Are there a lot of Nigerians who are criminals?

bringitdown

I just returned from a trip to Nigeria, I don't know if I have much to add to this debate but for my (somewhat truncated) account of my time there http://www.sbradish.net

Wibbs

This on the BBC website today.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/4346873.stm

But officials say it is hard to crack down in a country where people are poor and where trafficking has become an accepted way of life.

The scary thing is that the Nigerian government only made trafficking illegal last year. You would think it would be taken as read.

It really does seem that certain crimes are "an accepted way of life" in Nigeria. I tell you some of the links I've read during this debate make for depressing reading. I didn't include all of them here either.

joseph brand

@Wibbs

Thanks for posts and links, and helping to highlight some of the problems that we never hear about or read in our papers which are clogged up with junk reading about Corrie, Brian Mc Fagballs, Beckham, Chelsea, Brian Mc Fagballs, Kerry Katona, . . blah blah Sh1te!!

I think we all know now that there is a higher percentage of Nigerians 'HERE' (not Nigeria) who are dodgy, and I'm not saying that we don't dabble in money swindling, you only need to look at Mr Haughey,Liam Lawlor, Derek Mooney.

I would like to see the US and UK try help this and other countries in Africa.
I am not up to scratch on their economic situation but from the CIA website they have buckets of oil, OIL = CASH, so why are they so poor??

Probably just like us, scoundrels in power.

On a lighter note, the Nigerians were great in World Cup '98

GuanYin

joseph brand wrote:

I think we all know now that there is a higher percentage of Nigerians 'HERE' (not Nigeria) who are dodgy, and I'm not saying that we don't dabble in money swindling, you only need to look at Mr Haughey,Liam Lawlor, Derek Mooney.

Can you back this up?

Can you show me any figures or evidence that the percentage of dodgey nigerians compared to the nigerian population, is higher than the percentage of dodgeys in any other nationality group in the country?

No?

So its just your opinion that youre pushing as a fact then, eh?

Wibbs

psi. joseph brand nor anyone else can back it up unless we have access to arrest and prison records broken down by nationality. If anyone has those I for one would be interested to see them.

You can however infer a few things;

1. Nigeria by comparison to Ireland is a significantly more lawless place. Numerous links posted attest to this.

2. That Nigerians (among others) have Mafia style organisations involved in large scale fraud, drug and people trafficking (one of the links I posted suggested they control the transport of something like 50% of the worlds heroin trade)

3. That lawlessness endemic in Nigeria may have resulted in a general apathy to crime as for many people it's the only way to survive.

4. Nigerians are leaving their country to have opportunities not available to them in their homeland. These people may have criminal intent or may be fleeing the criminality. Indeed it could be just as validly argued that the Nigerians who come here are less likely to be criminals because they wanted to escape that way of life. Equally hard to prove too.

5. Nigerians as Sub Saharan Africans are more likely to be carriers of HIV due to the epidemic there.

From Irelands point of view, checking of medical records in response to no. 5 on the list at point of entry might be wise. Checking of criminal records would I feel be equally valid with respect to no. 1 on the list. I stress however that this not be restricted to Nigerians but to all nationalities equally.

The problem I have with all of this conjecture is that it leads to prejudicial treatment of people based on nationality and not on the individual. Unfortunately it's a common way of thinking. Another common way of thinking is to ignore the facts when faced with a politically sensitive issue. Both are equally silly IMO.

Prejudice has a strong effect on people even when faced with facts. Weird analogy alert. Next time you're on a tropical beach (if ur lucky ) scream "SHARK" and see the reaction. Scream "BEE" and people will ignore you or think you mad. Honey bees kill way more people every year than sharks do. Yet most of us think of bees as lovely little fellas making honey for us while sharks are generally much maligned.

The point I'm labouring here is that regardless of the criminality or no of Nigerians in the end of the day you are far, far more likely to be robbed, assaulted or otherwise ripped off by the local Irish variety of gouger.

They are the sharks, you are the honey bees and I'm the tyranny of evil men. But I'm tryin real hard.........

Redleslie2

amp wrote:

Can you show me a link with actual statistics proving the dishonesty, unindustrious nature and laziness of all Nigerians? I'll give you 24 hours..

Still waiting....

Wibbs

Of course you're still waiting Redleslie2. How can anyone quantify the unindustrious nature and laziness of any group? AFAIK it can't be done.

Reverse the question. Can you show me a link with actual statistics proving the honesty and industrious nature of all Nigerians? I'll give you 'til forever runs out.

