Planning permission to enlarge window???

SachaJ

Question to people in the know.....

Living in a corner house and the side window is about 18 inches wide by 40 or so high.

Do I need planning permission to knock a bigger hole in the wall to put a decent window in. Reason being that this window is the only window for the sitting room.

Also would the likes of Senator windows take on a job like this? Knock the hole and put in a bigger window.

thanks for any help.....

yop

Also would the likes of Senator windows take on a job like this? Knock the hole and put in a bigger window.

Highly unlikely that they would do any structural work on the house, they install windows only.
You would need to install a longer lintel also when you are doing this

Capt'n Midnight

random suggestions

You might not need to install a lintel if you extend the window downwards. But if it's already over a meter high not really going to do much, you could go down to skirting board level with frosted glass

glass bricks exist but I've no idea if they are structural

other options include skylights, brightening up the room (white paint)
you can even get expensive fibre optic bundles to channel in natural light in from outside.

kadman

You could also install a light tube like the one in the link. Thay are available in Ireland, but I'm not too sure under what brand name.

http://www.dulley.com/lskylight.shtml


kadman

rooferPete

Hi Kadman,

Skytubes are available from suppliers in Baldoyle, Cork and Galway that I know of there could be more.

I would have to go into the database (old computer) or technical archieves (heap of brochures bottom of the press) to get the exact contacts for you.

rooferPete

A quick link to one supplier

http://www.tradecraft.ie/

yop

Pete, what sort of sponds would a man be looking at, we are considering putting one into our bedroom in the new hut, don't have enough room for roof window so have to go down this way.
Also Fakro or Velux?

rooferPete

Hi Yop,

I think the unit is around 300.00 euro, personally I think you would get better value out of the velux or fakro if you can make a few changes to the design.

The skytube people have a trailor set up as a demo where you can see them working, I think they are good for dark corners, ensuites or landings but I would have reservations about them as a main light source.

From a material outlay they are not much cheaper than a small fakro, the labour element in a retrofit wouldn't be much more for a tunnel if you have the room for one.

They do work and are noticeable in the roof, probably the best way to see one in action would be to have a look at the show houses in estate developments.

yop

Thanks Pete,
Ya no choice lad, roof window will not fit as there is already one below it in the ensuite.
We were not allowed for planning reasons to put a window in a the gable, actually that would be a question for ye, if we have a bedroom of 14.5 ft * 13ft, would ye think that the light from a dormer window would suffice to let enough of light into the room and that the dome light really will not add much?

kadman

Roof lights tend to let in more light than dormers, I suppose its all down to what your planning permission allows.


http://www2.myhome.ie/news/news_show.asp?p=1&id=1774

kadman

rooferPete

Hi Yop,

I am having difficulty picturing your proplem, so I'll try and stick to basics

A dormer is a great help getting light and extra head room i reckon if it doesn't give the extra head room it has hard to justify the extra costs over say velux windows.

If you are going to depend on a sky tube for natural daylight you would need quite a few to light an area 14.5' x 13'.

Have you asked the planners about using obscured glass in the gable window ? I take it the problem is over looking a neighbouring property ?

If I was left with the choice between a dormer or skytube I would take the dormer.

I could be miles off your topic because I need that mental picture.

yop

Okily Pete,

Ya planning did not want any windows overlooking the neighbours, twats!!
So we have a bedroom of 14.5' x 13' and it has a dormer window 1500mm to the front of the bedroom. At the back of the bedroom we have an ensuite with a velux, door on the ensuite so in real terms we will be getting no light from this room.
SO the only option for us is to put in a dome light, now going by what ye lads are suggesting we may not be getting much light from this, so we could be wasting 400 euro odd.

kadman

Most window sizes fall between 10-20% of the floor area of the room, what's your window percentage Yop.

kadman

yop

Most window sizes fall between 10-20% of the floor area of the room, what's your window percentage Yop.

Do you mean what size is the window as compared to the size of the room?
Actual window size is 1050mm * 1050mm.

So I presume you mulitple the size of the room, 4400 * 3668 and then get 1050 * 1050 and get a precentage of 6.8 %.
So reall that is all the light we will get in!

kadman

yop wrote:

Do you mean what size is the window as compared to the size of the room?
Actual window size is 1050mm * 1050mm.

So I presume you mulitple the size of the room, 4400 * 3668 and then get 1050 * 1050 and get a precentage of 6.8 %.
So reall that is all the light we will get in!

It would appear , based on the room size, and window size, that it is less than what would be considered normal. Most window sizes are 10% + of the floor area, and increasing towards 20%.

Is the dormer a standard dormer construction, and I assume it is fitted at the moment. Does it have solid side cheeks, or maybe there is a possibility of fitting glazed side cheeks, to increase the light entering the room.

