Awwww, poor ol' McVeigh

androphobic

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by yankinlk:
and of course you would "know" that there arent 164 families going to sleep a little easier tonight...you are kidding yourself. </font>

If that was addressed at my previous post.. of course I don't *know* just as you don't know that they're overjoyed at the thought of the execution.
But I've never met someone whose grief has disappeared - or even lessened - with the thought of revenge. It just doesn't work like that.

SheroN

I remember ronald regan comming on the tv once upon a time laughing and grinning after america had bombed Lybia. There was an awful lot of innocent people killed in this bombing. while i don't condone what mcveigh did in any way shape or form, he does how ever make some valid points.

I think by executing him he's been made a martyr to many sick people in america and to be honest, his bombing was on the second aniversary of Waco, I wouldn't be surprised to see some nut job plant a bomb or pull a gun in the name of mcveigh's memory on this date in years to come.

[This message has been edited by SheroN (edited 11-06-2001).]

Belisarius

Well It seems to me , tragic and uncondonable as the bombing was , he was putting it in a language most americans understand and communicate regularly through on the international platform , And while those lives are too high a price by anyones standards *bar Tim's obviously* It did effectively convey a powerful political message , and a valid message at that . But as for Timothy mcveigh somehow becoming an Icon for radicalism is doubtful , As it was largely the Oklahoma bombing which put the final nail in the coffin of the US militia movement

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Shrewgar!

Greenbean

"From what I've seen of him, He seemed to be normal, sane and very intelligent. He did not bomb the building because he was insane or wanted to kill children - far from it. he did it to make a point, and he made it.

The american's have depicted him to be a phychotic, evil man when this wasn't quite the truth at all."

Sorry, this doesn't hold water with me. He may be clearly "sane" but he sure as hell wasn't f\/cking normal. Isn't it a well documented thing that many (not the majority) of the worlds worst killers are calm well spoken people with aimable core ideals that many people can understand. But he wasn't normal - his moral depth, his illusion that he was fighting a "worthwhile" campaign, a "reasonable" war were all beyond the boundaries of reasonable self rationality. Its not worthwhile when you kill, ever, unless you defend yourself. He truely was totally detatched from the rest of society (which is when morals dissapear) when he "regrets" that hundreds of innocents die in his attempting to make a point. Normal my fckin hole.

Every society has the potential to have loose cannons like this but it is, as DadaKopf and Bugler pointed out, the problem that America seems to actually have a rather large percentage of them lying around without the issue being tackled.

"he successfully undermind the ****y insecurities and arrogance of the American psyche. He was the all-American boy who fought for his country and embraced the American right to free speech and free association. Then he murdered two hundered people and his motivations were known but they weren't subversive, they were conservative, truly American values - or at least the values that exist but aren't admitted to."

Kill it kill it, that will offer some blood to the gods of security, they will cleanse us of this problem. This leads us to the death penalty. Its never right to take a human life, and this for me is mostly down to the fact that you can never be 100% certain you have the right person - you might be unlucky enough to be pulled off the street, convincted by a stupid legal system which lets the victims have say in the type of justice (correct me if I'm wrong there), all governed by a government which has a chimpanze as a leader and believes violence, aggression and power are the only way to survive.

If anything Timothy McVeigh and his survival militia only reminds me of American policies and the ape that runs it. Its a seige mentality that thinks theres a global war going on and its sure as hell stockpilling for the haulocaust and preparing pre-emptive moves to cut off anyone who looks anywhere near competing. Time to "make a point" ug ug ug ug eee ee ee.

Magwitch

I think he was sane, as a matter a fact I am certain of it. He does have in common with David Koresh the fact that he believed in a Secret World government and that it would enslave America.

Those who circulate in the circles that believe that kind of thing are gun orientated. Few (if any) write books about it. The books that do exist serve only to cash in on the paranoid. TV and Radio is the chosen medium of the Militia minded. This mixed with their fetish for arms suggests a quick fix mind set, prone to direct action.

