Define Punk

Doctor J

Inspired by the 'Is Punk Dead?' thread, modern punk to me seems alien to what I understood punk to be in the 70's, what is punk to you?

dregin

Having an unadulterated opinion and expressing it whatever way you want.

ether

Punk is attitude plain and simple, not giving a ****.

ferdi

i dont like to get into definitions of this sort. punk to me is a type of music and attitude that i like.

NotMe

ferdi wrote:

punk to me is a type of music and attitude that i like.

I agree.


There is no absolute definition of punk. It's more of a general attitude towards music and towards life with different variations depending on the person.

(or something... )

Stylistic origins: Psychedelic rock, pub rock, and garage rock – proto-punk
Cultural origins: Mid 1970s United States, United Kingdom, and Australia.
Typical instruments: Vocals – Guitar – Bass – Drums
Mainstream popularity: More success in the UK than US. Some success for pop punk, especially ska punk and Two Tone
Derivative forms: Alternative rock – Hardcore – Emo
Subgenres
Alcopunk – Anarcho-punk – Anti-folk – Gothic rock – Hardcore – Horror punk – New Wave – Oi! – Pop punk – Post-punk - Fusion - Anti-folk – Death rock – Psychobilly – Ska punk – Two Tone
Other topics
Cassette culture – DIY – Punk pioneers – First wave – Second wave – Punk cities – Punk movies – Fanzine

Punk rock is the anti-establishment music movement of the period 1976-80, exemplified by The Ramones, the Sex Pistols, The Clash, and The Damned. This term is also used to describe subsequent music scenes that share key characteristics with those first-generation "punks." The term is sometimes also applied to the fashions or the irreverent "do-it-yourself" attitude associated with this musical movement.
Origins

The term "punk rock" (from 'punk', meaning rotten, worthless, or snotty; also meaning a street hustler or juvenile delinquent; also a prison slang term for a person who is sexually submissive) was originally used to describe the untutored guitar-and-vocals-based rock and roll of U.S. bands of the mid-1960s such as The Seeds and The Standells, who now are more often categorized as "garage rock."

The term was coined by rock critic Dave Marsh, who used it to describe the music of ? and the Mysterians in the May 1971, issue of Creem magazine. The term was adopted by many rock music journalists in the early 1970s. For example, in the liner notes of the 1972 anthology album Nuggets, critic and guitarist Lenny Kaye uses the term "punk-rock" to refer to the Sixties "garage rock" groups, as well as some of the darker and more primitive practitioners of '60s psychedelia. Shortly after the time of those notes, Lenny Kaye formed a band with avant garde poet Patti Smith. Smith's group, and her first LP released in 1975, directly inspired many of the mid-70s punk rockers, so this suggests a path by which the term migrated to the music we now know as punk.

In addition to the inspiration of those "garage bands" of the sixties, the roots of punk rock also draw on the abrasive, dissonant style of The Velvet Underground; the sexually and politically confrontational Detroit bands The Stooges and MC5; the UK pub rock scene and political UK Underground bands such as Mick Farren and the Deviants; the New York Dolls, and some British "glam rock" or "art rock" acts of the early seventies, including David Bowie, Gary Glitter, and Marc Bolan and T. Rex.

The British punk movement also found a precedent in the "do-it-yourself" attitude of the Skiffle craze that emerged amid the postwar austerity of 1950s Britain. Skiffle music led directly to the tremendous worldwide success of the Beatles (who began as a Skiffle group) and the subsequent British Invasion of the U.S. record charts. Punk rock in Britain coincided with the rise of Thatcherism, and nearly all British punk bands expressed an attitude of angry social alienation.