I thought you said in an earlier post that the window was 1500 mm.

kadman

yop

The footprint of the Dormer is 900 * 1500
What I have done is attached a pic of the room, might give a better idea.

cheers

kadman wrote:

It would appear , based on the room size, and window size, that it is less than what would be considered normal. Most window sizes are 10% + of the floor area, and increasing towards 20%.

Is the dormer a standard dormer construction, and I assume it is fitted at the moment. Does it have solid side cheeks, or maybe there is a possibility of fitting glazed side cheeks, to increase the light entering the room.

I thought you said in an earlier post that the window was 1500 mm.

kadman

kadman

yop wrote:

The footprint of the Dormer is 900 * 1500
What I have done is attached a pic of the room, might give a better idea.

cheers

I see whee you are coming from now Yop,

Would I be correct in saying that the dormer construction would have allowed a larger window, at least in width any way. And maybe if the window was allowed to run up to the dormer apex, instead of across horizontally , from side cheekplate to side cheek plate, this would have given a triangular head to the window, and more light.

Definitely glazed sides would have had a major impact here.

Is a larger dormer window an option at this stage for you Yop, or is it academic at this stage

Sorry SachaJ for straying off the beaten path a bit.
Is this build finished at this stage.

Side cheeks of dormer being glazed , would definitely improve your light situation. Light vents above doorways are another way of improving light inot a room, as well as maybe obscure light in the top 1/3rd of the ensuite door, as well as any door into the room, that would allow light diffussion from a window outside the room.

kadman

yop

Well the TF is ordered lad so making changes now really would not be an option.

I don't know about making changes, I could actually put a line of glass blocks in the ensuite wall, would bring in some light, I am not sure about the dome light now though!

rooferPete

Hi Yop / Kadman,

I was looking at the drawing and went into one of my "No expense spared" modes

I woder is it feasible to clad the insides of the rafters of the dormer and get the "Cathedral" look in that area and fit two small velux roof lights as far into the room as possible.

As it is the light is in a tunnel that will leave you with two dark areas on either side of the dormer, the sky tubes may help to bring in natural light on the two sides.

I know it's tight but we should be able to come up with a solution.

yop

Am a bit lost on that one lad, can u draw it up rough or someit?

Where would u put the velux windows???

Can I take it that both of you think that the 400 odd Euro I could spend on a dome light might be wasted??

kadman

Hi Yop / Rooferpete,

If the tf kit is made, its not a big deal to widen the front of the dormer panel, as this should have a full width lintol any way, and its really only a matter of refabbing on site, probably only 1 hours work. The major issue is , have the windows been ordered yet.

Definitely agree Rooferpete that, velux rooflites would be my first choice, if budget allowed, but I thought 2 rooflites + flashing would be more expensive, not sure though.

Then again if its a " No expense spared scenario ", I would take out some collar ties, place a rooflite further up the rafter zone, develop a tapered lightshaft, clad it out in a cathedral fashion, and all the ceiling as well.
And probably bankrupt poor Yop as well.

Seriously though finished cladding is only 25e's a pack, that covers 2.2 sq m.

I suppose Rooferpete, a section of Yop's room would help to see how far into the room its possible to get a roof lite, and then see how large a velux you can get in. Aesthetically how will it look with both dormers and velux 's.

Yop could you get a 3d tf view of that room dormer yop, and post it. Showing timbers only. Its only a matter of the TF company e-mailing you a single drawing. Its already produced when your designer prepared the tf drawings, so you've already paid for it. It would be excellent from a point of view of getting advice from the pro's here. Just a thought


kadman

yop

kadman wrote:

Hi Yop / Rooferpete,

If the tf kit is made, its not a big deal to widen the front of the dormer panel, as this should have a full width lintol any way, and its really only a matter of refabbing on site, probably only 1 hours work. The major issue is , have the windows been ordered yet.

Definitely agree Rooferpete that, velux rooflites would be my first choice, if budget allowed, but I thought 2 rooflites + flashing would be more expensive, not sure though.

Then again if its a " No expense spared scenario ", I would take out some collar ties, place a rooflite further up the rafter zone, develop a tapered lightshaft, clad it out in a cathedral fashion, and all the ceiling as well.
And probably bankrupt poor Yop as well.

Seriously though finished cladding is only 25e's a pack, that covers 2.2 sq m.

I suppose Rooferpete, a section of Yop's room would help to see how far into the room its possible to get a roof lite, and then see how large a velux you can get in. Aesthetically how will it look with both dormers and velux 's.

