"Unthinking racism"

simu

There was an article in the Irish Times today about how racism (amongst other things) may be preventing Ireland from attracting talented scientists etc to come and work here. So, they interviewed a few people who have come to work here about their experiences with the Irish. Along with complaints about racist name calling and other such behaviour no sane person would condone, people also mentioned what is called "unthinking racism". Examples of this were Irish people often asking where the person was from or, in the case of one guy, an Irish person asking him if he was going to have an arranged marriage.

I fail to see what is so offensive about such questions unless they were pronounced in a deliberately snide manner. Any time I have lived abroad (USA and France), I have experienced similar questions from people about my nationality and strange assumptions about what life in Ireland is like. It's a bit annoying, especially if you get the same questions over and over again but it's hardly a blot on one's existence. In fact, talking about where you come from etc gives you a chance to start a conversation with a person and get to know them if you so wish. At the very least, you have to accept that people in other countries might know very little about your place of origin and culture.

What do others think about this?

pickarooney

Eh? Asking where someone's from is racism? As in Wheearr ye from ye fookin pakeee?

DublinWriter

simu wrote:

Examples of this were Irish people often asking where the person was from or, in the case of one guy, an Irish person asking him if he was going to have an arranged marriage.

...or the black tourist from Manchester over here in search of the 'craic' getting kicked to death on Pearse St. two years ago outside a chipper.

There's nothing like the abused to repeat the patterns of the abuser. In my humble experience we Irish are the most racist nation on the face of the earth.

simu

DublinWriter wrote:

...or the black tourist from Manchester over here in search of the 'craic' getting kicked to death on Pearse St. two years ago outside a chipper.

There's nothing like the abused to repeat the patterns of the abuser. In my humble experience we Irish are the most racist nation on the face of the earth.

That's overt racism and as I said, I don't know how any sane person could condone it. The point of this thread was to discuss if there was a lot of unintended racism in Ireland as well or if people were being too sensitive.

Sangre

Pfffy, complete nonsense I think. If anything its a good thing, people are talking to you, they're interested and curious about you.
I think some foreign people might see this as racist because of what they're used to but they do not realise that in Ireland today, from my experience 90%+ of non caucasion were not born in Ireland. Therefore asking where you are from is a very valid question, however in America it could be an underhanded way to point out someones differences.

Im often asked where Im from because I would look more continental than Irish despite pure 'irish' blood lines going back as far as I know....unless the postman got a little frisky once.

Zombrex

simu wrote:

I fail to see what is so offensive about such questions unless they were pronounced in a deliberately snide manner.

The offense come from the fact that more often than not the questions and comments are being asked in a demeaning, we are superior fashion, that also drag in a whole load of negative sterotypes about foreign cultures. It is the freak show "look at their funny culture, do they really do that!" aspect that foreigners find offense, and to be perfectly honest Ireland is full of it especially in the older generation.

I once had a doctor tell me about a holiday he had to South Africa after the end of Aparthite (sp?). He told me the country had really gone down hill because "they" really didn't know what they were doing. Of course you can't say that because people think you are racist, he said. Now that comment wasn't meant in a snide manner, but it certainly was racist (and a pretty stupid comment and all).

elivsvonchiaing

Some years ago I lived in almost exclusively black neighbourhood. (Think about 25 -1 ratio). Got really drunk one night and when I got home fancied some music. I woke up with Patti Smith (the fúckin CD was on repeat!) declaring "Jimi Hendrix was a ******! ... ****** ****** ******"... and I wasn't macheted to death :eek: Think in most parts of Ireland, If I was black did this with Bob Marley, any Reggae, Soca, Ska etc I'd have the door kicked in and the hurley sticks would be thrashing me to death! Ireland IS a racist country imho!

I haven't seen racial violence but I've witnessed plenty of racial verbal abuse!

Sangre

Wicknight wrote:

The offense come from the fact that more often than not the questions and comments are being asked in a demeaning, we are superior fashion, that also drag in a whole load of negative sterotypes about foreign cultures. It is the freak show "look at their funny culture, do they really do that!" aspect that foreigners find offense, and to be perfectly honest Ireland is full of it especially in the older generation.

