Awwww, poor ol' McVeigh

DadaKopf

Like him or loathe him, he's going to be remembered for something. McVeigh really knew how to control the press like an image consultant. What will he be remembered for, though?

Thoughts, anyone?

FreaK_BrutheR

My guess would be he'll be rmembered for planting the Oklahoma bomb.

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Bard

... and of course he'll be remembering for dying for that crime - which he did today ...

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Timothy McVeigh died at 7:14 a.m. CT after he was executed for the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing that killed 168.
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Bard

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"Have a gorilla!" ... "No thanks, I'll have one of my monkeys, they're milder."

C B

he probably won't be remembered at all.

Unfortunately neither will his victims.

nesf

Did anyone see the pictures of the celebrations outside the prison when he died?

One fat lady was shouting "Die Timmy, die!"

Another had "Bue bye Tim" on a placard. Now honestly, does this have a place in any civilsed society? The very idea of exulting in the death of a person, regardless of their actions, can't be a good reflection on the society in which it occurs.

Those people showed little or no remorse for the course of action that was taken, which was unjustifiable. They should have locked him up in solitary for a few dozen years, that might have given him time to repent and apologise. but then again florida has a proud reputation to uphold as the second state on the "court sanctioned" kill list.

Bluehair

What McVeigh did was the most appauling, calculated and horific mass murder our 'civilised' western society has witnessed.

However the general U.S. public and government reaction to it makes me sick to my core....

(following quoted from Irish Times today)
Amnesty condemns execution as 'vengeance'

Amnesty International said today's execution of Oklahoma bomber Timothy McVeigh was a triumph of vengeance over justice.

The London-based human rights group said immediately after Mcveigh was executed that it deeply regretted what it called a failure of human rights leadership in the highest levels of government in the United States.

"By executing the first federal death row prisoner in nearly four decades, the USA has allowed vengeance to triumph over justice and distanced itself yet further from the aspirations of the international community," an Amnesty statement said.

Amnesty said that many of the 152 state executions that took place during US President George W Bush's governorship of Texas were in breach of international standards.

"By refusing to step in and impose a moratorium on federal executions, he has further damaged his country's reputation," the Amnesty statement said.

It said the case of McVeigh had given the US government the opportunity to announce that it would no longer support a policy that allows the murderer to set society's moral tone by imitating what it seeks to condemn.

"Instead, the US government has put its official stamp of approval on this policy; killing, it says, is an appropriate response to killing.

"The international community must redouble its efforts to persuade the US government to impose a moratorium on federal executions as a first step towards leading its country to abolition.

Bard

So you all voted "NO" to the abolition of the death penalty in Ireland then?

nesf

No, I voted yes, I would believe it has a place for treason during wartime, but apart from that, I don't believe that it should be an option for murder etc.

DeVore

They just killed their best lead to who actually bombed the building cos is sure as fúck wasnt McVeigh.

An army man trained in explosives doesnt use fertiliser as a bomb. Its too big and bulky and you can get the same effect from two chunks of semtex in a bag.

Tom.

C B

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by nesf:
No, I voted yes, I would believe it has a place for treason during wartime, but apart from that, I don't believe that it should be an option for murder etc.</font>

Then you should have voted no because now the Oireachtas is unable to enact any legislation enabling the death penalty.

Also in realtion to your odd point about Florida, mcVeigh was actually tried and executed by the federal government not by an individual state.

adnans

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by DeVore:

An army man trained in explosives doesnt use fertiliser as a bomb. Its too big and bulky and you can get the same effect from two chunks of semtex in a bag.

Tom.

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says Tom, who works in a humble internet company???

He wont be remembered by the public at all, but think of all the nuts in America that will follow in his footsteps and call him a martyr. They will do worse things, those "crazy" Americans.

adnans




[This message has been edited by adnans (edited 11-06-2001).]

Dr. Loon

I'm not a very religious person but there's one phrase I believe in and that's "eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth".
So if some crazy fooker is willing to kill someone, he/she should accept that their punishment may be death, if you're willing to kill then you deserve to be killed.
You are taking peoples lives, gone. So yours should be gone too!!! It's the most viscious crime there is.....death. He's a lunatic. I don't agree with the loon americans chanting and rejoicing in the death, cos it is a grim thing regardless....but he deserved to die!