Yop could you get a 3d tf view of that room dormer yop, and post it. Showing timbers only. Its only a matter of the TF company e-mailing you a single drawing. Its already produced when your designer prepared the tf drawings, so you've already paid for it. It would be excellent from a point of view of getting advice from the pro's here. Just a thought


kadman

I see what ye are on about now alright lads, TF is not made, just ordered and drawings signed, not made for about a month or so.
I have attached a front section drawing and a section drawing to give and idea of the dimensions what you are looking for.
I have the CAD drawings but no CAD at work here.

Me thinks it could be cat expensive, but are you talking about putting velux windows over the dormer??
I have already looked into putting a velux above the velux in the toilet to allow light into the bedroom at the back of the house but we do not have enough room to do this.

kadman

Hi Yop / Rooferpete,

Looks to me Yop if the existing velux in room 4 is as long as it can be, and situated as far up the roof as is possible, given the existing section. Any velux placed at the front of the house , either side of the dormer would be in the same position up the roof zone. And a 680 wide velux here is a bit of a squeeze.

I think you should look at the dormer window size , as I think there is ample room to make a significant increase, in both width and height. You could also move the dormer further up the roof zone to keep the window head height closer to the ceiling height.
I imagine it would be more econonomical to change the window size if possible, rather than invest in velux windows at this stage.

I'd be interested to hear from Rooferpete on this one.


kadman

yop

Kadman,
I agree there alright, but changes to the front as in resizing the actual dormer would be a planning issue?
I am a bit annoyed with myself for not spotting this earlier, I thought I had looked at all aspects!! I think I might have to build a line or 2 of glass blocks in the ensuite wall, this should give us some light.

Pete - Have you installed this dome lights, do u think that it really is worth my while to install a dome light, wonder if I installed the gllass blocks and the dome light would that give us much light!!
I could sneak in an auld window in the gable!!

rooferPete

Hmmmmm,

Having looked at the front elevation I do believe there may have been an error in the drawing department ??????

Thinking out loud to myself now, I wonder would a decent planner accept that the dormer should be in line with the feature window below it and accept that a body would be in "Substantial Compliance" with the planning approval if the dormer was wider ?

I do believe the building regs have this issue covered regarding the amount of light per sq metre in each room, also the bedroom window should have an ope at least 600 mm wide for a fire exit.

A sit down with the planner requesting either balancing the front windows or a gable window with obscure glass may be an acceptable change.

I think you would get a lot more value for your euro (or 800.00) widening the dormer and getting more light with fire exit than you would with the tube system.

The domes of the sky tubes would alter the front anyway and would be a bit like having a light bulb on in the day.

Over to Kadman, Yop it's only your house you don't have a say

yop

Umm, You saying that they should have made me have the dormer window the same size as the bay window middle section, wish to hell the did now!!

What hassle would it be to sit down with the planner to change the plans, would it mean having to go through some planning stages again?

The dome is on the back of the house Pete, not the front;
I could try and put in a wrap around window on the dormer, but an expensive alternative

rooferPete

Hi Yop,

Like I said it's your house your money, now let me and Kadman spend it for Ye

I honestly believe with the correct drawing, maybe a touch of rendering to make it really classy, the planning department would allow a bigger dormer on the grounds that it would be Architecturally more Aesthetic.

No kicking for spelling errors at this hour

A cert of exemption or the old "Substantial Compliance" may come into play, in fairness the planners don't want the hassle of a new application for what is a minor alteration.

They usually look for blatant abuse like a gable window where they made it clear they don't want one.

Kadman or one of the Architects / Planners may have a contribution to make.

kadman

Hi Yop / Rooferpete,

I would consider the dormer change a minor issue from a planning point of view as well Rooferpete.

I've no doubt that Rooferpete and myself have seen more radical alterations regarding window ,door, stair size , made on site , on the fly as they say, that are never revisited from a planning point of view.

What does your architect/ engineer think in relation to the window size.
Did you denote the window sizes Yop to your tf designer, or did they come up with that arrangement. If it was a bit of poor planning on their part for the window size, maybe they might take care of the planning side of it for you.

I dont have a copy of the relevent regs regarding windows with me at the moment,,but I'll dig them out if I can.

From the tf kit point of view. Even if the dormer panels, were made at this stage, there are only 1 front panel, and 2 side panels, any of these would be very easily changed. Until you get the planning issue sorted, you could contact the tf company and tell them to hold off on the dormer window at this time. This would have no impact any where else on the design, so they would n,t mind.

It would be beneficial to alert the tf company of the dormer issue, because if there are any small trusses used here, and you widen the dormer, they will be redundant at this stage, but you will still have to pay for them. Roof trusses would normally be ordered after the approval of tf drawings because of the lead in time, so best to check this out.

