Tell Me About Ireland and The Irish

paulcr

I mistakenly posted this in the wrong section.

I would like to know more about Ireland and its people.

Questions: Why do so many reisidents bad mouth Ireland/Dublin?
Is there a fair amount of prejudice/discrimination? Is Ireland an expensive place to live/visit? Is it a good place to visit? Why are so many of the youth looking to move elsewhere?

And anything else you are willing to offer.

Beruthiel

paulcr wrote:

Questions: Why do so many reisidents bad mouth Ireland/Dublin?

and so many don't bad mouth it
Dublin is like a lot of other cities in the world, it has it's good and bad points. I don't consider it beautiful, not in the Paris/Prague/Rome sense.
Dublin is not Ireland, I consider some parts of Ireland to be truly beautiful.
We do like to complain about our government and the fact that they could do an awful lot more to improve our medical system and transport system, which I consider to be appalling. Life is expensive in Ireland.

Is there a fair amount of prejudice/discrimination?

I would say about the same as anywhere else

Is Ireland an expensive place to live/visit? Is it a good place to visit?

yes, I believe it to be expensive, but it is a wonderful place to visit, Galway, Mayo, Kerry, Cork, Donegal have some breathtaking scenery and I love to visit old celtic sites

Why are so many of the youth looking to move elsewhere?

the Irish are known for their wanderlust, nothing new there

Eoghan-psych

Beruthiel wrote:

the Irish are known for their wanderlust, nothing new there

Useless factoid:

In order for China to account for the same proportion of the US population as we do, there would need to be 10 BILLION Chinese-Americans.

jetsonx

badmouthing: unless you take ultrapatriotic countires like France/USA. The Irish do about the same moaning about their country as other cultures.

prejudice/discrimination : again same as any other country...but discrimination against immigrants could easily get worse depending on how good our economy stays.

expensive/good place to visit: yip we are expensive- that is because of our high labour costs. good place to visit - sure the natives are friendly, - the scenery, food is nice but the culture has taken on rat-race mentality that goes with economic prosperity esp. in our urban areas.

people moving: main reasons for this is our increased wealth...we no longer have to go to foreign shores in desparation for work but it is more of a change thing of scenery thing. irish kids see places like LA and Sydney on TV and say "I want to go there"...plus the Irish can speak the lingo...which is a big factor.

Sleepy

Why do so many reisidents bad mouth Ireland/Dublin?
Ireland, because it's a banana republic where we've become used to having no consistency of government save the "taking care of the boys" corruption. Dublin, because there's a massive social gap between the rich and the normal and possibly an even bigger one between the normal people and the "scumbags". Another part of this is that between the ignorant rich people and the scumbags, us normal people (regardless of income level) are becoming out-numbered.

Is there a fair amount of prejudice/discrimination?
Well, 20 years ago this was still a very pious country. Racism was socially acceptable until a few years ago (and still seems to be quite acceptable in many circles). Add this to a country where there are a lot of people on welfare (mainly through their own laziness I hasten to add) and you'll always find those prepared to hate because they begrudge the help that the immigrants are getting.

Is Ireland an expensive place to live/visit?
Ireland has a rampant "rip-off" culture. You'll be fleeced should you visit.

Is it a good place to visit?
I'd recommend Paris over it tbh.

Why are so many of the youth looking to move elsewhere?
Far away fields always seem greener. We've a history of emmigration so perhaps we're accustomed to the idea. We're sick of incompetent government, no viable alternatives and being ripped off everywhere we go while the rich laugh at the tax paying middle classes. Take your pick.

egan007

paulcr wrote:

I mistakenly posted this in the wrong section.

I would like to know more about Ireland and its people.

Questions:

Why do so many reisidents bad mouth Ireland/Dublin?

Irish people (most) are very proud of their heritage and country and don't like anyone spoiling it -by anyone i mean those who hike prices / are hell bent on ripping you off rather than providing a service.
Also Irish people like to complain, It's not a bad thing it stems from the need to make conversation about anything, just to be talking!
Dublin - generally it's people from "The Country" that complain about Dublin. Generally because dubliners refer to them as being from "The Country"
There is actually very little menace in 95% of anyones complaining / bad mounthing.
It's the other 5% you have to watch out for!