McVeighs army experience was trained for it while other just braged and preached BS.

McVeigh is only different because he actually did what others have talked about. After he was arrested (and publicly known) I am sure there were Militia Paranoia profiteers running for cover in case they were accused of inspiring him.

Shinji

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">You know if you boil bleach, you can get plastic explosive?</font>

Not sure about that one, I know you get a kitchen full of highly poisonous fumes and a pretty nasty explosion though...

Regarding McVeigh... On general principle, I support the execution. It's not like you're ever actually going to rehabilitate someone who believes that blowing up buildings full of people is a cunning way to make a debating point.

On a more specific level, I agree with Dev. He sure as hell didn't do it. This guy was an explosives expert, and that bomb was NOT an expert job. Course, that could in itself be part of his covering up, but god knows really...

I'll be interested to see the reaction in the USA. I can see a lot more bombings carried out by otherwise rational people, because if McVeigh managed one thing, it was to make a lot of people THINK... And that, after all, is just what a regieme like that which controls the USA are most afraid of.

TwoShedsJackson

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Belisarius:
Well It seems to me , tragic and uncondonable as the bombing was , he was putting it in a language most americans understand and communicate regularly through on the international platform , And while those lives are too high a price by anyones standards *bar Tim's obviously* It did effectively convey a powerful political message , and a valid message at that . But as for Timothy mcveigh somehow becoming an Icon for radicalism is doubtful , As it was largely the Oklahoma bombing which put the final nail in the coffin of the US militia movement

</font>

On the contrary, the militia movement is stronger now then it was ten years ago. It's still semi-underground, but Waco and Oklahoma City have fanned the milita flames, not put them out.

Read 'A Force Upon the Plain' by Kenneth Stern.

yankinlk

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by SheroN:


I remember ronald regan comming on the tv once upon a time laughing and grinning after america had bombed Lybia. (edited 11-06-2001).]</font>

In fairness, Ronald Reagan spent most of his time in the white house laughing and grinning as he had been legaly declared brain dead in eight states (each state has a different standard)...

WhiteWashMan

you cannot bring into forces a social boundry that will cover every single person in a state. it just cannot be done. you will not make every single person or minority happy. and if someone feels they are outside the boundry of sociable acceptance then to be honest, thats their problem.
if bombing a building and killing people is a grand idea to get attention to the few minorities, whatever they be, then i have to say the man deserves to die.
i also dont think you can compare libya, afgahnastan, etc as they are completely unrelated. one was a sad act of a mad man, the others were acts of war, or conflict, depending on who you believe.
anyway.
i also pity the poor buggers who set the omagh bomb, if they ever get caught by a certain few people, their lives will be miserbale for a very long time.

DadaKopf

http://www.timothymcveigh.com/

Anyone got $25,000 and a spare plane ticket to Las Vegas?

Evil Phil

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
Originally posted by Magwitch:
Amnesties claim that it was "revenge" shows how ill-informed and reactionary they are about how extremism works within civilised countries, they forget that harsh actions that they constantly take the time to analyse and invaribly critise are one of the things that keep their valued free speech intact. They do not persue attacks against the IRA or ETA as that would be dangerous - so much for "fighting" for human rights. I support in essence Amnesties goals, but it is rapidly loosing face by attacking those whom half-assed left-wing supporters do not like.
</font>

My God. This is why I avoid this board. This is absolutely mind boggling. Are you saying the Amnesty International are some lefty reactionary group ala May Day protests?

Your quite young really, aren't you? I'd like to argue your points with you but its difficult, they're complete nonsense. Here's some links for you:

http://www.amnesty.ie

http://www.stoptorture.org

The Universal Declaration of Human Rights:
http://www.un.org/Overview/rights.html

Take not of article 3 here, the right to life. Btw, The States have ratified this and it was composed by one Eleanor Roosevelt, the wife of the American President.