No, more often than not it isn't. I can actually see it from both sides here, I am often asked where I am from and I had asked people where they are from or there parents. Its a part of who they are so I'd like to know.
Despite what some people say I think Ireland can still be a very friendly/outgoing/chatty society where topics such as weather/sport are done ad infinitium, so when topic like someone talking about their heritage/culture comes up it can make a nice change. People are sometimes too sensitive to racial issues and can read too much into something.

I actually remember reading about a foreigner who was annoyed by this at first but then realised it was just plain curiousity/friendliest.
Its hardly ignorant to want to learn about someone/somewhere else is it?

Of course I completely condone any deliberate racism, its the one thing that really, really pisses me off.

Imposter

From my experience this happens everywhere. It's not intended as racist but can come accross that way. I think it mostly just comes down to the ignorance of the person asking the question and the sensitivities of the person being asked. I think most of the time the person that comes out with such a question hasn't travelled much or had that much contact with people from other races or countries. You even get a similar thing between jackeens and culchies

shelly04

Imo we are not the only ones being rasist here in ireland, the forgienors(sp) are just as bad except the irish get pulled up on it more. :eek:

Zombrex

Oh the old "why pick on us, look at them they are just as bad"

A few points -

1) Foreigners are from another country so I don't really care if they are racist bigots because they are not representing my country

2)Irish people have experienced racism all over the world for hundreds of years. Surely that would mean we should understand how much silly nonsense it is better than most

3)Do you have anything to actually back up your point, personal experience, an statisitical study, anything? Making a point like that with no backup is not a good idea on Boards.ie

seamus

Wicknight wrote:

The offense come from the fact that more often than not the questions and comments are being asked in a demeaning, we are superior fashion, that also drag in a whole load of negative sterotypes about foreign cultures. It is the freak show "look at their funny culture, do they really do that!" aspect that foreigners find offense, and to be perfectly honest Ireland is full of it especially in the older generation.

Not really though, such things are often said without malice, out of pure curiosity. Yes, it's ignorance, but it's not malicious. Asking "where are you from" is a very Irish thing. I get asked that in Ireland, and I'm pretty obviously from Dublin. The Irish have a style of conversation that can be construed as intrusive and ignorant by other cultures. We tend to ask questions like "Where are ye from?", "Are ye married?", "So what's your home like?", purely as conversation fillers. It's completely innocent, because that's our style of conversation - they're the same questions we ask of eachother.

Memnoch

Sadly, this kind of racism is alive very much in western and irish society today. The thing is its not just in the issue of what people think but also translates into actions and attitudes. Backdoor racism is the reason that I won't be continuing my medical career in ireland in the long term.

Do you have any non-white friends that are doctors? If you are really good friends with them, then speak to them, and they will tell you how utterly discriminated against they feel in their profession working in Ireland. How despite their work or skills they are constantly denied advancement in their careers in this country and the best jobs.

For an example, go into Beaumont hospital and count the number of junior doctors. Then count the proportion that are non-white.

Now count the specialist registrars or consultants. And count the number of non-white amongst them.

I'd say among junior doctors (this is just on basic observation) the ratio could easily be 50% or even much greater. But among specialist registrars or consultants you will be HARD pressed to find ANY non-white staff.
This ratio tends to improve in the perhiphery of ireland as you look at less prestigious hospitals. But even so the ratio is quite dire.

There may be those who believe me here and those who do not. But my family worked here for several years, in the end they HAD to move to england because they were just not given any opportunities in this country despite their endless toil. There is backdoor racism in england too, but its a lot less.

I guess I can only speak from my point of view, that of my family's or other non-white doctors/medical students to whom I've spoken. But ireland from our point of view is a horribly racist country.

Memnoch

oh and as an example of the more mundane sort of non-thinking racism, I often get told by irish people.

"you have very good english" and then they are baffled to learn that i got an A1 in honors english in my leaving cert.