Is there a fair amount of prejudice/discrimination?

Ireland has embraced the world in the past decade and opened it's borders to pretty much anyone that wants to come. They have made tighter regulations on this recently. The result being a country with an overnight diverse population. At one time Ireland was pretty much all Irish people, now there are many different races.
Most people accept and enjoy this wonderfull diversity but some, that have never known any culture but Ireland's have a hard time accepting it. They will with time adapt and accept. The other bunch of people we have are rasists which will always exist in every walk of life along with bittler little men

Is Ireland an expensive place to live/visit?

Yes - I'm a campaigner for taking the price of drinking out down.
Drinking out is important in Ireland - not because you can get drunk (that's a bonus)
but to keep the conversation going! The very heart of being Irish is having the ability to swap life stories with almost anyone in a matter of minutes. Pubs have always facilitated this and i see no reason for it to change.
It has become very expensive for most things, and is largly due to people capatilising on our very strong economy.

Is it a good place to visit?

OH YES, I have travelled far and always love comming back. This is one of a handfull of countries that will allow you to tap into it and fall in love with it.
You may never want to come back or you may never want to leave - it depends on what you are looking for. If you go to the right places, see the right things and most importantly get lost somewhere in Cliften then you will love it.
P.s If you want Sun go to spain - Sun is a bonus here

Why are so many of the youth looking to move elsewhere?

As was said before, nothing new here. This is the very reason there is an established Irish community in Figi.

And anything else you are willing to offer.

Visit a trad irish session im Galway and find out the true meaning of Craic
Go to Kerry and Wicklow and absorb the mountains.
Wonder at the diffenence that Dublin offers
If you get 1 sunnny day marvel how the entire country stops - puts on shorts and complains about the heat

most of all Welcome

simu

Why do so many reisidents bad mouth Ireland/Dublin?

They must have their own reasons. Personally, I think they're both fairly pleasant places.


Is there a fair amount of prejudice/discrimination?

Some but around the same levels as other European countries.

Is Ireland an expensive place to live/visit?

More expensive than other countries in Europe but you should be okay if you plan your expenditure well and you're not unfortunate enough to be born into the bottom 10% of scoiety. :eek:

Is it a good place to visit?

I guess - depends what you want from a holiday.

Why are so many of the youth looking to move elsewhere?

To have experience of life abroad, to live somewhere sunny etc. I don't think that many people move abroad permanently anymore though.

paulcr

jetsonx wrote:

badmouthing: unless you take ultrapatriotic countires like France/USA. The Irish do about the same moaning about their country as other cultures.

You're right about the same amount of complaining as most countries. Although, I don't know how ultrapatriotic most citizens of the US are. We do realize that a fair amount of people looking to relocate to so to the US. Is it true there are more Irish in the US than in Ireland?

On second thought, if you mean loving our country......you're probably right.

Although that doesn't mean our politicians (Bush, etc.) and their policies here and aboard.

Beruthiel

paulcr wrote:

Is it true there are more Irish in the US than in Ireland?.

I heard a figure of 40 million irish descendants all over the world
though
how irish they are now, is another matter

paulcr

Beruthiel wrote:

I heard a figure of 40 million irish descendants all over the world
though
how irish they are now, is another matter

What is the population of Ireland and how is it dispersed (in Ireland)?

Moriarty

4 million in the entire country, ~1.1 million of that in the 'Greater Dublin Area'.

Sand

Why do so many reisidents bad mouth Ireland/Dublin?

People like having a good old fashioned moan I suppose. Its no better or worse than anywhere else at the end of the day, but the weather cant help anyones mood:|

Is there a fair amount of prejudice/discrimination?

Hard to say when I cant really compare it directly to some international measure. Travellers (a.k.a. knackers) are certainly viewed negatively, as are people from Cork, Northsiders, Southsiders, people from west of the Shannon, Dubs, Culchies, people from Cavan/Letrim/Limerick (a.k.a. stab city). Ireland has also had a lot of immigration in the last decade, and according to some points of view burning crosses are being errected in gardens across the country and white sheets are selling in record numbers. In reality, I've never seen any of this rampant racism occuring. To be honest, I dont think were any worse than anywhere else.

