Kill The Bill

mycroft

Gurgle wrote:

Yes, as in every barrel there are bad apples.

IMO its a better idea to make the Gardai more accountable for the use/abuse of their power than to compromise that power.

Well and my point is the system of accountably isn't working now, lets put in a system before we give them more power.

ionapaul

Yes, if this system of accountability included sizeable compensation to be paid to those falsely fined, searched, etc...I think they would be on to something. Make the State pay if it f**ks up via an over-zealous Guard and hopefully the number of f**k ups drops. There would always be some f**k ups, at the end of the day.

mycroft

ionapaul wrote:

Yes, if this system of accountability included sizeable compensation to be paid to those falsely fined, searched, etc...I think they would be on to something. Make the State pay if it f**ks up via an over-zealous Guard and hopefully the number of f**k ups drops. There would always be some f**k ups, at the end of the day.

You mean you and I pay?

The phrase f*ck that, springs to mind!!!!

I'd rather the gardai are disciplined, sanctioned or fined for improper use of their powers.

Victor

Sleepy wrote:

You want to prevent the Guards from doing their jobs in a country with crime as bad as it is in this country?

And such people can be dealt with by remanding them in custody instead of allowing bail (we had a referendum on this).

Sleepy wrote:

To my knowledge, jay-walking isn't actually a crime in this country.

It is.

Johnnymcg wrote:

from what I know basically at the moment in order to obtain a search warrant the gardai have to apply to local judges, this law removes that hands this safeguard and gives this power to local superintendents at their discretion, - a very worrying development

There is of course the Judge Curtin case.

Regarding the litter: where is this reputation? where is the data to suggest that we are "one of Europe's dirtiest countries"?

The Business Against Litter (?) survey published last week?

dabhal wrote:

Plus as a sidebar on this, it’s a simple fact that the prison service needs to be overhauled and population capacity increased so even if these powers worked there are not enough prison places for the convictions.

Meanwhile McDowell wants to knock down prisons....

AngelofFire wrote:

The problem with on the spot fines is that, a Garda can issue a fine to someone if they suspect them of being in breach of the law,

Surely if people are paying fines, it means freeing up prison space for more serious crimes? Proportionality of offence and all that?

and the person will have to pay regardless of whether they are guilty or not.

Can you quote the clause where it says this?

AngelofFire wrote:

This allows the Gardai to act as both judge and Jury, this infringes on article 34 of bunreacht na hEireann which states that Justice shall be administered in courts.

Then this act will be struck down as unconstitutional and you can go on your merry way.

Captain Trips wrote:

Summary facts (read the report for the full list) of interest: 1. We have the 2nd lowest rate of recorded crime in europe, after Spain

Is the operative word here "recorded"?

Gurgle

Victor wrote:

Sleepy wrote:

To my knowledge, jay-walking isn't actually a crime in this country.

It is.

Any reason to think they're going to start handing out fines for 'crimes' that have been ignored for the last 50 years ?

If I was caught doing something I shouldn't be doing, I would rather be fined on the spot than dragged through the court. The courts might even be freed up a bit to deal with real criminals properly.

Victor

Gurgle wrote:

Any reason to think they're going to start handing out fines for 'crimes' that have been ignored for the last 50 years ?

Because ticketing is a much better form of enforcement, because (a) it eases administration (b) strengths the cause-effect relationship of crime-punishment.

Boggle

Anyone who thinks giving the gardai are living in fairyland... a MAGICAL land with HONEST gardai who dont sit in pubs drinking themselves stupid drinking themselves stupid, bitchin about drink drivers only to drive home themselves....(sure if we get stopped we just flash the badge through the window)

...and gardai who dont go around raiding premises for after hours drinking while themselves having a lock-in at Johny fox's until 5. (tonight apparently! - some garda units Xmas do!)

They abuse their position as they are - imagine what would happen if they had the power to finish the job. (you need transparability and proof to convict someone of anything as there is no such thing as a minor crime)

dabhal

oscarBravo wrote:

What do you mean by "an independent source of recall"?

refer to my other post explaining this

[/QUOTE]
In what way? Rounding up their political enemies into concentration camps? Or (the bloody nerve) telling people what to do?
[/QUOTE]
No, abusing innocent people because they know there is nothing they can do about it. Calling them names asking stupid questions like "do you want to get arrested" Heard that one on a few occasions and it was not to a bunch of yobbos either just people who dared have a bit of fun within earshot of a garda.

[/QUOTE]
There seems to be a perception that Gardaí are just people who wear funny clothes, to be ignored if their instructions don't suit you. On the contrary: they are a police force, vested with a certain level of authority by the State. When you challenge a Garda, you're challenging (in a small way) the authority of the State.
[/QUOTE]
God forbid if the state is out of order I say something........sorry Stalin

[/QUOTE]
What on earth makes you think it's OK to swear at a police officer? Maybe when people have the maturity to handle being policed, the police will be less of a problem.[/QUOTE]
I live in the real world, if someone gets my back up I may well swear at them, I'm only human, I would swear at a friend aswell, it should not be used as an excuse to arrest someone.

[/QUOTE]
Maybe when people have the maturity to handle being policed, the police will be less of a problem.
[/QUOTE]
Maybe we should all be beaten for having opinions until we are :eek:

Dabhal

oscarBravo

dabhal wrote:

refer to my other post explaining this

Right. If you were a little more careful with your quote tags, it would be easier to understand your points.

dabhal wrote:

No, abusing innocent people because they know there is nothing they can do about it. Calling them names asking stupid questions like "do you want to get arrested" Heard that one on a few occasions and it was not to a bunch of yobbos either just people who dared have a bit of fun within earshot of a garda.

That's a rhetorical question, not a stupid question.

The "having a bit of fun" fuzziness is where the lines begin to be drawn. Some people's idea of fun is watching TV; others' is burning out cars. I don't know where in the continuum yours falls, but in my experience a garda tends not to interfere with "fun" unless there's a law being broken, or in danger of being broken.

dabhal wrote:

God forbid if the state is out of order I say something........sorry Stalin

I have no idea what you mean by this. If you disagree with the law, vote for someone who'll change it.

dabhal wrote:

I live in the real world, if someone gets my back up I may well swear at them, I'm only human, I would swear at a friend aswell, it should not be used as an excuse to arrest someone.

You'll find it's easier to get on with everyone - friends and gardaí alike - when you learn to exercise some self-control. There are situations where it's inappropriate to swear at people, no matter what you're feeling at the time.

dabhal wrote:

Maybe we should all be beaten for having opinions until we are

Been arrested for having an opinion, have you?

dabhal

Well done oscarbavo, now go put a gold star on your chart.
In my best comicbook Guy voice
"worst replies ever"

oscarBravo

I quake before your superior debating skillz. You've shown all my hollow rhetoric for what it is: a pale shadow of your infinite wisdom. I shall retire herewith from boards.ie, knowing that I can never win an argument with you around.

mycroft

dabhal wrote:

Well done oscarbavo, now go put a gold star on your chart.
In my best comicbook Guy voice
"worst replies ever"

And i in mine, 'worst sarcasm ever"

You lost I'd recommend you return those grapes to the shop they seem a little sour.