Because they have a generalisation in their heads about my country of origin and they seem to think that everyone from there has quite poor english, where the reality is thatat least the educated people there tend of have much better command of the english language than the average Irish person. Still such generalisations and ignorance when thrust in one's face like that are extremely offensive. So now when someone tells me that I have great english I ask them.. "Why shouldn't I have good english?" and I let them know flat out just how offensive I think it is.

shelly04

Memnoch wrote:

Sadly, this kind of racism is alive very much in western and irish society today. The thing is its not just in the issue of what people think but also translates into actions and attitudes. Backdoor racism is the reason that I won't be continuing my medical career in ireland in the long term

its alive in every country, its wrong, but its not just irish people that are rasist. always wrong

The Corinthian

Wicknight wrote:

The offense come from the fact that more often than not the questions and comments are being asked in a demeaning, we are superior fashion, that also drag in a whole load of negative sterotypes about foreign cultures. It is the freak show "look at their funny culture, do they really do that!" aspect that foreigners find offense, and to be perfectly honest Ireland is full of it especially in the older generation.

Dreadful rubbish.

When I first came to Ireland I was as exotic as you got. My skin is a slight shade darker than your average Irishman, my name still causes issues on the phone, I ate weird foods (at weirder hours) and at first I didn’t speak the language either. As such, I can probably say with some authority that I know something on this subject.

The Irish can be racist and xenophobic, and I was subject to some of this in my youth, but realistically not a Hell of a lot. Comments such as the ones described in the Irish Times article can be asked in a demeaning, we are superior fashion, that also drag in a whole load of negative stereotypes about foreign cultures, but in reality that is the exception rather than the rule. Most of the time it’s simply as a result of ignorance. Sometimes the comments are even posed in such a way as to get confirmation or otherwise.

The article sounds as if it is another example of how the Irish Times is desperate to outdo everyone in political correctness.

kermitdfrog

I think people are misunderstanding the thread topic - I don't think any reasonable rational person would condone what happens in the medical industry as Memnoch has pointed out. And no-one would condone the attack as outlined by DublinWriter or any similar acts.

However the thread originator seemed more concerned with the 'unthinking racism' as suggested in the original article. I am among those who fails to see the racism, intended or otherwise, in asking someone where they are from. admittedly it is a rash assumption and can cause offence to ask someone who is not causcasian (sp?) where they are from purely on the basis that they are nor white.

But I would consider that a lot of the people who do take offence are being a little bit too sensitive. In one of my jobs, a call centre,there was a lot of English people working with us, as well as people from across Ireland, a number of operators who spoke Asian languages and some Spanish speakers. A normal conversation among work colleagues would be to ask were someone was from - they may have a different accent, may look different, or whatever. There is no racist intent in this.

And I'm an genuinely sorry for those to whom a question like 'Where are you from?' is offence, I truly am. I guess what I am trying to say is that P.C. culture has gone too far. It is ok to notice differences in people or cultures - there ARE differences. That's what makes the world such a wonderful place. It's when people are judged or looked down on for their differences that problems occur - for example in the medical profession like Memnoch has pointed out (I have no experience of this so will take what you say to be true, in which case it is a wrong and shamelful situation). But I am not ashamed not say I do notice if a person is black, white, Asian, Indian, whatever - the point is I notice a person first. Differences are not bad things, why pretend they dont exist?

If I ask a person where they are from, it's out of a genuine interest. I am not looking to make assumptions about them, I am not looking to judge them - I want to know if the person in front of me is from Cork, Galway, Addis Ababa, Shanghai or Sydney. I have a foreign second name, and when people ask where I'm from I dont get annoyed or offended - I explain to them where the name comes from and the history of it. Simple. Because they asked, and were interested enough to ask.

You can tell whether a person is asking a a question in genuine interest, or with malicious intent. The world is full of horrible people, and we have to learn to deal with them without judging the rest of a people of a nation. Surely to presume the intent of a civil, fiendly question like 'Where are you from?' is a bad one, is to judge the person asking the question - an act which is as ' unthinkingly racist' as any other perhaps?