Redleslie2

Wibbs wrote:

Reverse the question. Can you show me a link with actual statistics proving the honesty and industrious nature of all Nigerians? I'll give you 'til forever runs out.

Show me where I've made any such claim.

Wibbs

I'm sorry Redleslie2 , did I say you made such a claim? mmmmmmmmm No. thought not.

With respect, how could I claim anything for you as the only post I could find from you has been "still waiting......" 5 pages of debate later.

Amp (rightfully) asked for the stats to back up true 's wild claim. I was trying to make the point that obviously true can't find stats to back up such a generalisation by reversing the question. Neither position is provable. That's the point.

Here's a stick. Please feel free to grab the wrong end.

This is a well dodgy topic with a very sensitive and needed debate at it's heart. Redleslie2, I for one would like to read your opinion on this topic. I'm sure you've more in you than still waiting for true's response.

Tha Gopher

Firstly the HIV problem is much worse in central to southern africa than Nigeria (though i think all new arrivals should face mandatory testing and appropriate measures be taken to protect the public if they are carriers- fcuk this "stigmatisation" nonsense, we are talking about peoples lives here)

EDIT for Simu- sorry to be sounding harsh, but i think in many cases, particularly young single people, deportation is the only truly safe measure. We cant afford to import disease like this. Its tough but unfortunately thats life. As for generalisations, sorry but if 99% of a population is criminally minded then yes it is fair to be wary of a group. It isnt fair on the decent members, but thats life too unfortunately, better to offend a good person than take a risk and be fcuked over by the bad apples

I think the one in three figure is from a Sunday World report from years back which claimed that of the 4000 Nigerians in Ireland back then 1000 had an arrest since their arrival (an arrest mind, not a conviction). I dunno if this could be all down to criminality or if much of it was from arrests and detentions by the immigration police on technical matters

The same paper claimed fairly recently there are around 50 Nigerians heavily involved in Dublins drug trade, importing and trafficking mainly in cocaine and crack cocaine, to something like 2000 crack addicts (suprisingly, crack never took off like heroin, many of the crackheads are current/former heroin users). Ive no idea of how many Nigerians live in Dublin region, from looking at the street id assume its maybe 4% black by now, the vast majority being Nigerian (virtually any African i ever spoke to was from there). Some areas have virtually none, some newer parts of Blanch are about 25% by now id say

So, 60,000 odd blacks, 30,000 male, maybe 20,000 old enough to be in the drug trade, and 50 are selling crack. I know these figures are guesswork etc, but when you consider that out of probably 70,000 irish people living in the Blanchardstown area 300 are what the Gardai have classed as hard core gang members, it isnt quite as serious
Every grouping has bad apples. Certainly there are scum from there. However, i have to say ive yet to see a gang of Nigerians drinking in a kids playground threatening passers by, or creating a nuisance down the back of the bus

They talk too loud on their phones in the library, but apart from that Mind you, dont get me started re Spaniards and their chatter....

The roughest crowd of imports I know of are the lads from the accesion states. They drink, they fight like crazy.....theyre alot like the irish really. Most of them seem friendly enough, but just like the irish you dont be needing to get on their wrong side

simu

Tha Gopher wrote:

Firstly the HIV problem is much worse in central to southern africa than Nigeria (though i think all new arrivals should face mandatory testing and appropriate measures be taken to protect the public if they are carriers- fcuk this "stigmatisation" nonsense, we are talking about peoples lives here)

What sort of protectionary measures? Tattooing "don't have sex with this person" on their faces?! You don't get HIV from being in the proximity of a carrier!

I think all people (not just new arrivals to Ireland) should be encouraged to get tested for HIV if they think they might have it because it's in their own interest to know what's happening in their body so they can get treatment for anything that's going wrong but I don't see the point of mandatory testing.

As for this whole thread - the legal system doesn't work in terms of probabilities of certain groups of people comitting crime. Even if you came up with proof that 99% of memebers of a given group of people have criminal convictions, it wouldn't be right to brand the other 1% as criminals too. People are individuals and should be judged as such!

BuffyBot

(though i think all new arrivals should face mandatory testing and appropriate measures be taken to protect the public if they are carriers- fcuk this "stigmatisation" nonsense, we are talking about peoples lives here)

Enlightened much?

What exactly do you propose?

mrhankey88

Are there a lot of Nigerians who are criminals?

I read an article recently which stated that 80-90% of nigerian males were criminals and reportedly 95%+ of nigerian women were pregnant for more then 50% of their lives.

