benefit while giving as little as possible in return. Using race and skin color has always just been a convenient method of differentiating out a group of people and giving oneself an artificial advantage over them.

But then the issue isn't strictly racism - it's people trying to screw other people over using any excuse thay can find - their origin or skin colour if it's convenient, for instance. (being pedantic - it sucks just as much to get abuse for the reasons you gave)

In the end there is only one fundamental truth. Human beings are greedy and selfish creatures. Once you realise this everything else will fall into place by itself. The haves will always want to keep and prevent the have nots from joining them. Because without the have nots there are no haves.

It's like that now but it could change - for example, most people who are well-off need to have many other people on the same level around to make their way of living sustainable. I don't think it's too much to aspire to that everyone have their basic needs like food, shelter, health services and basic education seen to.

Memnoch

simu wrote:

But then the issue isn't strictly racism - it's people trying to screw other people over using any excuse thay can find - their origin or skin colour if it's convenient, for instance. (being pedantic - it sucks just as much to get abuse for the reasons you gave)

in my view racism itself has never been the issue. The real issue has always been the underlying reason behind the racism. It is precisely because these reasons have never been acknowledged, exposed and dealt that racism is still so rife with society today. Racism itself is a symptom of a much greater disease of the inherent selfishness that underlies human nature. And it will never go away until this is dealt with.