anyone who takes broken washing machines for free ?!?

Kristok

They really are robbing us blind, its not that we even accpet it we just get told when we complain that we are misinformed. I dont even mind the company making profit but to actually raise the price of the tole because they can and not because they need to is just insane, they basically said you cant do anything about it and raised the price. The ammount of profit they make is obscene but there is not much we can do unless one of the parties make it a campaign election promise which they probably wont.

Victor

Alun wrote:

Well, nothing's ever for free when it boils down to it. I don't know how, for instance, Ballyogan Recycling Centre is financed, but you can be sure they're not doing it out of the kindness of their hearts.

It is probably finaced from the environmental fund.

They take fridges and washing machines for free, but charge for garden and domestic waste for some strange reason.

They want to stop people dumping the white goods, while at the same time (a) getting people to dispose of garden waste in their own garden (b) stop people not paying bin charges on the dubious basis "but I take it to the dump myself".

and I'd be willing to bet that it's a lot more cost effective solution than vast armies of inspectors combing the countryside on the off chance that they'll catch someone dumping.

But it would be less "big brother" and more to Lombs liking, wouldn't it?

lomb wrote:

if there was a levy imposed of say 25 euro, that 25 euro will be worth 50 euro in 5 years when it comes to disposing of it.

Now we know you are more financially astute than that. You know it will cost more in X years time to dispose of it also.

do u really trust a government that contracted the toll on the M50 to arrange levies which they now they want to buy it back at twice the cost of the highest and most expensive bridge in the whole world for the poxy M50 lol, money in ireland has a nasty tendancy to end up in the pockets of a few strokers.

Well if you have specific allegations about Greenstar, then out with it.

http://www.ntr.ie/subsidiaries/Waste_Greenstar.htm

the fairest thing is the buyer owns it and when he doesnt want it he should pay to dispose of it

I will pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today. You know people won't do it.

do u really need big brothers hand to cross the road

Apparently they do. Look at all those people killed crosing the road every year.

Kristok

Victor wrote:

I will pay you Tuesday for a hamburger today. You know people won't do it.

Thats not even the same kind of situation. People do pay to have stuff taken away, i know i had to this week. Its making everyone pay a tax for something only a hand full of people are doing.

Alun

lomb wrote:

its not financially viable to administer a scheme to dump machines with prepayments. ie would cost too much.

How do you know this? Have you done detailed costings? And what about your alternative of hordes of inspectors lurking in country lanes behind trees waiting to catch people dumping? How much would that cost?

According to the annual results of the Dutch scheme (from their website) they took in EUR 40 million in levies in 2003. The actual costs of disposal (about 16 million) , plus all other costs came to 26 million. Hardly not "financially viable" I'd say? The remainder was used to compensate the various member trade organisations for appliances for which no levy was paid, i.e. bought before the scheme came in.

The Dutch scheme is considered a model scheme of its kind in Europe. They even do a DVD in English explaining how the scheme works if you're really interested in the facts rather than making them up for yourself.

But then, "it could never work here" could it?

lomb

Alun wrote:

But then, "it could never work here" could it?

it couldnt actually, this is ireland.

it would be incredibly dear with no opt out. what might be a better idea is to force manufacturers to place serial numbers around the machine in microdotts which cost less than a euro. then if fly tipping is a problem then keep a register of all machines sold and owners, and when ownership passes on the register is updated. the retailers would administer the scheme. simple, cheap and effective.

Alun

Who is going to adminster this register, and who will pay for it? What if someone doesn't register when the machine is sold / passed on or the owner changes address? What about the costs of finding and picking up the dumped goods, consulting the register, tracing and apprehending the miscreants, fining them, disposing of the goods anyway, and then recouping the costs back from them as well?

lomb

Alun wrote:

Who is going to adminster this register, and who will pay for it? What if someone doesn't register when the machine is sold / passed on or the owner changes address? What about the costs of finding and picking up the dumped goods, consulting the register, tracing and apprehending the miscreants, fining them, disposing of the goods anyway, and then recouping the costs back from them as well?

or stick with the current system. probably cheaper than any stupid levy imposed by and run by NTR..................

Victor

Casting my mind back.

Actually, I think we've been addressing this wrong. White good disposal should actually be inbuilt into the sale cost. It should only be a cost to the manufacturer, if the manufacturer makes a greener fridge that is cheaper / more practical to decommission then that is a risk the manufacturer should bear. If a manufacturer makes an ungreen fridge they end up paying more to dispose.

As best I know that is the situation that currently exists.

