"Unthinking racism"

shelly04

Wicknight wrote:

... on a thread about Irish racism
:rolleyes:

yeah,but is that not the same as rasism in ireland including irish AND other cultures living in ireland?? :rolleyes:

Earthhorse

Wicknight wrote:

2)Irish people have experienced racism all over the world for hundreds of years. Surely that would mean we should understand how much silly nonsense it is better than most

True, but most of those would have experienced racism once they emigrated and not returned home. The majority of people living here have no such exposure. In any event being subject to racism as often as not encourages people to behave this way themselves, on the next wave of unfortunates, rather than leading to empathy.

The Corinthian

Wicknight wrote:

But if you have an assumption that is racist (The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others), saying you are just ignorent of other cultures is not an excuse.

Yet you are assuming that all ignorance assumes some form of racial superiority, which is certainly not implied.

On a related race or culture can account for differences in human character or ability.

What his experiences do not do is nullify the experiences of those in the Irish Times article or back up in any way his assumption that "but in reality that is the exception rather than the rule".

But they do put into question the sample of experiences that were correlated for the purposes of an article written by an Irish Times journalist. They’re also first hand and not reported.

By his own admission his experiences with racism are 20 years old which on its own would make his experiences irrelivant when compared to the experiences of modern foreigners in Ireland.

Calling them irrelevant is almost as presumptuous as it is offensive.

If he wants to say "I think this is not true" that is fine, but I take acception to him saying in essence "I know this is not true based on my experiences".

Yet, you seem just as willing to say that you know this is true based upon the reported experiences of another.

Zulu

I recently met a foreign girl, whom I was chatting up. Naturally we got talking about where she was from etc., but when I asked if she was planning on going home, I got stuck in a "digging up" exercise.
Evidently, she misinterpreted the question, and took it up wrong. It was cool after I explained myself - but it pointed out something to me:
I am not racist, but because of a cultural/language difference, what I say can be easily misinterpreted.
...food for a taught.

Nybras

How quickly the Irish have forgotten their roots. They are looked down by the English, or were once known as “The Ni**ers Of Europe”. The Irish are everywhere, Germany, USA, Poland, South Africa and so on….
The country has been invaded, over the past ten years, and rightly so. Where the hell do all the Irish students go every summer, OZ, USA, France, India, Turkey and so on.
It’s not just colour of skin anymore, it’s where you’re from taking all our jobs attitude. These are jobs the Irish wouldn’t work at in there own country, for $hit pay. And now that foreigners are doing theses jobs, f**ken paddy and Mick are complaining about not been able to work at this particular job cause, chinky, spanic, packee, darky, Yankee, Croat or tan have that job.
To be honest, we the Irish haven’t a f**ken leg to stand on.

Frank Drebin

:mad: We employ alot of chinese people many of which understand very little english. Recently at work they put up a load of 'anti racism posters' all of which are in english only.
Are chinese people incapable of being racist that we don't need these posters printed in chinese?
Clearly these posters are aimed at us and that in it self is racism.
Am I the only one that takes offence?
These things tell us to be accepting, tolerant and non racist but everyone else can do whatever the hell they please!
Comments please:

Hobbes

This is unthinking racism...

(False) "What country are you from?"
(True) "Ooh Ireland, I won't be hiring you as Irish are all wife beating drunks".
(insert stereotype of country for different example)

There are two kinds of racists (well probably more but two main kinds). The straight out "Keep the XXX out of our country" and the generally ignorant ones that hear some stupid story and believe it as being for all of those country (egs. Nigeria and 419scams).

Nybras

But who’s to say that half, some, a percentage that come to this country are racist too.
Why does it have to be us, the natives?
Am sure some of the Chinese, Koreans, Nigerians, Indians, American, French, German, and Flemish can be racist while living over here and racist towards the Irish.
Disliking the travelling communities is racist too…

shelly04

Frank Drebin wrote:

:mad: We employ alot of chinese people many of which understand very little english. Recently at work they put up a load of 'anti racism posters' all of which are in english only.
Are chinese people incapable of being racist that we don't need these posters printed in chinese?
Clearly these posters are aimed at us and that in it's self is racism.
Am I the only one that takes offence?
These things tell us to be accepting, tolerant and non racist but everyone else can do whatever the hell they please!
Comments please:

my point exactly!

shelly04

Nybras wrote:

But who’s to say that half, some, a percentage that come to this country are racist too.
Why does it have to be us, the natives?
Am sure some of the Chinese, Koreans, Nigerians, Indians, American, French, German, and Flemish can be racist while living over here and racist towards the Irish.
Disliking the travelling communities is racist too…

too true aswell

elivsvonchiaing

Nybras wrote:

Disliking the travelling communities is racist too…

This is like saying "Disliking lawyers is racist!" The travellers are not a race, they are a self-enclosed social underclass not a race!

shelly04

Agree that disliking travellers isnt rasist as to dislike a traveller, they generally give us a reason to dislike them ie causing rows, stealing..... forigeners however dont always give us reasons except when they're being rasist to us but we can't say that to them cause that makes us rasist alledgy...

elivsvonchiaing

Usually don't put up with this... 'coz i've only had it from 1 Nigerian: " I know a Nigerian doctor, mate who has been here 20 years and can't believe the scum they are letting into the country from all over Nigeria - You are part of that scum mate! You make it sh!t for the rest of your country here - you are scum!" 'Tis the truth! I've only done it once - just got yelled at from 100 yards away, as continued to walk away- the next time I pray there's another Nigerian to back me up or any neighbouring nation, hell any African - except maybe Boer WSA :eek:

shelly04

elivsvonchiaing wrote:

Usually don't put up with this... 'coz i've only had it from 1 Nigerian: " I know a Nigerian doctor, mate who has been here 20 years and can't believe the scum they are letting into the country from all over Nigeria - You are part of that scum mate! You make it sh!t for the rest of your country here - you are scum!" 'Tis the truth! I've only done it once - just got yelled at from 100 yards away, as continued to walk away- the next time I pray there's another Nigerian to back me up or any neighbouring nation, hell any African - except maybe Boer WSA :eek:

Whos scum??

elivsvonchiaing

shelly04 wrote:

Whos scum??

Well I'm not going to give an estimate here - but the Dr mentioned think it's at least 25% of admissions since 1995 - nearly all from Lagos... and two other cities can't remember - tried to pull up a map of Nigeria and had fúckin 3 pop-ups try to install god knows what on my machine - Q.E.D.

In a nutshell a percentage of Nigerians best left for themselves to decide lest I be labelled racist!

shelly04

elivsvonchiaing wrote:

Well I'm not going to give an estimate here - but the Dr mentioned think it's at least 25% of admissions since 1995 - nearly all from Lagos... and two other cities can't remember - tried to pull up a map of Nigeria and had fúckin 3 pop-ups try to install god knows what on my machine - Q.E.D.

In a nutshell a percentage of Nigerians best left for themselves to decide lest I be labelled racist!

ahhhhhhh......

Calibos

I think Evil means that he knows a black nigerian doctor who has dealt with many of his newly arrived fellow country men(though he is probably more Irish than Nigerian now he is here so long) in his line of work and maybe in his local community and that this Nigerian doc reckons that half the newly arrived Nigerians are scumbags.

Suppose it would be like if I moved to Spain and some Spanish asked me why I didn't associate with the local Irish expats only for me to explain that they were all scumbags like the 2 Irish expat drug dealers that went missing over there.

ie he knows what he's talkin' about and sure if even a Nigerian says it etc etc.

Have to say personally I have never met a Nigerian yet that came across as a scumbag or seemed edgy or menacing etc All seemed perfectly polite etc

Have served a fair few Eastern Europeans that came across as sullen and menacing (maybe its just a culture thing..do they ever smile? ) ie. they'd leave the shop and I'd be saying to myself, "Deffo in the Lithuanian or Russian mafia" etc

Theres only one set of asylum seekers I have anything against and its Roma Gypsies. Never had any come in and not try to beg or steal or try and pull some scam.

Going back to the unintended rascism subject of this thread. Had a late 50's early 60's (the older you are the more like to be rascist imo) chap in buying his paper. A young black chap came in and the older guy asked him where he was from. "FFS, I said to myself" The black chap had a FFS look on his face too like he was expecting a subtle rascist dig was on the way. "Africa" he said. The older guy says, "no no, what country are you from? "Nigeria" says the black fella." Ah, I was in Port Arthur, Nigeria a few years ago. "No way man, thats where I am from!!" They chatted outside for a few minutes. Pleasently surprised!