Hobbes

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by DeVore:
An army man trained in explosives doesnt use fertiliser as a bomb.</font>

It's easier to get access to fertiliser then it is Semtex. Semtex is military grade explosives anyway.

Fertiliser makes a pretty impressive bomb btw. I remember a farming show on BBC one demonstrate how much damage one small bag of it can do by putting one into a car. I believe they wanted to pass a law limiting the access to certain types of fertiliser.

Btw, I have heard the stories of it being a "Fund Raiser", and I think we can file that in the same as Elvis abducted by Aliens.

Ronan|Raven

Timothy Mcveigh I feel will be remebered for a long long time.Despite the best intents of bodies invloved to stop him from becoing a martyr (however ya spell it!)He has in some essence become that.


The way he conducted himself neverr showed remorse, died withd ignity and honour as he felt, and im sure some extremists will feel as well.

Only im America eh!

JustHalf

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by DeVore:
An army man trained in explosives doesnt use fertiliser as a bomb. Its too big and bulky and you can get the same effect from two chunks of semtex in a bag.</font>

Not really. Ammonium nitrate is an AMAZINGLY powerful explosive.

Magwitch

Tim McVeigh will not be remembered for what he wanted to be remembered for, and that was a hero of resistence to a world order. His death insures the myth of McVeight is cut short and any effective right wing movement with it.

The very act he chose to make a statement with alienated him from all but the nuttiest of his fellow travellers. Though Oklahoma may remember, it is the victems and the act rather then McVeigh.

As fot the Death Sentence, I voted NO to abolition. A state (any state) should have the ability to bring maximum force to bear against people who carry out acts like McVeigh (in an emergency). Not only because of what they do, but the longer they survive the greater a figure head they become and a rallying point for discontent, the insane and extremsits looking for a cause. Amnesties claim that it was "revenge" shows how ill-informed and reactionary they are about how extremism works within civilised countries, they forget that harsh actions that they constantly take the time to analyse and invaribly critise are one of the things that keep their valued free speech intact. They do not persue attacks against the IRA or ETA as that would be dangerous - so much for "fighting" for human rights. I support in essence Amnesties goals, but it is rapidly loosing face by attacking those whom half-assed left-wing supporters do not like.

DadaKopf

But is it as powerful as Semtex? I doubt it. You know if you boil bleach, you can get plastic explosive?

Ri-ra

Killing McVeigh was revenge, pure and simple. The morons (the 80% of the American population that either actively support or quietly condone state legitmated killing) wanted blood. They were baying for it. It was a circus. The restaurants were selling "execution specials": steak, rare.

Funny that he was killed in a place called "Terre Haute." High(er) ground, indeed.

Bah! They can keep their s h i t t y country.

bugler

McVeigh came as close to remorse as possible without stating right out 'I'm sorry for the bombing'. In recent letters to his hometown newspaper he says he regrets the loss of life he caused, but does not regret the bombing itself. I'll remember him as the man who brought into America's backyard what America has brought into very many other countries backyards over the last half-century.As for the title of this post, I don't particularly feel sorry for McVeigh, I do feel sorry for the victims of the bombing. As I feel sorry for all the Iraqi civilians killed by bombs, all the Yugoslavian civilians killed by bombs, and any other people who are killed or injured by those claiming high moral ground over the act.Not even to mention those killed in Iraq due to sanctions.Unfortunately however, those responsible for these civilians deaths will never get the death penalty.Unless of course, some of them were present in the Alfred P. Murrah building? Of course they weren't, and neither was any ATF member.Justice, eh? Ain't it grand?

[This message has been edited by bugler (edited 11-06-2001).]

Victor

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by JustHalf:
Not really. Ammonium nitrate is an AMAZINGLY powerful explosive.</font>

I think the idea is to 'distill' the Ammonium Nitrate from the carrier that is the core of the fertiliser pellet (usually sand). ANFO (Ammonium Nitrate Fuel Oil) formed the basis of the largest ever conventional explosion (something like 500,000 tonnes). it has been used by the IRA a lot - typically 2 kg of Semtex as a primer for 500 kg of ANFO.

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Changing call sign to SIERRA PAPA OSCAR OSCAR FOXTROT.