Kristok

now that i wouldnt disagree with, if the company making a fridge dosnt use parts that can be recycled let them pay for it they will eventually get tired of the cost and move onto making a fridge that can be almost completly reused.

Only thing ive a problem with is paying into a scheme, if a tenner is added on to the cost by the maker selling it to the shop thats another thing.

lomb

not the manufacturers problem in my opinion, the consumer buys it, its theres and there problem to get rid of it. thats the way society has functionedd for thousands of years. why change now?

Alun

Well, if either of you had actually bothered to read my previous posts, you'd have seen that the 'scheme' as you call it in Holland isn't run by the wicked, evil government, or even more wicked, evil private enterprise but by a not-for-profit organisation run by the manufacturers and importers! The levy is simply added to your bill by the shopkeeper at the point of sale, so it amounts to exactly what you're proposing except that the accounts and annual report of the organisation are made public for everyone to see.

I wonder why I bother sometimes.

lomb

yea but NTR would most probably run the disposal 'operation' as this is a small country.
anything with NTR invoved is evil

Alun

I give up This is like holding an argument with a brick wall. We're talking about a NOT-FOR-PROFIT organisation here, what the Dutch call a "Stichting", not a conmmercial organisation making profit for shareholders like NTR.

Kristok

Alun maby it is pointless trying to convince us, i dont know your background if your irish or dutch etc but as an irish person i have learned that nothing setup by the government will ever work out in our best interest. Look at the hospital/lotto thing that we used to have here till like the 80's. That was suppose to fund hospitals and everyone gave their money thinking they might win and if they dont at least it goes to a good cause, what happened ? a greedy few corrupted it and hardly anything went to the hospitals and it took decades before it was finally shut down and some very selfish people made allot of money. Things like this tend to happen in ireland and really the only way to avoid them is to stop any chance of it happening in the first place. imho. We have the rehad lotto now and they do a good job but if that money had have been used correctly in the first place perhaps things in hospitals could be a bit better now, unlikly but we will never know.

The point is that if we have to pay directly where is the incentive for a manufacturer to bother desiging something to be recycled in the future. If they have to pay there is a financial incentive for them to do something. Sure time will tell either way, its not like we have a say in anything that gos on in our own country.

lomb

Kristok wrote:

i have learned that nothing setup by the government will ever work out in our best interest

all true, past experiance would tell us nothing set up by the government will be in the peoples interest. they are a law on to themselves.

i was driving thru the country just outside dublin and there wasnt a roadsign in sight,the roads were knackered. i have spent alot of time in rural mid wales and although the population density is very low, and the people fairly poor, the roads were perfectly paved and the signs were first rate.

the government are a bunch of lazy idiots here basically.....

Alun

Kristok wrote:

Alun maby it is pointless trying to convince us, i dont know your background if your irish or dutch etc but as an irish person i have learned that nothing setup by the government will ever work out in our best interest.

Actually I'm English, but before moving to Ireland 4 years ago, I lived in Holland for nearly 14 years, and in Germany for 7 years before that.

Now, don't believe for one minute that Ireland has the monopoly on crappy government. Despite the rosy picture most people get from countries they visit on holiday, or read about in the papers, even those that get 'top marks' like Holland and Germany, corruption and incompetence are rife. So no difference there. The difference is that there they don't whinge about it quite as much as they do here, and even if they disagree with something they are generally a law-abiding bunch and try to get things changed for the better instead.

In any case, at the risk of repeating myself for the zillionth time, the scheme in Holland isn't set up, organised, run, or whatever word you want to use by the government at all, not one bit. It was set up on a government initiative, certainly, but there all connection ends, full stop.

lomb

Alun wrote:

It was set up on a government initiative, certainly, but there all connection ends, full stop.

which is what would happen here except the government will contract it to whoever 'bribe' the minister enough and have a previous track record.

it wont work here, full stop.

Kristok

Alun you say we whinge but why shouldn’t we when we are the most expensive country to live in in europe, its all well and good to say we just moan but we do have reasons to be annoyed and weary of the prospect of a new scheme asking for more money.

DublinWriter

Kristok wrote:

I dont like the idea of paying a levy up front, if its a car what if i sell it for scrap ? or bring the fridge somewhere for free, the shop just gets the money and dosnt have to use it or worse still it gos to the government and we end up with another equestrian centre or stupid spike in the middle of another irish city.

That'll be the famous equestrian centre in Kildare that's actually too small to stage equestrian event?

The point is that it takes effort and manpower to recycle scrap. There isn't a hell of a lot of salvagable material in old white goods.