GuanYin

mrhankey88 wrote:

I read an article recently which stated that 80-90% of nigerian males were criminals and reportedly 95%+ of nigerian women were pregnant for more then 50% of their lives.

Source please?

Was it something more reputable than "Racist Weekly"?

Tha Gopher

BuffyBot wrote:

Enlightened much?

What exactly do you propose?

Buffybot i said what I proposed. If you support risking the potential introduction of dangerous diseases into the general population of this country so as not to offend or stigmatise people can you please get a dose of reality? Thankfully such diseases are comparatively rare in this country outside of the high risk groups, and it would be rather good to keep it this way if you have an ounce of sense
And btw i noticed that regardless of the forum 90% of your posts are either nit picking, condescending or bitchier than a spoilt schoolgirl. Seriously, shut up

bonkey

Tha Gopher wrote:

buffybot i said what I proposed. If you support risking the potential introduction of dangerous diseases into the general population of this country som as jnot to offend or stigmatise people can you please have yourself commited?

Given that ppl could lie about country of origin etc. I presume you'd test all ppl coming into the nation? Tourists too?

And maybe any Irish person who's been abroad....never know...they could have these diseases too..

Its the only way to be sure, right?

jc

Gordon

mrhankey88 wrote:

95%+ of nigerian women were pregnant for more then 50% of their lives.

Average age of puberty is 11 so if you are to have more than 50% of your life pregnant then the average amount of babies:Nigerian women has to be at least 11. This is considering they all die at 22 years old.

That was a rather obvious troll right? Or was Tha Gopher insinuating that this was humour?

mrhankey88

Average age of puberty is 11 so if you are to have more than 50% of your life pregnant then the average amount of babies:Nigerian women has to be at least 11. This is considering they all die at 22 years old.

oh, sorry mate, i now recall the number to be 20% rather then 50, really makes a difference

Karl Hungus

Could be an interesting point to mention at this juncture that the number "88" seems to be plastered all over stormfront and other racialist sites. So it might be prudent to discount myhankey88 as either an ignorant blowover from said site, or that he's just a plain ignorant kid born in 1988.

paulcr

Karl Hungus wrote:

Could be an interesting point to mention at this juncture that the number "88" seems to be plastered all over stormfront and other racialist sites. So it might be prudent to discount myhankey88 as either an ignorant blowover from said site, or that he's just a plain ignorant kid born in 1988.

8 is the letter H. 88 is HH as in Hiel Hitler. not sure of the german spelling.

paulcr

Was I just stating the obvious? We have these neo-nazi punks in the US. They rank with the KKK. Always looking for someone to blame for their own problems. I guess it makes them feel better about their own lives.

Gordon

I think you're making this up but I had a look at some statistics that suggest 10%
http://www.phrasebase.com/countries/Nigeria.html

BuffyBot

Buffybot i said what I proposed.

And what you proposed is..well frankly slightly stupid.

amp

Hi there,

Just a quick reminder that personal abuse is not allowed and that if you're going to make statistical claims you'd better have some proof.

For further details I suggest reading the charter. People that continue to ignore it will be banned.

shoegirl

I deal with Lagos a lot at work, have to say I find most very easy to talk to and many are extremely feiendly. I also lived for 2 years on a road with a lot of African immigrants in Cork - some were very friendly indeed for total strangers!

I had a couple of Nigerians working on my team in one London job a few years back - they were fine to work with - no better or worse than anybody else.

All in all, I haven't found them as a nationality any different to any other nation. And I've worked with or deal with everywhere in the triangle between Paris, Capetown and Siberia. Some were very good workers - one or two were not so good. There are good, bad and indifferent Nigerians, just like there are good, bad and indifferent Irish.

Unfortunately any Nigerian who does engage in criminality in ireland is going to be used as "evidence" for criminality. Its definitely a very corrupt country, but Angola is catching up fast. (Now I've also dealt with the Angolan Oil Company - don't start me there).

afric_princess

My parents are Nigerians nd I'm Irish nd I totally lyk disagree wit dis...My mom's a nurse nd we live in a gud area nd wrkd 4 all we hav so 2 say All Nigerians r scammers is totally lyk rong...

purple'n'gold

afric_princess wrote:

My parents are Nigerians nd I'm Irish nd I totally lyk disagree wit dis...My mom's a nurse nd we live in a gud area nd wrkd 4 all we hav so 2 say All Nigerians r scammers is totally lyk rong...

Whether you are Nigerian, Irish or from the remotest parts of Siberia is no excuse for not being able to spell properly.