Sangre

Memnoch wrote:

I'd say among junior doctors (this is just on basic observation) the ratio could easily be 50% or even much greater. But among specialist registrars or consultants you will be HARD pressed to find ANY non-white staff.
This ratio tends to improve in the perhiphery of ireland as you look at less prestigious hospitals. But even so the ratio is quite dire.

Ok, obviously you have a much better opinion on this but I would have thought there was a number of reasons for this, mainly:
1) Ireland is only recently becoming a multi-cultural thing, hence the influx of non-Irish junior doctors but they have not been hear long enough/too young to be specialists/consultants
2)Ireland has a crap health care system and a lot of them leave but those with Irish roots etc., have a greater reason to stay
3)This one I would think explains it the best. As I have been told by a number of friends in medicine, it is quite common to be sent to Ireland to train to become a doctor and then return home to make living, this is especially prevelant in Arab countries, hence the large number of non-irish doctors but as they age they decide to return home.

Having a couple of friends in medicine in Ucd, they say are nearly in the minority being Irish but a lot of those studying have no intention of practising here but because they pay large fees it is a great boost to those who do plan on staying.

Memnoch wrote:

where the reality is thatat least the educated people there tend of have much better command of the english language than the average Irish person

Oh and Memnoch, now you're the one being racist...

Zombrex

shelly04 wrote:

its alive in every country, its wrong, but its not just irish people that are rasist. always wrong

Shelly this is a thread about racisim in Ireland That is the topic. You keep repeating other people are racist too as if that has some barring on Irish racisim. And as far as I can tell no one has ever said that racism is ok when it is not coming from an Irish person.

elivsvonchiaing

Think Memnoch has just highlighted the hypocracy within the Irish medical system. There was a leading oncologist (Irish born) who wanted to come back - from the states - he was basically black-balled by the powers that be. This was just sheer protectionism.

The whole lot of them should be sacked (senior *-ists in every hospital) and the jobs be given to junior staff (with 10 years experience) who do the diagnosis anyhow!

<Rant Over> Memnoch I think the medical industry here is protectionist, but I do think you need to appreciate that the middle class here aren't as educated as much of the middle class in Asia for example - I'm thinking mainly of India here. You can be an arch-gobshyte with not even a leaving certificate when middle-class here. You have to make some allowances for
sh!theads, think you are right about racism but not exactly in the context you mentioned - I was once asked in the US where I was from - Ireland - ya'll speak good English there :eek: I simply put this down to ignorance!

Zombrex

The Corinthian wrote:

Dreadful rubbish.

When I first came to Ireland I was as exotic as you got. My skin is a slight shade darker than your average Irishman, my name still causes issues on the phone, I ate weird foods (at weirder hours) and at first I didn’t speak the language either. As such, I can probably say with some authority that I know something on this subject.

The Irish can be racist and xenophobic, and I was subject to some of this in my youth, but realistically not a Hell of a lot.

Lucky for you ... of course if a slightly darker skinned person who has lived here for a while doesn't experience racism that often then black skinned people with accents just off the plane probably don't either ... good point.

The Corinthian wrote:

Comments such as the ones described in the Irish Times article can be asked in a demeaning, we are superior fashion, that also drag in a whole load of negative stereotypes about foreign cultures, but in reality that is the exception rather than the rule.

Based on your expeirence over everyone elses .... ok then, I'm convinced.

Zombrex

The Corinthian wrote:

Most of the time it’s simply as a result of ignorance.

elivsvonchiaing wrote:

I simply put this down to ignorance!

Racisim is ignorance.

Saying he wasn't being racisit he is just ignorant of different cultures is silly. Racisim IS ignorance of other cultures.

seamus

Wicknight wrote:

Racisim is ignorance.

Saying he wasn't being racisit he is just ignorant of different cultures is silly. Racisim IS ignorance of other cultures.

Racism is based on ignorance (generally). Being ignorant of another culture doesn't automatically make one racist. If it does, by Jesus I must wear a white pointed hood, because there's a lot of cultures I know nothing about.

The Corinthian

Wicknight wrote:

Lucky for you ... of course if a slightly darker skinned person who has lived here for a while doesn't experience racism that often then black skinned people with accents just off the plane probably don't either ... good point.