I do remember making the mistake of standing behind a black man at a passport control at Zurichs airport in Switzerland though. It became quite clear quite fast that he was going to be grilled for quite some time whilst the "white" line got waved through with a smile and a bit of small talk about the weather. I went to the back of the other line and he was still getting interrogated by the time I was going through. I've never encountered the likes in Ireland.

Is Ireland an expensive place to live/visit?

A pint ranges from 3.50 to 5 euro depending on what/where/when. So thats roughly $4.50 to $6.50. So you can probably make youre own guess from that. Its expensive alright, but a fair part of the expense is taxation and the cost of insurance rather than the goods or profiteering itself. Plenty of Irish people take flights to New York, buy electronic goods etc etc, fly back and still save money by not paying the Irish prices so that tells it own story.

you're not unfortunate enough to be born into the bottom 10% of scoiety.

*someone* will always be in the bottom 10%.

Is it a good place to visit?

I dont know - I guess. Theres the usual attractions like Trinity College, the Book of Kells, Christchurch, Glendalough - I used to live in Wicklow and I always found Loch Dan and Loch Tay as being very scenic - Powerscourt, The Burren, The Yellow Caves ( help me out here Simu), boating on the Shannon, check out Newgrange and the Hill of Tara before our Government runs a bloody motorway through one of the oldest pre-christian sites in Europe, the Boyne battlesite, maybe go see a GAA game at Croke Park and head in Northern Ireland and visit the Giants Causeaway. Ireland isnt that big of a place, so you dont have to feel limited to Dublin. To be honest, you could cover Dublin in two days or less, and apart from the Georgian areas its not very scenic with beggars and so on. Check out Temple Bar during the day, but at night its usually hosting a lot of stag and hen parties across from the UK so drunkeness tends to be prevalent.

Dont count on picking up a sun tan though.

Why are so many of the youth looking to move elsewhere?

Wealth means people can afford to travel abroad now - travelling to the US/UK previously was through economic neccessity, now its for a summer adventure and the experience. People want to go and see whats out there. And given the exsplosion in property prices in Ireland its very, very hard for people my age to buy homes in Ireland so they have little tying them down here.

GeorgeBailey

Sleepy wrote:

Is it a good place to visit?
I'd recommend Paris over it tbh.

You're obvioulsy treating Dublin as the whole of Ireland there.

Stick to the west and you'll be fine. East is crap as are it's inhabitants.

simu

Sand wrote:

*someone* will always be in the bottom 10%.

I know but it's not a great place to be in Ireland.


Other scenic places: West Kerry - the Dingle Peninsula. Dingle's nice if a bit touristy and the scenery further west where the Blasket Islands are is amzaing.

Galway's great as well.

Or check out Cork - it's European capital of culture this year although some insist there's more culture in the average pigsty! :eek:

Sand

I heard a figure of 40 million irish descendants all over the world
though
how irish they are now, is another matter

From what I undertand the Irish America might have a popular image as east coast catholics who arrived in the 1840s and after, but a lot of the 40 million Irish descent is also made up of the Scot-Irish who would have been lowland Scots who settled in Northern Ireland in the 1600s and whose descendants later moved on to the American colonies between 1717-1780. General Patton would be an example of a descendant of these less well know Irish Americans. Given their Scottish ancestry, they might have viewed themselves as Scottish/British rather than Irish and thus the 40 million figure might be even higher.

Although, I don't know how ultrapatriotic most citizens of the US are.

Well, Irish people tend to be less likely to fly the flag from their houses apart from when the World Cup is on, as Irish people who do so tend to attract the attention of the police

paulcr

Sand wrote:

Well, Irish people tend to be less likely to fly the flag from their houses apart from when the World Cup is on, as Irish people who do so tend to attract the attention of the police

Why would you attract the attention of the police?

StupidLikeAFox

IRA and all that......

paulcr

ColHol wrote:

IRA and all that......