DadaKopf

Ah, the topic was just to provoke attention and responses. But I do think McVeigh will be remembered for the reason Bugler pointed out - he successfully undermind the ****y insecurities and arrogance of the American psyche. He was the all-American boy who fought for his country and embraced the American right to free speech and free association. Then he murdered two hundered people and his motivations were known but they weren't subversive, they were conservative, truly American values - or at least the values that exist but aren't admitted to.

He will be remembered. He'll be remembered for a horiffic mass murder but will also remain a symbol of defiance in the face of American hypocracy and, I suppose, imperialism. McVeigh was smart; he decided to have his body cremated and have his ashes scattered in an anonymous place. His action and what he stands for won't be sullied by a filthy white-spuremacist shrine or a hubristic state memorial, propaganda to teach everyone what happens to you when you commit state treason (or can't express your opinions on America). This means that his ideas and 'presence' will live on and provoke thought in different peoples like so many people like him have.

TwoShedsJackson

McVeigh will be remembered. His victims wont be. Though I do not support the death penalty in general, I have no sympathy for McVeigh whatsoever. Perhaps the world is fractionally safer with one less psycho like him in it.

yankinlk

im sorry folks, but a guy ADMITS to planting a bomb that kills 164 people including a creche full of children and you want to criticise americans for using the death penalty.

tell me this, what do u think the families in omagh would like done with whoever planted that one?

Magwitch

Add to that that those who bombed Omagh, who did it directly or helped oragnise it may have been released under the term of the Good Friday prisoner release program.

Roll on a pluralist society. It great if you live in a safe neighbourhood, have a good income -you can afford a liberal mind set. Realease and rehab murderers, why not. If their crime was drug related it would not be in the neighbourhoods of the "enlightened". When they do it again it will not be in "liberal" neighbourhood. However the people that testified against them may. But the devil is in the detail.

Dont be at yourself

In a way, I do have respect for McVeigh. Although what he did was wrong, it was no more wrong than what America has done in other countries (as Bugler pointed out). He succeeded in highlighting this to those who actually took an interest in what happened in Oklahoma.

From what I've seen of him, He seemed to be normal, sane and very intelligent. He did not bomb the building because he was insane or wanted to kill children - far from it. he did it to make a point, and he made it.

The american's have depicted him to be a phychotic, evil man when this wasn't quite the truth at all.

America's delight at seeing a man executed was sickening to say the least. The supposed world leader that oh-so-often trumpets justice and morals really showed its true colours.

'An eye for an eye' is not how it should be. I doubt very much that the death of McVeigh will bring any real comfort to the families of the victims - it may even make them worse.

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The face of a child can say it all, especially the mouth part of the face.

Canaboid

Seeing as we're talking dead infants amongst other things, and Tim isn't here to comment, what about all the Iraqi creches that got bombed by U.S weapons ? More than one I'd say.

androphobic

Death penalty or no death penalty, when the survivors, families and friends of the Oklahoma victims wake up tomorrow morning, the pain will be still there.. and it won't have lessened.

Any info on what is being done to attempt to rebuild their lives?

yankinlk

Canaboid, afraid to keep it on topic? or is it easier to sit on the sideline and lob ones in at the gigantic target called America?

and nekkidbibleman...u respect him?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by NekkidBibleMan:
In a way, I do have respect for McVeigh. Although what he did was wrong, it was no more wrong than what America has done in other countries (as Bugler pointed out). He succeeded in highlighting this to those who actually took an interest in what happened in Oklahoma.</font>

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">From what I've seen of him, He seemed to be normal, sane and very intelligent. He did not bomb the building because he was insane or wanted to kill children - far from it. he did it to make a point, and he made it.[/B]</font>

cant he "make a point" without using a bomb?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">The american's have depicted him to be a phychotic, evil man when this wasn't quite the truth at all.

America's delight at seeing a man executed was sickening to say the least. The supposed world leader that oh-so-often trumpets justice and morals really showed its true colours..[/B]</font>

no one was delighted to use the death penalty on this man, however if ever there was a poster boy for it, he is.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">'An eye for an eye' is not how it should be. I doubt very much that the death of McVeigh will bring any real comfort to the families of the victims - it may even make them worse.

[/B]</font>

and of course you would "know" that there arent 164 families going to sleep a little easier tonight...you are kidding yourself. i would equate it to the families of missing children...they would much rather know one way or the other if there loved ones are alive or dead.