Punk rock also emerged as a reaction against certain tendencies that had overtaken popular music in the 1970s, including what the punks saw as superficial "disco" music and grandiose forms of heavy metal, progressive rock and "arena rock". Punk also rejected the remnants of the hippie counterculture of the 1960s. Bands such as Jefferson Airplane which had survived the 1960s were regarded by most punks as having become fatuous and an embarrassment to their former claims of radicality. Eric Clapton's appearance in television beer ads in the mid-1970s was often cited as an example of how the icons of 'sixties rock had literally sold themselves to the system they once opposed.
The Emergence of Punk Rock

In the mid-1970s, influential punk bands emerged separately in three different corners of the world: The Ramones in New York, The Saints in Australia, and the Sex Pistols, in London. In each case, these bands were operating within a small "scene" which included other bands and solo performers as well as enthusiastic impresarios who operated small nightclubs that provided a showcase and meeting place for the emerging musicians (the 100 Club in London, CBGB's in New York, and The Masque in Hollywood are among the best known early punk clubs).
An important feature of punk rock was an evident desire to return to the concise and simple approach of early rock and roll.
Nevermind.png
Punk rock emphasised simple musical structure and short songs, extolling a "DIY" ("do it yourself") ethic that insisted anyone could form a punk rock band (the early UK punk fanzine Sniffin' Glue once famously included drawings of three chord shapes, captioned, "this is a chord, this is another, this is a third. Now form a band"). Punk lyrics introduced a confrontational frankness of expression in matters both political and sexual, dealing with urban boredom and rising unemployment in the UK—e.g., the Sex Pistols' "God Save The Queen" and "Pretty Vacant"—or decidedly anti-romantic depictions of sex and love, such as the Dead Kennedys' "Too Drunk to ****" or the Sex Pistols' "Submission."

The influence of the cultural critique and the strategies for revolutionary action offered by the European situationist movement of the 1950s and 60s is apparent in the vanguard of the British punk movement, particularly the Sex Pistols. This was a conscious direction taken by Pistols manager Malcolm McLaren, and is apparent in the clothing designed for the band by Vivienne Westwood, and the visual artwork of the Situationist-affiliated Jamie Reid, who designed many of the band's graphics.

In the UK, punk interacted with the Jamaican reggae & ska subcultures. The reggae influence is evident in the first releases by the Clash, for example, and by the end of the 1970s punk had spawned the 2 Tone ska revival movement, including bands such as The Specials, Madness and The Selecter.

One of the first books about punk rock — The Boy Looked at Johnny by Julie Burchill and Tony Parsons (December 1977) — declared the punk moment to be already over: the subtitle was The Obituary of Rock and Roll. The title echoed a lyric from the title track of Patti Smith's 1975 album Horses; this "obituary" for punk came when the Clash had only on album out and the Dead Kennedys had not yet formed.
Punk attitudes and fashion
Image:TheClashLondonCallingalbumcover.jpg

The punk phenomenon expressed a whole-hearted rejection of prevailing values that extended beyond the qualities of its music. British punk fashion deliberately outraged propriety with the highly theatrical use of cosmetics and hairstyles--eye makeup might cover half the face, hair might stand in spikes or be cut into a "Mohawk" or other severe shape--while the clothing typically adapted or mutilated existing objects for artistic effect--pants and shirts were cut, torn, or wrapped with tape, safety pins were used as face-piercing jewelery, a black bin liner bag (garbage bag) might, and often did, become a dress, T-Shirt or skirt.

Punk devotees created a thriving underground press. In the UK Mark Perry produced Sniffin' Glue. In the United States magazines such as Search & Destroy (later REsearch), Maximum RocknRoll, Profane Existence and Flipside were leading a movement of fanzines. Every local "scene" had at least one primitively published magazine with news, gossip, and interviews with local or touring bands. The magazine Factsheet Five chronicled the thousands of underground publications in the 1980s and 1990s.
Post-1970s punk

In the 1980s a second wave of anti-establishment and "DIY" bands came into their own in the United States and the UK. MDC, Crass, Descendents, Hüsker Dü, Bad Brains, Vice Squad, X, The Replacements, Picture Frame Seduction, The Exploited, Minor Threat, JFA, The Dicks, Inner City Unit and many others had little impact on the music industry charts, but nonetheless developed ardent followings. The period from approximately 1980 to 1986 is considered the peak of hardcore punk.

A thriving Punk Rock subculture can still be found in many cities. Krakow and Jarocin in Poland have thriving and colourful street punk cultures. Punk rock underwent a commercial renaissance in the 1990s with bands like Rancid, Green Day, and The Offspring. Subsequently, bands such as My Chemical Romance, The Used and Taking Back Sunday have built on those earlier bands in the form of Emo music, which is an offshoot of hardcore punk.

ferdi

**** off.

Whadda matter with you? A question was asked, I provided one answer! A lot of people (mostly young don't have a F*ckin Clue about punk.