I thought that was just in the North.

omnicorp

it's a nice place to live. even the weather and all that isn't so bad, the only major complaint i have is about the amount of litter i see. chewing gum, wrappers and ciggarette butts. the plastic bag tax was a God-send

Eoghan-psych

omnicorp wrote:

it's a nice place to live. even the weather and all that isn't so bad, the only major complaint i have is about the amount of litter i see. chewing gum, wrappers and ciggarette butts. the plastic bag tax was a God-send

Absolutely - that, coupled to the smoking ban, has made a *huge* difference.

Now if they would only legislate against those stupid fluorescent jackets that the language schools make the Spanish kids wear - the place would be only lovely.

Beruthiel

paulcr wrote:

I thought that was just in the North.

some live in the south

Sleepy

paulcr wrote:

Although, I don't know how ultrapatriotic most citizens of the US are.

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the pledge of allegiance mark the start of each school day? That pretty systematically brainwashes the kids into a blindly patriotic state I'd imagine.

I'd imagine most Americans would be shocked if they found out their kids weren't learning the national anthem in school. It's the norm in Ireland.

In the states, it's seemingly normal to hang the stars and stripes out your window, in Ireland it'd be seen as strange to hang the tricolour in your garden(particularly if you actually used a flagpole) and as mentioned by a preivous poster, it'd be very unusual to see this outside of staunchly republican areas of Northern Ireland.

Eoghan-psych

Sleepy wrote:

In the states, it's seemingly normal to hang the stars and stripes out your window, in Ireland it'd be seen as strange to hang the tricolour in your garden(particularly if you actually used a flagpole) and as mentioned by a preivous poster, it'd be very unusual to see this outside of staunchly republican areas of Northern Ireland.

To be honest I think it boils down to security. Think about it this way - does the average Irish person *need* to fly a multicoloured sheet to remind them of who they are and where they come from? I don't think so. But then the average Irish person, and their sense of "Irishness" is the product of several millennia of cultural history.

On the other side of the Atlantic, however, things are very different. The US has been there all of five minutes - even *before* that, we've only known the continent itself was there for about an hour. In Ireland, "old" means "a few thousand years" whereas in the states it means a few centuries.

There doesn't actually seem to *be* an American identity - which is something Europeans have *serious* difficulty understanding. I still don't, and I've lost track of the amount of time I've spent talking to Americans about this. It seems they [sweeping I know, but work with it] actually *need* the whole flag gig, the whole fanatical patriotism gig, to constantly reconfirm their sense of identity - like football supporters or star trek nuts. For Irish people, things go deeper than that.

Rant over.

amp

Jesus where's an grumbling ex-pat when you need one.

scribs

paulcr wrote:

I would like to know more about Ireland and its people.

Come for a visit -no better way to find out more about us - then you can form your own opinion based on facts and not hearsay.

Response to Questions

paulcr wrote:

Why do so many reisidents bad mouth Ireland/Dublin?

Its in our nature - we love a good old complaining session. Even Guinness's latest advertising campaign has picked up this national past-time "Honk if you hate complaining" - Complaining is right up there with spuds with Gravey - as a nation we love it.

paulcr wrote:

Is there a fair amount of prejudice/discrimination?

We like a good fight - so foreigners coming to Ireland shoudnt feel that we are just having a go at them. We fight with each other all the time. Its in our nature. There are 32 counties in Ireland and each county thinks that they are right and outsider are wrong (outsiders being other countys). Even within countys there is fighting. Little villages fight each other all the time. Fighting has become a past-time in Ireland. We even designate a day of the week wherby different villages can beat the living sh*t out of each other with sticks to settle their differences. The Irish term for this is "Hurley"

paulcr wrote:

Is Ireland an expensive place to live/visit? Is it a good place to visit?

Ireland is very expensive to live and to visit - Those of you who complain. There is no point - Just deal with it - go out and get a better job and earn more.

Its a great place to visit especially if you enjoy getting drunk - The Crack is mighty and im convinced women in Ireland are getting better looking by the minute another plus. When I was 18 teh birds didnt look like they do now.

paulcr wrote:

Why are so many of the youth looking to move elsewhere?