Rooferpete, I like the idea of a cathedral ceiling in the bedroom, and considering Yop is paying, I think we should make it part of the brief now.
Doesn't it just feel great spending Yop's hard earned dosh

kadman

yop

How much bigger do u suggest that the dormers be????
I like the idea of a cathedral room, BUT I am not sure if I understand EXACTlY what u are suggesting.
Spend away, monopoly money

rooferPete

Hi Yop,

Y'all is in the hands of RooKad now, in this newly formed corporation our motto is "Kash cuts the cake" .

I think the dormer would look better if the window matched the one below it 1500 wide the height could be and I think building regs insist on it being 1000 mm high.

Sorry should have looked at the side elevation the height could be increased to nearer the room ceiling height which is about an extra 400 mm.

As Kadman pointed out there are much bigger alterations than this being done without need to apply for permission, I think you will find the timber frame people and the planners will be happy to see this "error" fixed today.

kadman

Hi Rooferpete/Yop,

How come I get second billing, ( Rookad )

I cant get my regs anywhere , looks like some crafty bugger has swiped them :eek:

Rooferpete, I thought the min height to the bottom of an opening was 850, and the max was 1100. If I am right, this dormer as dimensioned, is out side of regulations, cill height wise. So the planners and TF company , could very well be happy to increase the window height to conform to regs, and give Yop the chance to proclaim....I can seeeee the light.

The only reference to this reg on the web I can find is here, and it seems to concur. I'd prefer to read it direct from the regs though. Would you have your copy at hand Rooferpete.


http://www.archiseek.com/content/showthread.php?t=663

BTW Rooferpete, when Yop drops off the brown bag of monopoly money, divvy up my cut for me will you

kadman

Yop,
The easiest way to describe a cathedral ceiling is that it has little or no attic space i.e. the collar ties would be very short or non existent.
The main roof construction timbers, hip rafters, valley rafters and common rafters, may be exposed or partially cladded with tongue and grooved sheeting, to give an aesthetically pleasing view of a ceiling.
Basically the same as a cathedral or church ceiling.

kadman

yop

Well gentlemen the decision has been made, not sure how happy then g*ylords in the planning office will be but we have decided to add a window in the gable, this will cover the light issue for us.

*The TF company said let there be light, and there was light*

Cheers for all the advice, could have left me bankrupt but hey!

kadman

Well Rooferpete,

( Kadman says )
After all that , and now we have to put a window in the gable, Jaysus, :eek:

" giv us up the chainsaw then Pete, now which fec...ing gable do we cut ?, oy Pete is Yop still paying us for all that work on the dormer then... :mad:

( Rooferpete ) replies.

" No he's not , but fec him..we'll bung it on the price of this window... NOW GET Cutting.....nnnnggg.....nngg..nnnggg.

kadman
Well done Yop.

rooferPete

Now Ye can see why I was first Sheesh roofers have a bad enough name without nominating Kadroofer

Me thinks we got poor instruction on this job Kad ole chap, let's put a window in Both gables LOL.

kadman

Or maybe crafty old Yop was just testing out our problem solving abilities.

We surprised him, there may not be a lot of thatch on the roof Yop, but the light is still on upstairs.......now where's me zimmer frame.

kadman

kadman

Yop,

Whats the story with that dormer cill at 1088, is that higher than regs Rooferpete.

kadman

rooferPete

Hi Kadman,

I do believe the cill height in bedrooms should not exceed 800 mm from floor to window ope to allow for easy exit.

I know there is a little room to play with but I think 850 to inner cill level would be about acceptable.

At 1088 it would be a struggle for some to climb out, then again I don't have to comply with those rules often enough to have them to hand.

It can make for a very good argument in retaining the gable window though.

kadman

Hi Rooferpete,

Yes, 850 seems to ring a bell, and 1100 max, and at these dimensions that window appears to be outside of regs.

Then again they may make Yop drop the window height, and refuse the gable window.

So Rooferpete, if he works on the dormer, do we still get dosh then.he.he.

kadman

Victor

The 900mm is a minimum height to protect children from falling from upper storeys, not ground floor, based on my reading of the TGDs.

http://www.environ.ie/DOEI/DOEIPol.nsf/0/a137e0322d60e09780256f5d00504a79/$FILE/Part%20K%20Tech%20Guide.pdf

Protection from falling. K2 In a building, the sides of every floor and balcony and every part of a roof to which people normally have access shall be guarded to protect users from the risk of falling therefrom.

kadman

They're stair regs you are quoting Victor, we are talking about window regs .
The min height in that TGD for a window is 800, and max is 1100, to opening. Yop's window at 1088 to window board , could be argued as out of regs,

kadman