I'll quote this one again:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">
but it is rapidly loosing face by attacking those whom half-assed left-wing supporters do not like.
</font>

Loosing support with whom? You should supply some evidence, just making something like that up does carry any weight. They are the largest, most respected independent human-rights organisation in the world. As for harsh actions. Execution and torture are not the tools of free-speech and a civilised society. Educate yourself my boy, educate yourself.

tHE vAGGABOND

I hope the evil fu<k3rs last thought was great pain

Discoballpaul

OKLAHOMA CITY, OK-- Timothy McVeigh's death by lethal injection Monday has made everything perfect in Oklahoma City, his 168 victims' loved ones describing themselves as feeling "100 percent better." "I just know my baby girl is up there in heaven, smiling down on this execution, happy as can be," said a beaming George Browne, whose 7-year-old daughter Brianna died in the 1995 federal-building blast. "Her death is avenged, and everything's great." Said Oklahoma City schoolteacher Sherrie Olsacher, 37, who was blinded in the bombing: "You can't imagine how healing this is. My eyesight's even returned." Moments after McVeigh was pronounced dead, 168 white doves were seen soaring over the city, racing toward a suddenly cloudless horizon that beckoned the dawn of a glorious new day.

JustHalf

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by androphobic:
Any info on what is being done to attempt to rebuild their lives?</font>

He was put to death (to bring closure to the case - justice? Not really). And some chairs went up as a memorial, which admittedly is a good thing... to give the relatives something to focus on as they think of their loved ones.

And a museum.

I can't help but ask though... in who's best interest is putting McVeigh to death now a good thing? I reckon it's the government. For a start, the US government steps out of line too much, disregarding sovereignty here and there, going against long established nuclear weapons treaties, etc. For more, see the "Secret Rulers of the World" thread.

McVeigh, no matter how despicable his actions, you have to admit that when he said that the US was an oppressive government, he does have good cause.

A thought... if McVeigh was given life, a key witness to the bungling US government sting operation would still be alive.

Sorry if this post is incoherent... I stayed up all night trying to get OpenGL code working on my PC.

Excelsior

Why do we kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?

---

Excelsior
=Consto Suffragium Cussu Famina=

JustHalf

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Excelsior:
Why do we kill people who kill people to show that killing people is wrong?</font>

I doubt that's the reason. The people baying for blood most certainly wanted revenge above justice.

Hobbes

I see CBS are making a McViegh mini-series. Whoop-de-doo.

JustHalf

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Hobbes:
I see CBS are making a McViegh mini-series. Whoop-de-doo.</font>

Is this going to be like the "World's Somethingest Something" documentary or a dramatisation?

Either way, I think it's stupid. The former is stupid by default, and the latter would ignore a lot of the facts and make up some (for good TV) Not only that, but they don't really have enough evidence to base much of the McVeigh thread around AFAIK.

Celt

The american army taught mcveigh that collateral damage was acceptable in war.
McVeigh used the principle drilled into him in his "war" againt the american government, and was murdered for it.

[edit]
I've always believed anyone is capabale of murder under the right circumstances, even mass murder.
[/edit]

[This message has been edited by WhiteLancer (edited 14-06-2001).]

SHADOW

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dr. Loon:
I'm not a very religious person but there's one phrase I believe in and that's "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth".
So if some crazy fooker is willing to kill someone, he/she should accept that their punishment may be death, if you're willing to kill then you deserve to be killed.
You are taking peoples lives, gone. So yours should be gone too!!! </font>

I agree with this in principal. BUT how can you ever REALLY know whether someone did it or not? The simple truth is that you cant. We try to make an educated guess but at the end of the day there are no gaurantees. Its still a guess.

That said the world will be a better place without him.

N

JustHalf

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by SHADOW:
That said the world will be a better place without him.</font>

How? For whom?

T.G Catter

there was more than mcveigh involved in the bombing.