The_Conductor

The political system and culture in Nigeria, are often blamed for making corruption such a viable industry. Specific reasons why corruption is so widespread in Nigeria in particular include:

1) Great inequality in distribution of wealth;
2) Political office as the primary means of gaining access to wealth;
3) Conflict between changing moral codes;
4) The weakness of social and governmental enforcement mechanisms; and
5) The absence of a strong sense of national community

An obsession with materialism, compulsion for a shortcut to affluence, glorification and approbation [of ill-gotten wealth] by the general public, are among the reasons for the persistence of corruption in Nigeria (Ndiulor, March 17, 1999). It has been noted that one of the popular, but unfortunate indices of good life in Nigeria, is flamboyant affluence and conspicuous consumption.

Source African Economic Forum link here.

Other factors are poor reward system and greed; Nigeria's reward system is, perhaps, the poorest in the world. Nigeria is a society where national priorities are turned upside down; hard work is not rewarded, but rogues are often glorified in Nigeria.

An ineffective tax system, along with poorly thought out trade policies encourages corruption. (An example from the Sentinel is the rule banning the importation of Tokumbo (used cars) over 5 years of age- which led to massive bribery of customs officials, and a net drain on state coffers from the lack of registration taxes.

Many Nigerians are highly achievement oriented, but they have relatively low access to economic opportunities. For example many civil servants work for months without getting paid (ThisDay, July 7, 2002; Daily Trust, July 9, 2002). Yet, the society expects them to be honest and productive.

Brazen displays of wealth by public officials, which they are unable to explain the source of, points to how bad corruption has reached in the society. Many of these officials before being elected or appointed into offices had little or modest income. But now, they are owners of many properties around the world (ThisDay Online, June 24, 2002).

Corrupt government officials shift government expenditures to areas in which they can collect bribes easily. Large and hard-to-manage projects, such as airports or highways, make fraud easy. In addition, poverty and income inequalities are tied to corruption (Lipset & Lenz 2000). Development projects are often made unnecessarily complex in Nigeria to justify the corrupt and huge expense on it. The new national stadium in Abuja, which is said to have gulped millions of Naira more than necessary, is a case in point.

The 1996 Study of Corruption by Transparency International and Goettingen University ranked Nigeria as the most corrupt nation, among 54 nations listed in the study, with Pakistan as the second highest (Moore 1997, p.4). As this was not too bad enough, the 1998 Transparency International corruption perception index (CPI) of 85 countries, Nigeria was 81 out of the 85 countries pooled. In the 2001 corruption perception index (CPI), the image of Nigeria slipped further down south (ranked 90, out of 91 countries pooled), with second position as most corrupt nation, with Bangladesh coming first.

Other sources:
Transparency International Corruption Index, 1998; and
Lipset, Seymour & Salman Lenz, "Corruption, Culture, and Markets," (2000),In Culture Matters, Harrission & Huntington (eds.), 2000, p.113
The Transparency International Corruption Index, 2001; pp. 234-236
East African Standard- Country report Nigeria
Victor E. Dike - Nigeria and the Politics of Unreason: A Study of the Obasanjo Regime

Nigeria has loads and loads of laws to fight corruption on its statute books (such as the 419 code that is well known overseas), but very little political will to implement them. Corruption has become so institutionalised in Nigeria- that it is a pariah among other African states, who abhor doing business of any nature with it. Its newfound oil wealth aside, which has spawned a thriving kidnapping and assasination industry particularly in the Delta region, Nigeria is an economic basket case, only eclipsed by Mugabe's regime in subsaharan Africa.

There was a perception in Nigeria that once it gained its independence in 1960- that the obvious wealth on display by its colonial masters would be transferred to the new country- the military officers saw the display of this wealth as a means of rejoicing in the overthrow of their colonial oppressors- and something that the populace should rejoice in. Obviously this wealth was not earned by the military officers- but a tradition set in- a tradition of adorning oneself in as much conspicious consumption as possible, as a means of showing how successful you are- regardless of how one came across this wealth. Similar expectations in South Africa following the accession of the ANC to power after the overthrow of the Apartheid regime- have led to an upsurge in corruption there- however, in South Africa there is perceived to be a democracy- and the military is not viewed as an extension of the government's arm- it still has many career officers from the old regime.

S.

Tha Gopher

BuffyBot wrote:

And what you proposed is..well frankly slightly stupid.

How so?

I cant wait to hear your solution.;)

Also Im amazed at how easy it was to get away with personal abuse back in the day on this thread. One of the biggest present day crybabies in any debate did it at least twice with no ban