TBH the only time I have heard rascist comments have been from skangers

shelly04

Calibos wrote:

I think Evil means that he knows a black nigerian doctor who has dealt with many of his newly arrived fellow country men(though he is probably more Irish than Nigerian now he is here so long) in his line of work and maybe in his local community and that this Nigerian doc reckons that half the newly arrived Nigerians are scumbags.

Suppose it would be like if I moved to Spain and some Spanish asked me why I didn't associate with the local Irish expats only for me to explain that they were all scumbags like the 2 Irish expat drug dealers that went missing over there.

ie he knows what he's talkin' about and sure if even a Nigerian says it etc etc.

Have to say personally I have never met a Nigerian yet that came across as a scumbag or seemed edgy or menacing etc All seemed perfectly polite etc

Have served a fair few Eastern Europeans that came across as sullen and menacing (maybe its just a culture thing..do they ever smile? ) ie. they'd leave the shop and I'd be saying to myself, "Deffo in the Lithuanian or Russian mafia" etc

Theres only one set of asylum seekers I have anything against and its Roma Gypsies. Never had any come in and not try to beg or steal or try and pull some scam.

Going back to the unintended rascism subject of this thread. Had a late 50's early 60's (the older you are the more like to be rascist imo) chap in buying his paper. A young black chap came in and the older guy asked him where he was from. "FFS, I said to myself" The black chap had a FFS look on his face too like he was expecting a subtle rascist dig was on the way. "Africa" he said. The older guy says, "no no, what country are you from? "Nigeria" says the black fella." Ah, I was in Port Arthur, Nigeria a few years ago. "No way man, thats where I am from!!" They chatted outside for a few minutes. Pleasently surprised!

TBH the only time I have heard rascist comments have been from skangers

ah thanks for that!! getcha now!

pork99

Memnoch wrote:

"you have very good english" and then they are baffled to learn that i got an A1 in honors english in my leaving cert.

Because they have a generalisation in their heads about my country of origin and they seem to think that everyone from there has quite poor english, where the reality is thatat least the educated people there tend of have much better command of the english language than the average Irish person. Still such generalisations and ignorance when thrust in one's face like that are extremely offensive. So now when someone tells me that I have great english I ask them.. "Why shouldn't I have good english?" and I let them know flat out just how offensive I think it is.

Reminds of a something I overheard in a pub here in Dublin a couple of months ago. A Chinese girl came in looking for a job, the barman asked her to fill in a form. When she finished he said "Sign your name there. If you can".

I would love to drop the same barman into Beijing and require him to sign his name in Hanzi characters in order to get home ("if he can" ) Might be tough considering you need to know at least 3,000 of them for basic literacy in Mandarin

Sand

Politically correct nonsense to be honest. What exactly is racist about asking somebody where theyre from? Actually showing an interest in the person? Its where a lot of conversations start.

The question in itself isnt racist - It can, like any question or form of speech be applied in a fashion that betrays racism or bigotry but thats a different issue to "unthinking racism" where people without any racist intent (unthinking afterall) are apparently being racist by asking the question. I wonder if this is unthinking racism, is it possible to ask where someones from without wearing a white sheet? Should it become a social taboo to ask where someone is from?

When I went over to England, people hearing the accent would ask where I was from, what I was doing over there etc etc. Surprisingly, this wasnt a prelude to a racist/bigoted assault but a conversation!?!?! This despite the bad history between our islands. I mean FFS, I know theyve done some stuff to us but Boyzone was unforgivable on our part.

Some people simply have immense chips on their shoulders. I remember questioning the validity of eye witness statements to murders, on the basis there was no supporting evidence. Because the eye witnesses were Iraqi this meant it was racist to question the accuracy of their statements, according to a previous poster on this thread. I must obviously be racist against americans as well because I question the eye witness statements of UFO spotters

Sangre

pork99 wrote:

Reminds of a something I overheard in a pub here in Dublin a couple of months ago. A Chinese girl came in looking for a job, the barman asked her to fill in a form. When she finished he said "Sign your name there. If you can".

I would love to drop the same barman into Beijing and require him to sign his name in Hanzi characters in order to get home ("if he can" ) Might be tough considering you need to know at least 3,000 of them for basic literacy in Mandarin

Wtf, how is that racist? Unless you are looking for racist undertones he was saying that she should sign her name in English to complete the form if she could but it wasn't necessary. Jesus.

elivsvonchiaing

Sand wrote:

... Surprisingly, this wasnt a prelude to a racist/bigoted assault but a conversation!?!?! This despite the bad history between our islands. I mean FFS, I know theyve done some stuff to us but Boyzone was unforgivable on our part.
(

LMAO!