Who? - No one I know is moving elsewhere - and im young. Everyone wants to buy a house in Ireland. It will cost you 4 arms and 5 legs but you'll still buy it. Are you sure you just havnt encountered drunken Irish students on J1 Visas or the like - I remember those days we told all teh foreigners we met we were going to leave Ireland and settle down in warmer climates and open beach bars. Three months later we sobered up and came home to pay of our AIB J1 loans.

And anything else you are willing to offer.
- No matter what anyone tells you - Guinness is not good for you - Nothing that is good for you destroys the toilet the way the black stuff does the morning after a session

paulcr

Eoghan-psych wrote:

To be honest I think it boils down to security. Think about it this way - does the average Irish person *need* to fly a multicoloured sheet to remind them of who they are and where they come from? I don't think so. But then the average Irish person, and their sense of "Irishness" is the product of several millennia of cultural history.

On the other side of the Atlantic, however, things are very different. The US has been there all of five minutes - even *before* that, we've only known the continent itself was there for about an hour. In Ireland, "old" means "a few thousand years" whereas in the states it means a few centuries.

There doesn't actually seem to *be* an American identity - which is something Europeans have *serious* difficulty understanding. I still don't, and I've lost track of the amount of time I've spent talking to Americans about this. It seems they [sweeping I know, but work with it] actually *need* the whole flag gig, the whole fanatical patriotism gig, to constantly reconfirm their sense of identity - like football supporters or star trek nuts. For Irish people, things go deeper than that.

Rant over.

Maybe you're right on some of your observations.

But from what I've read Ireland is now experiencing an influx of immigrants. While the US is nothing but immigrants! You may find in a short while the rise of Irish Patriotism (ie flying the flag) to encompass all citizens as Irish.

How do you embrace immigrants? Do they or can they become Irish citizens?
And if the latter be the case, will they need to wrap themselves in the tricolors to assimmilate into the Irish culture? Or will this even be possible?

Yes in the states we do fly the flag on certain occassions, although I've never done so. Am I any less patriotic than other americans? I would answer no, since I did 2 years in the Armed Forces.

Yes we need a symbol to remind us were all on the same team.

But then again I ask you to define what an american looks like.

I venture to guess that would be very difficult.

paulcr

Sleepy wrote:

Correct me if I'm wrong but doesn't the pledge of allegiance mark the start of each school day? That pretty systematically brainwashes the kids into a blindly patriotic state I'd imagine.

I'd imagine most Americans would be shocked if they found out their kids weren't learning the national anthem in school. It's the norm in Ireland.

In the states, it's seemingly normal to hang the stars and stripes out your window, in Ireland it'd be seen as strange to hang the tricolour in your garden(particularly if you actually used a flagpole) and as mentioned by a preivous poster, it'd be very unusual to see this outside of staunchly republican areas of Northern Ireland.

I can't answer to your observation about the pledge of allegiance (its been awhile since I was in school).

I can put it this context. I am catholic and I went to catholic schools and we would recite all the prayers everyday and go to mass all the time.

Am I brainwashed?

I rarely go to church, I never pray.

And I'd say I spent much more time in prayer/mass than reciting the pledge of allegiance.

See my comments on the flag business in my previous post.

Eoghan-psych

paulcr wrote:

Yes in the states we do fly the flag on certain occassions, although I've never done so. Am I any less patriotic than other americans? I would answer no, since I did 2 years in the Armed Forces.

Yes we need a symbol to remind us were all on the same team.

But then again I ask you to define what an american looks like.

I venture to guess that would be very difficult.

I did make a clear caveat that my comments were sweeping generalisations. Certainly, there are Americans - of which you, obviously, are one - who have no need of fanaticism or "fundamentalist" patriotism.

Moriarty

paulcr wrote:

But then again I ask you to define what an american looks like.

<cheap shot>
Somone taking up 1.5 seats in their 8 liter, 5mpg SUV.
</cheap shot>

Marginally more seriously, "patriotism" of certain sorts carrys with it a lot of political baggage here in Ireland. There's also the mindset eoghan refers to - we don't feel the need to wave flags or sing national anthems to feel 100% irish.