Or maybe you're acting on a Punky pulse

ferdi

the question was "what is punk to you?", not "give a long winded, bull****, copy and paste definition of what punk is off google" see the difference?

Em no.

If you open your eyes to the top of the page, "the headline" I believe its called...

It says Define Punk

After that, it says what is punk to you...


I merely defined punk and you merely told me to **** off.

Sorry, just checked.. You don't like definitions.
You should read the article tho' its a good read.

dregin

Your opinion was requested. That isn't your opinion.

Ro: maaan!

I don't see anything wrong with posting that.It's there for anyone who wants to read it. But I can't see anyone reading it all, or caring what it says. Especially seeing as most of the replies have said that punk is something that means something them. I tend to agree. Music, attitude.

I am MAN

punk is certainly not handbagging on a message board.

veryslowey

punk is just rubbish anyway when you thjink of it

I am MAN

lol, go run away in your "punk trousers".

dregin

veryslowey == punk

veryslowey

I am MORON wrote:

lol, go run away in your "punk trousers".

yeah same to you alright

ferdi

i didnt mean the '**** off' in an agressive 'punK' way. i meant it in this kind of way:

someone tells you - "The Postman came early today "

you reply - "**** off "

Ro: maaan!

ferdi wrote:

i didnt mean the '**** off' in an agressive 'punK' way. i meant it in this kind of way:

someone tells you - "The Postman came early today "

you reply - "**** off "

Best analogy ever!

steveland?

I refuse to read Papa Smut's post.

I hate these long winded definitions of a genre. Punk was kinda more the attitude that the songs. Like I know you'd consider punk bands to be bands like The Ramones, The Clash, The Misfits, The Exploited, New York Dolls, MC5 etc but it was DEFINITLY more the "F*CK YOU" attitude they had than the music they played.


Also if you wanna think of punk in a kinda less serious way it's like someone who really can't play but godDAMMIT are they gonna try

John

Punk is always knowing that you care. Or is that love? Either way punk is just pure feeling. The very fact that you can place the Ramones beside Black Flag is punk, both play completely different types of music and have completely different attitudes to music and life but both are doing what they are feeling.

oq4v3ht0u76kf2

"What is punk?" he asked me.
"It's more than the music you listen to or the way you dress, it's an attitude - a way of life... a philosophy if you will" was my reply.
But he didn't understand so I thought for a few minutes. As we continued walking I kicked a rubbish bin and I said to him "there, that's punk."
He looked confused yet still walked beside me, as we came to another rubbish bin he kicked it and asked me "so, that's punk?"
To which I replied "no, that's just being trendy."

steveland?

Punk: 3 chords and the truth

John

steveland? wrote:

Punk: 3 chords and the truth

Who needs the three chords when you've got the truth?

ferdi

OrangeRhino wrote:

"What is punk?" he asked me.
"It's more than the music you listen to or the way you dress, it's an attitude - a way of life... a philosophy if you will" was my reply.
But he didn't understand so I thought for a few minutes. As we continued walking I kicked a rubbish bin and I said to him "there, that's punk."
He looked confused yet still walked beside me, as we came to another rubbish bin he kicked it and asked me "so, that's punk?"
To which I replied "no, that's just being trendy."

me likey

Chalk

punk is a 6 bedroom house in killiney with an arctic spa in the garden and 2 beemers in the driveway.

punk is not your haircut
punk is not a safety pin in your trousers and an allowance from daddy whos a consultant in a private care centre
punk is not going to a gig and starting fights with people who dont dress like you

punk is lost to the corporations you so half heartedly oppose, while consuming there premium goods and services.

Matthewthebig

punk is music. Relax man

It wasn't me!

Punk is being who and what you want to be for the sole reason that it's who and what you want to be.

Matthewthebig

No thats not giving a ****. I wouldn't consider that to be nesecerally(sp?) punk. There are people like that who don't like punk

John

Punk:






Not Punk:

NotMe

Punk:



Not punk:

Matthewthebig

Punk:



Not Punk:



lol

John

lol

Matthewthebig

But honestly punk is music to me. The attitude is secondary

It wasn't me!