Dont be at yourself

There was rejoicing and cheers as McVeigh was put to death. They were practically wiping the drool from their mouthes leading up to his execution.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">and of course you would "know" that there arent 164 families going to sleep a little easier tonight...you are kidding yourself. i would equate it to the families of missing children...they would much rather know one way or the other if there loved ones are alive or dead.</font>

Firstly: Many of the families did not want McVeigh put to death. Didn't some even support the court appeal?

Secondly, to compare it to the families of missing children isn't accurate. Families want to know the faith of their loved ones, so they'll know if they can ever see them again. Killing McVeigh won't bring back the children - in fact this whole fiasco has prolonged the families suffering.

When the families realise that killing McVeigh won't bring the children back, they will (i know I would) feel guilty for taking another human being's (lets not lose sight of that fact) life.

McVeigh was hardly a poster boy for capitol punishment. He wasn't an animal, a savage or a social outcast. He was a normal person. If you ever read what he wrote or listened to him, you would know this. As I've said, he did not set out with the intent to kill all those people (he described them as collatoral damage), and this does set him aside somewhat from other murderers.

lastly, to reaffirm a point: What McVeigh did was wrong. It was a terrible thing to do. But whereas I do not agree with his actions, I do agree with his motives - to expose the hypocracy of the US. All of America mourned for those victims and McVeigh highlighted that people dying are not just statistics - regardless of wheter they are Americans or Iraqis.

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The face of a child can say it all, especially the mouth part of the face.

[This message has been edited by NekkidBibleMan (edited 11-06-2001).]

bugler

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by yankinlk:
Canaboid, afraid to keep it on topic? or is it easier to sit on the sideline and lob ones in at the gigantic target called America?
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More like Americans are afraid for the subject to get ever so slightly off-topic.After all, its not so easy to play the grieving nation for 160 dead civilians when your foreign policy has been instrumental in the deaths of over a half a million Iraqi kids now is it?

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">cant he "make a point" without using a bomb?
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He should be able to.So should America, but so often they revert to bombs to 'make a point', or 'make an example' out of someone or some nation.Could america makes it point on McVeigh without killing him? The reasoning McVeigh used to justify his actions were that they were the actions of the U.S government when they were faced with an 'oppressive regime'.

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">no one was delighted to use the death penalty on this man, however if ever there was a poster boy for it, he is.</font>

So who were those people dancing and cheering before/during/after McVeigh's lungs were collapsing and his heart stopping?

Not all the victims or victims families wanted him to be executed.Some for the reason that they do not support the death penalty, and some because they believed McVeigh held the truth to what actually happened and who was actually involved in the bombing, they do not belive McVeigh was acting alone if actually involved directly at all, and thats not even to mention the theory that the government knew about the bombing and it went ahead due to a botched sting they set up.

Off-kilter:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Add to that that those who bombed Omagh, who did it directly or helped oragnise it may have been released under the term of the Good Friday prisoner release program.</font>

Well the Real-IRA does not benefit from the early release scheme under the Good Friday Agreement, so they shouldn't be/have been released. Please clarify if you are aware of either A)Provisional IRA members(or other groups) being involved in the Omagh bombing or B)Real IRA members getting out of prison early for terrorist crimes.

I don't think anyone referred to rehabilitating McVeigh, even though they may not have ruled it out ultimately, and I don't believe in the class affiliation.So in the US for example, its the 'powerful' working classes who spur on politicians to get tough on crime is it? No. Being ultra hard line on crime is a Pet love of conservatives, who might fit the kind of description you offer of liberals. Show me a popular Elected Respresentative of a deprived area who wants to get tougher on crime, tougher on these terrible criminals who prey on their constituents so often.You won't find many. Having been working class for most of my life(my family only recently attaining 'lower-middle class' status if you like) I certainly do not think that supporting methods of crime reduction other than longer sentences or death for murderers is the preserve of the rich,who of course, will never have to face a criminal in their sheltered lives.

*Note: I started this early then left and came back and continued typing, not knowing nekkid had posted again,as you will see, I ran over many of the same points.

[This message has been edited by bugler (edited 11-06-2001).]

Magwitch

Channel 4 news toady did make a good point on McVeigh, that even those who are against the death penalty are not going to hold McVeigh up as their poster boy.

As for American support for the death penalty, there is a growing consensus in the US - granted a slow one - that the process is flawed and dangerous. The FBI's mess up has heightened that.