A lot of people are dissuaded from the likes of flying the flag because it has become synonymous with the rabid republican fringe. Many no longer feel that the tricolour actually represents "irishness" any more, since it's been coopted so successfully into symbolisim many would not subscribe to.

paulcr

Moriarty wrote:

<cheap shot>
Somone taking up 1.5 seats in their 8 liter, 5mpg SUV.
</cheap shot>

Some truth here!

Moriarty wrote:

Marginally more seriously, "patriotism" of certain sorts carrys with it a lot of political baggage here in Ireland. There's also the mindset eoghan refers to - we don't feel the need to wave flags or sing national anthems to feel 100% irish.

Will then the Irish/Americans must keep the Irish flag manufacturers in business.

Moriarty wrote:

A lot of people are dissuaded from the likes of flying the flag because it has become synonymous with the rabid republican fringe. Many no longer feel that the tricolour actually represents "irishness" any more, since it's been coopted so successfully into symbolisim many would not subscribe to.

Join the club....the right wing political party (Bush) has all but taken ownership of patriotism in this country.

I don't like him or agree with his policies, but that wouldn't stop me from raising the flag if that's what I chose to do.

Moriarty

paulcr wrote:

Join the club....the right wing political party (Bush) has all but taken ownership of patriotism in this country.

Well, there'd be far less stigma in flying it in another country where the vast majority wouldn't understand the political undertones and would take it at face value as just the national flag.

paulcr wrote:

I don't like him or agree with his policies, but that wouldn't stop me from raising the flag if that's what I chose to do.

Would you still be happy to fly it if it was intrinsically linked with a political party which was associated with/in control of a large and well armed private paramilitary force that has killed thousands?

paulcr

Moriarty wrote:

Well, there'd be far less stigma in flying it in another country where the vast majority wouldn't understand the political undertones and would take it at face value as just the national flag.

I see your point.

Moriarty wrote:

Would you still be happy to fly it if it was intrinsically linked with a political party which was associated with/in control of a large and well armed private paramilitary force that has killed thousands?

Well we kind of have that with the current administration. Maybe not here in the states, but certainly aboard. Look at all flag burnings overseas. Nothing like a good old american flag burning to draw a crowd.

GuanYin

I find it amusing that many here think Ireland has the same amount of racism as other countries.

What I would say that Ireland probably has less violent hate crime that other countries, however being a subject of racist abuse and having lived in quite a few major cities and travelled most of the world, I would say that Ireland would be very very high in the rank for openly hostile racist abuse to strangers.

solas

I would say that Ireland would be very very high in the rank for openly hostile racist abuse to strangers.

do you find that's the case in Ireland in general or Dublin to be specific?

simu

psi wrote:

I find it amusing that many here think Ireland has the same amount of racism as other countries.

What I would say that Ireland probably has less violent hate crime that other countries, however being a subject of racist abuse and having lived in quite a few major cities and travelled most of the world, I would say that Ireland would be very very high in the rank for openly hostile racist abuse to strangers.

Well, I was thinking that there's no organised racism in Ireland like the far-right and Neo-Nazi groups that exist in some other countries in Europe.

What is openly hostile racist abuse to strangers like? Do people actually go up to random strangers who "look foreign" or whatever and insult them? What kind of people do this? Even if they are racist, would the normal societal constraints on what you can and cannot say to strangers not put them off? (Just wondering how stuff like that takes place not having witnessed it myself).

Memnoch

ireland is an incredibly racist and discriminatory place, but there are some very nice people here.

On the surface there are the idiots, the people who walk around in 3 stripe track suits and will abuse people to their face, often incorrectly which can be quite amusing. Such as telling my pakistani gf to go back to china?

Underneath is the more perverse deeper kind of racism. one that spreads from selfishness and greed, to give oneself an advantage over others on grounds that are beyong their control. This you will find when looking for jobs. Most irish people will poo-poo the open racists, but aren't better themselves when it comes to anything that actually matters, i.e. jobs. But hey they don't go around calling people "black bastards" so they can feel better about it.

simu

Memnoch wrote:

Most irish people will poo-poo the open racists, but aren't better themselves when it comes to anything that actually matters, i.e. jobs. But hey they don't go around calling people "black bastards" so they can feel better about it.