It is music, but it is attitude, and it's also a lifestyle and a culture. The funny thing is the music doesn't necessarily go with the culture, the attitude or the lifestyle. In some cases it does. I get an upper-class upbringing. I've never known a hard day in my life. Does that mean I'm not entitled to listen to and love the music? No. It means I'm not entitled to bitch and moan about how bad I have it. ( :rolleyes: ) The music can be a social commentary though and it's a powerfully honest way for a band to make a point. Write it in punk.

nobodythere

Punk is now simply a genre of music. As with all good movements it becomes tainted by assholes who take it the wrong way and abuse a philosophy.

For me, to define punk as anything but a genre of music scattered with apathetic wasters (for those who embody the tainted philosophy) would be romanticised, a cause I once believed in and that did once exist. As the bible has the changed through word of mouth through the years, so has the basic fundamental principles of punk.

It is NOT about being different! It's about being yourself. It's about being able to make a decision and use your common sense without having the media, the government or the people around you spoonfeeding you and sorting out the facts for you. It's about breaking a boundary because you don't believe that the boundary should be there. It is not about breaking boundaries simply for shock value or simply to be different or for recognition.

I think that most people are incapable of living outside of paradigms. People always have to be a part of a group. Maybe it's a sort of group evolution effect. We have formed a counter culture that is intent on doing the exact opposite of what culture is doing. In a way it becomes a culture itself with many rules. If society was 'x' and punk was 'y', a lot of punks would just be y = -x. They don't consider if what they're doing is what they think is right, they simply work against society.

Not giving a **** about anything or anyone in the world as some posters have said is NOTHING to do with punk and is a pathetic way to live.

Ro: maaan!

grasshopa wrote:

Punk is now simply a genre of music. As with all good movements it becomes tainted by assholes who take it the wrong way and abuse a philosophy.

For me, to define punk as anything but a genre of music scattered with apathetic wasters (for those who embody the tainted philosophy) would be romanticised, a cause I once believed in and that did once exist. As the bible has the changed through word of mouth through the years, so has the basic fundamental principles of punk.

It is NOT about being different! It's about being yourself. It's about being able to make a decision and use your common sense without having the media, the government or the people around you spoonfeeding you and sorting out the facts for you. It's about breaking a boundary because you don't believe that the boundary should be there. It is not about breaking boundaries simply for shock value or simply to be different or for recognition.

I think that most people are incapable of living outside of paradigms. People always have to be a part of a group. Maybe it's a sort of group evolution effect. We have formed a counter culture that is intent on doing the exact opposite of what culture is doing. In a way it becomes a culture itself with many rules. If society was 'x' and punk was 'y', a lot of punks would just be y = -x. They don't consider if what they're doing is what they think is right, they simply work against society.

Not giving a **** about anything or anyone in the world as some posters have said is NOTHING to do with punk and is a pathetic way to live.

Good show! This is the closest description here to what I consider punk to be. I saw a hoodie last summer sometime with "I never wanted to be different, I just wanted to be me" written on it. (Only time I've ever seen one, not sure if they're common or not.) I thought it summed up pretty much everything on the subject of punks/goths/metalheads whathaveyou and people's views towards them, and their view of themselves. Sadly punk seems to have turned into the exact opposite of what it originally was.

Civilian_Target

Punk == Stiff Little Fingers - a **** you to everyone - including the listeners.

Ro: maaan!

Civilian_Target wrote:

Punk == Stiff Little Fingers - a **** you to everyone - including the listeners.

What? Care to explain that?

OG

Punk to me is pure music, music that has not been turned to a certain type or sound, with less forms or restrictions as other music. its the essense of a band. In my opinion, if people got together to make music it would be punk, but if they got together to make jazz they would make jazz, quite difficult to explain but i think most of your points have brushed off it already. well, just my opinion.

Doctor J

OG wrote:

Punk to me is pure music, music that has not been turned to a certain type or sound, with less forms or restrictions as other music. its the essense of a band. In my opinion, if people got together to make music it would be punk, but if they got together to make jazz they would make jazz, quite difficult to explain but i think most of your points have brushed off it already. well, just my opinion.