If you bother to read my post I was discussing my experiences from over twenty years ago. At that stage being French, Spanish or Italian was considered as exotic as a Nigerian or Chinese is today, simply because there were no foreigners to speak of in Ireland.

Based on your expeirence over everyone elses .... ok then, I'm convinced.

Not everyone else’s. Just the experience promoted in the Irish Times article.

And yours. I can safely say I’d have more experience on the subject than you.

kermitdfrog

Wicknight

I don't think you're quite getting the point of this thread - racism is not being denied, we're not even debating to what extent it is or isn't apparent. It's 'Unthinking Racism' that's being discussed, so I fail to see you're points.

Quote:
Racisim is ignorance.

Saying he wasn't being racisit he is just ignorant of different cultures is silly. Racisim IS ignorance of other cultures.

Not true, not even a bit - I am ignorant of many cultures and peoples around the world, and I would presume that you are not all-knowing about every culture on earth. Do not confuse ignorance for pre-judging.

Quote
Lucky for you ... of course if a slightly darker skinned person who has lived here for a while doesn't experience racism that often then black skinned people with accents just off the plane probably don't either ... good point.

Actually his/her experience is valid. He/she has experience of what we are discussing so they're experiences are not only valid but the essence of the topic.

Quote
Based on your expeirence over everyone elses .... ok then, I'm convinced.
Of course in his/her own experience, that's what they were discussing. No need to get sarcy

shelly04

Wicknight wrote:

Shelly this is a thread about racisim in Ireland That is the topic. You keep repeating other people are racist too as if that has some barring on Irish racisim. And as far as I can tell no one has ever said that racism is ok when it is not coming from an Irish person.

yeah i no its in ireland but irish people arent the only bloody rasists in ireland. but its only the irish that you hear about

elivsvonchiaing

Wicknight wrote:

Racisim is ignorance.

Saying he wasn't being racisit he is just ignorant of different cultures is silly. Racisim IS ignorance of other cultures.

NO! This isn't true! Being ignorant of other cultures is just plain ignorance. Being ignorant of other cultures is just ignorance that's all!- thinking if you ever even look at my son/daughter - THAT is racism!

Thinking - hope tf you don't buy that house - that is racism!

Very sorry, but I have tenant already interested in the property - I can take your phone number if it doesn't happen! - Now that is racism!

"Jaysus you speak great English!" - that is just pure ignorance - it exists

[edit]"Yeah, Yeah, How, Yeah, How wouldya feel if you were me?" - Jimi Hendrix - prediction posthumous No.1 in 2005 (maybe cover?) [/edit]

Zombrex

seamus wrote:

Racism is based on ignorance (generally). Being ignorant of another culture doesn't automatically make one racist.

No it doesn't.

But if you have an assumption that is racist (The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others), saying you are just ignorent of other cultures is not an excuse.

That was the point I was making.

Zombrex

shelly04 wrote:

but its only the irish that you hear about

... on a thread about Irish racism
:rolleyes:

Zombrex

kermitdfrog wrote:

Actually his/her experience is valid. He/she has experience of what we are discussing so they're experiences are not only valid but the essence of the topic.

His experiences are both valid and the essence of the topic.

What his experiences do not do is nullify the experiences of those in the Irish Times article or back up in any way his assumption that "but in reality that is the exception rather than the rule".

By his own admission his experiences with racism are 20 years old which on its own would make his experiences irrelivant when compared to the experiences of modern foreigners in Ireland.

If he wants to say "I think this is not true" that is fine, but I take acception to him saying in essence "I know this is not true based on my experiences".

landser

the point of this thread was re the Irish Times article re Unthinking racism.

what a load of bull. this is typical of the liberal agenda promoted by the IT in general. Jesus wept, if i ask someone where they're from now, even if done as a general conversation starter, i'm a f***en racist. what the hell am i doing wrong. if i meet someome from munster, can i ask them where they're from, or am i being a regionalist!!??

i didn't know i was a racist until the IT showed me the light! I am guilty, not of a thought crime, but of a sub concious non thought crime!!