Well, there's always these guys.

pork99

Memnoch wrote:

Such as telling my pakistani gf to go back to china?

Whoever said that should be sterilised on the basis that they are too stupid to breed.

Memnoch wrote:

Underneath is the more perverse deeper kind of racism. one that spreads from selfishness and greed, to give oneself an advantage over others on grounds that are beyong their control. This you will find when looking for jobs. Most irish people will poo-poo the open racists, but aren't better themselves when it comes to anything that actually matters, i.e. jobs. But hey they don't go around calling people "black bastards" so they can feel better about it.

Personally I've worked in a software company which was very multi-cultural with the best people for the job getting hired regardless of caste, creed or colour. It was that way because the company simply had to hire the best available talent in order to compete.

I think that company was fairly typical. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe some Irish companies operate closed shops through unions, having to be related to the right person and the like.

I've certainly noticed in my older relatives an almost casual, thoughtless racism. These would be people in their 70s and 80s and even older, coming out with gems like "well I've nothing against the educated black but..." and "I'd never let my daughter marry a darky" :eek: But they grew up when there was still a British empire and are sort of relics of that period of history.

As for the flag thing, unfortunately if you see a tricolour flying from someone's house you do think "IRA". While it's certainly not a crime to fly this country's flag wherever and whenever you wish most of the time, being a member of the IRA is a criminal offence. You may not be aware of that if you get your information about this country from some Irish-Americans who have some very odd ideas about us. (Ah yes Irish-Americans, they'll do anything for Ireland. Except f-ing live here of course)

GuanYin

simu wrote:

Well, I was thinking that there's no organised racism in Ireland like the far-right and Neo-Nazi groups that exist in some other countries in Europe.

Well there are, they just aren't particularly organised.

What is openly hostile racist abuse to strangers like? Do people actually go up to random strangers who "look foreign" or whatever and insult them?

Yup pretty much.

The abuse is ranged and varied and stretches from people slowing down and shouting racist abuse from cars to people coming up in bars and clubs and either attempting to start a fight or just being abusive (someone has actually accused me of "taking Irish jobs and women").

What kind of people do this? Even if they are racist, would the normal societal constraints on what you can and cannot say to strangers not put them off? (Just wondering how stuff like that takes place not having witnessed it myself).

Well why would you witness it simu? The kind of people who do it are morons. Usually men, but quite a few women too. The fact of the matter is, that because these people view foreigners as inferior, the normal social constraints don't apply to them.

I've spent long periods in London, Paris and various partsof Germany as well as many US cities none of these places compare to Dublin in terms of the sheer ignorance of people towards "foreigners" or the spontaneous abuse the will give them. Of course, this is just my experience, but I think if you were to survey the white catholic Irish demograph of society they might have a very different opinion on how much racism there is in Ireland, compared to the opinions of everyone else.

simu

psi wrote:

Well why would you witness it simu?

I observe how people behave with one another in public places but of course, this is far from giving a realistic view.

Anyway, another question for people: where has this hatred of some Irish people for foreigners sprung from all of a sudden? It's not like we have a history of slavery and discrimination against people of a different skin colour like in the US south that might have left residual traces. People might be afraid of foreigners "stealing jobs" etc but it's pretty obvious that the standard of living is better here for just about everyone since the economic boom. Where does this stuff suddenly spring from? Does it come from fear of the unfamiliar? Even then, fear and hatred seem a long way from one another - hatred requires a lot of effort and stress.

Redleslie2

simu wrote:

Anyway, another question for people: where has this hatred of some Irish people for foreigners sprung from all of a sudden?

There's nothing sudden about it. It's a conservative country and always has been. What do you expect.

simu

Redleslie2 wrote:

There's nothing sudden about it. It's a conservative country and always has been. What do you expect.

I don't think there's anything obvious about racism, I don't think it's something that would occour to a person all by themselves. It seems more like a product of long-standing conflict between two groups (others may disagree with this). To be more precise, it's not just racism based on instant fear of unusual looking faces we're talking about here - there's a whole ideology of the superiority of white Europeans behind it as well (White Germans etc who came to Ireland don't seem to get the same amount of grief although they are also from a fairly different culture).