Ahh now we're getting somewhere. This would've been on my line of thinking. To me, punk is not E B C# A ad nauseum, quite the opposite. What is classified as punk in this day and age is often a third rate pastiche of a Ramones, Pistols or Clash songs and that ain't punk to me. Folks purposely trying not to move on from the sounds created 30 years ago is the opposite of what punk, in theory at least, was supposed to be. Modern punk, at times, seems to have quite rigid boundaries and restrictive musical breadth which is very un-punk, wouldn't you say?

ferdi

for me, if it has 'The Energy', its punk.

dregin

The force is with you young punkist.

dregin

Doctor J wrote:

Ahh now we're getting somewhere. This would've been on my line of thinking. To me, punk is not E B C# A ad nauseum, quite the opposite. What is classified as punk in this day and age is often a third rate pastiche of a Ramones, Pistols or Clash songs and that ain't punk to me. Folks purposely trying not to move on from the sounds created 30 years ago is the opposite of what punk, in theory at least, was supposed to be. Modern punk, at times, seems to have quite rigid boundaries and restrictive musical breadth which is very un-punk, wouldn't you say?

What??????You think punk is everyone agreeing and ahveing the same opinion. I change my definition to telling everyone who defined punk for me on this thread to FÚCK RIGHT OFF.

Doctor J

dregin wrote:

What??????You think punk is everyone agreeing and ahveing the same opinion. I change my definition to telling everyone who defined punk for me on this thread to FÚCK RIGHT OFF.

No, not at all. Read what I wrote.

dregin

Doctor J wrote:

Ahh now we're getting somewhere. This would've been on my line of thinking.

Sorry, I wasn't referring to your definition, rather the first two sentences. You're getting somewhere because someone agrees with you........

Doctor J

Ah ok. I was merely expressing a bit of excitement at the first post which, to me anyway, got close to my interpretation of punk, which is probably a little more idealistic to what had previously been suggested. The current crop of carbon-copy riffmongers strikes me as being quite conformist, within the generally accepted "punk sound".

TBH, what I would consider to be more in keeping with punk ideology would be something like Einsturzende Neubaten and the like, not conforming to typical song structure or even typical punk band instrumentation. Punk evolved, it didn't just stop in 1980.

dregin

You're right Minor Threat only started in '81

NotMe

Doctor J wrote:

...got close to my interpretation of punk, which is probably a little more idealistic to what had previously been suggested.

The problem with punk ideology is that it is idealistic. If you think about it to deeply then you could argue that nothing is punk. As far as I'm concerned the Clash were punk. Even though they played reggae, pop, etc... , even though they signed to a major label, even though their music was used in a tv advert. The Ramones were punk. Even though Johnny Ramone was a republican Reagan lover, even though all they wanted to do was play the perfect pop song and get a radio hit. With the Ramones it wasn't their ideals that made them punk, it was more their DIY attitude. They were ugly and they couldn't play but that didn't stop them.

Anyhoo, you say four power chords played over and over quickly doesn't make it punk. Fair enough but it's still damn good music.

John

Doctor J wrote:

TBH, what I would consider to be more in keeping with punk ideology would be something like Einsturzende Neubaten and the like, not conforming to typical song structure or even typical punk band instrumentation. Punk evolved, it didn't just stop in 1980.

That's why I included a picture of Throbbing Gristle on the previous page. They always said they were anti-punk and hated the punk mentality but by their very essence they were punk in that they wanted to write their own rules. They used keyboards, viola and were the first people to apply sampling to music properly and none of them could play a note. At all. They just wanted to make music so they did. They set up their own label and played in places that normally you wouldn't find a band (a private boys primary school, a cinema, art galleries, etc) and just turned up the volume and let rip. Similarly for Neubauten who even now don't rest on their laurels, they continue to defy what is expected of them.

i_dont_do_names

Doctor J wrote:

Inspired by the 'Is Punk Dead?' thread, modern punk to me seems alien to what I understood punk to be in the 70's, what is punk to you?

punk is non-commercial freedom that doesnt conform with evevrything else. and yes, big record companies have killed punk