Some years ago I remembered a shop assistant being friendly initially and scowling when I handed over the cash. I figured it was because they just got here and I'd used my left hand. I now make sure to use my right hand in all such dealings - but I reckon fúck-all Irish people know this - I can see this only as ignorance - not unthinking racism though - think some "unthinking" racism could belong in this context.

E.g. next door neighbour is Chinese - strike up a friendship - their kid has a birthday - you get the kid a watch or a swiss army knife. This would be highly insulting/threatening. We should learn the basic taboos for most cultures here - and this should be thought in schools imho!

simu

elivsvonchiaing wrote:

E.g. next door neighbour is Chinese - strike up a friendship - their kid has a birthday - you get the kid a watch or a swiss army knife. This would be highly insulting/threatening. We should learn the basic taboos for most cultures here - and this should be thought in schools imho!

It's ok to give knives to kids in Ireland? :eek:

elivsvonchiaing

simu wrote:

It's ok to give knives to kids in Ireland? :eek:

'Twas in my day (ie. when I was a Kid) There were few chinese then (<2000) and it was safe to walk the streets of Limerick, Dublin, Cork, Galway etc.
(locals didn't have so many knives back then/were less willing to use them).


No-one had any idea of chinese culture then so when chinese neighbours got gifts of knifes - from the Irish - they just accepted it as an omen of death in the family - just theory!

OK I got a present of a Swiss Army knife from an aunt of mine - probably doesn't happen any more ... but watches and clocks - more aimseir laithreach - cutlery sets e.g.as wedding presents remain taboo. But how many people know this? :eek:

Sangre

Tbh, I couldn't care less if they're insulted by my gift intented in good faith, they should be adjusting to our culture not ours, they won't last long if they're constantly being offended by the dirty left hand etc.,
Oh well, guess that makes me a racist.

elivsvonchiaing

:cool:

Sangre wrote:

Tbh, I couldn't care less if they're insulted by my gift intented in good faith, they should be adjusting to our culture not ours, they won't last long if they're constantly being offended by the dirty left hand etc.,
Oh well, guess that makes me a racist.

I won't reveal whether I'm left handed or right-handed - the truth is I wipe my arse with the dominant hand - as we do in the West. Am inclined to think this thinking wont exist in 30 years. Ffs right handed people wipe their arse with right-hand! Cultures that have been trained otherwise don't take long to adapt imho!

Unthinking racism - or food for thought? Racism if you want to call it - btw if you think this post racist - you're the racist!

Sangre

Are you trying to make a point?

elivsvonchiaing

Sangre wrote:

Are you trying to make a point?

fortunately yes! Irish are mainly ignorant of other cultures!

We should not resort to govt forms in Arabic, Punjabi etc. we should assume a minimum level of citizenship which is basic English - think Gaeilge as mandatory language by Dept Ed. should be rethought imho

Think that was pretty much the point -OK this was obscure - but it is now nicely aired!

What I was trying to say... we don't need to fall into traps of various british boroughs) we don't need official forms in arabic, kis-swahili etc. We maybe do need officials that can act as interpretors.) A state form that requires under 50,000 users should not be translated - imho!

[EDIT] About a borough of London a friend lived in - some years back - they did this - translated all the SW forms into 27 languages - seemed wasteful/overly politically correct then - unfortunately he's asleep now... Would confirm this otherwise!
[/EDIT]

Redleslie2

Sand wrote:

Some people simply have immense chips on their shoulders.

They shure do.

Sand wrote:

Ive got issues with fire, I make wild generalisations about them all being hot without knowing if they all are. All water being wet and so on. When I meet a French person whose polite/mannerly and *isnt* looking for something from me then Ill allow that there is an exception to the rule. Actually If I meet anyone whose ever met a polite/mannerly French person who *wasnt* looking for something from them, Ill allow there is an exception.

Megatron

DublinWriter wrote:

In my humble experience we Irish are the most racist nation on the face of the earth.

We yes we are a Ravist community as a whole , however we pale in comparrison with the Finnish ( from my own experence), it's almost like the deep south in the 50's- 60's. I might not be black but some of my friends are and being asked to leave a pub because they are with you is pretty scary imo