Thinking about it, maybe the idea got transmitted here from countries Irish people emigrated to - for example, that poor Irish people adopted the anti-black racism of Wasps in America because it meant that they weren't quite at the bottom of the heap. That was my own first experience of racism - I lived in America for a while as a kid, my family went for a weekend to Boston, we met up with recent Irish arrivals in Boston and were pretty shocked at how nasty they were being to black taxi-drivers etc. Were they trying to fit into some sort of crude stereotype they had of how a white American should act or what? Otherwise, why would Irish country people whose main previous experience of black people was most likely the largely sympathetic depictions of blacks on American TV shows suddenly have developed such a massive grudge? I don't know - any thoughts are welcome!

I'm not trying to prove that this sort "white people are the best"-delusion is a nasty import pushed on this wee innocent country - it has taken hold here to some degree and this is a shameful thing but I don't accept that racism is just something that you have to expect from people unless taught otherwise, that's it's their default setting. Or am I being ueber-naive?

Memnoch

It's because you misunderstand what racism really is. Racism isn't hatred of someone because their different. The difference is only an excuse.

Racism works on many levels. First there are the poor of society, the lower socio-economic classes. They are often angry and their life is very depressing and so they direct this anger at anyone as different from them. It's easy to blame someone else for your problems, and also perhaps your failures. "they took our jobs, our money, our women" kind of attitude.

Secondly there is the more elite racism, and this is the true backbone of racism. It's the innate nature of human greed that drives it. It's not about someone else's skin color, it's more about getting an advantage over them, of using them for your own benefit while giving as little as possible in return. Using race and skin color has always just been a convenient method of differentiating out a group of people and giving oneself an artificial advantage over them.

This is now changing in Irish society and the rest of the have's of our planet to use nationality. Where the new "discriminated class" are "immigrants".

Why should it be okay that someone be discriminated against because of their place of birth, something over which they have no control. Yet it's not okay to discriminate against someone because of their skin color, another aspect of them that is beyond their control.

Issues of practicality aside, how does one justify this ethically and morally? I don't think it is possible to justify it, yet people do, because it suits them.

In the end there is only one fundamental truth. Human beings are greedy and selfish creatures. Once you realise this everything else will fall into place by itself. The haves will always want to keep and prevent the have nots from joining them. Because without the have nots there are no haves.

simu

Memnoch wrote:

Racism works on many levels. First there are the poor of society, the lower socio-economic classes. They are often angry and their life is very depressing and so they direct this anger at anyone as different from them. It's easy to blame someone else for your problems, and also perhaps your failures. "they took our jobs, our money, our women" kind of attitude.

Secondly there is the more elite racism, and this is the true backbone of racism. It's the innate nature of human greed that drives it. It's not about someone else's skin color, it's more about getting an advantage over them, of using them for your own benefit while giving as little as possible in return. Using race and skin color has always just been a convenient method of differentiating out a group of people and giving oneself an artificial advantage over them.

But then the issue isn't strictly racism - it's people trying to screw other people over using any excuse thay can find - their origin or skin colour if it's convenient, for instance. (being pedantic - it sucks just as much to get abuse for the reasons you gave)

In the end there is only one fundamental truth. Human beings are greedy and selfish creatures. Once you realise this everything else will fall into place by itself. The haves will always want to keep and prevent the have nots from joining them. Because without the have nots there are no haves.

It's like that now but it could change - for example, most people who are well-off need to have many other people on the same level around to make their way of living sustainable. I don't think it's too much to aspire to that everyone have their basic needs like food, shelter, health services and basic education seen to.

Memnoch

simu wrote:

But then the issue isn't strictly racism - it's people trying to screw other people over using any excuse thay can find - their origin or skin colour if it's convenient, for instance. (being pedantic - it sucks just as much to get abuse for the reasons you gave)

in my view racism itself has never been the issue. The real issue has always been the underlying reason behind the racism. It is precisely because these reasons have never been acknowledged, exposed and dealt that racism is still so rife with society today. Racism itself is a symptom of a much greater disease of the inherent selfishness that underlies human nature. And it will never go away until this is dealt with.