Kill The Bill

Chaos-Engine

www.killthebill.net (Links to a Labour site for the moment?)

This is a campaign that will be launching tomorrow to oppose the Criminal Justice Bill 2004 which will give Gardai powers that are in direct contradiction to the Constitution:

-Gardai issuing on the spot fines for any crime, e.g. JayWalking! will be the new money maker. Be prepared for no decression and fines for any little thing.
-Gardai issuing their own search warrents(with no judical oversight)
-Gardai being able to extend detention time without offically charging you


In certain cases this will effectively make the Gardai the prosecutor, judge and jury. Hidden away in section 29 of the Bill with the relatively inconspicuus title of " Ammedment of Criminal Justice (Public Order) Act 1994 " the new bill proposes to allow "a member of the Garda Siochana who has reasonable grounds for believing that a person is committing, or has committed an offence under Section 5 ... may serve on the person personally or by post a notice..."

This notice will basically be - pay us a fine within the next 28 days or we are taking you to court where you may end up with a far heavier fine of 1,500 euro. The Garda does not need proof or evidence that the person is breaking the law or been drunk and disorderly - the garda simply has to satisfy him or herself that they have reasonable grounds!

Now how many young people, unless they are very affluent, will be able to afford not to pay the on the spot fine regardless of whether or not they are innocent or guilty

The Launch is tomorrow
Date & Time: 11am, Tuesday, 7 December
Venue: Earl of Kildare Hotel, Kildare Street, Dublin 2
Speakers: Reid Proffessor of Law at Trinity College, Ivana Bacik and Labour Spokeperson on justice, Joe Costello TD.

I think this issue transends party politics and should be a concern of any young person in Ireland as resent surveys have shown 18-25s are the most likely to come into contact with the Gardai in whatever form.

While I do think the Gardai need a serious overhaul of their powers they have absoleutly no accountiblity. We need a Patten Style Obudsman to keep an eye on the Gardai. The proposed Inspectorite will have no powers and no staff worth talking about. If the Criminal Justice Bill 2004 passes we will live in a Police State OFFICALLY. Michael MCDowll seems to want to create a personal police state after his family has unfortunitly been a victim of violent crime directly. I think its a case of cause-and-effect...

McDowell bashing asside anyone who cares about Democracy and innocence until proven guilty should oppose this Bill.

Sleepy

You want to prevent the Guards from doing their jobs in a country with crime as bad as it is in this country?

Gardai issuing on the spot fines for any crime, e.g. JayWalking! will be the new money maker. Be prepared for no decression and fines for any little thing.

To my knowledge, jay-walking isn't actually a crime in this country. Even if it were to be used against as innocuous a crime as littering would this really be a bad thing? We might lose our reputation as one of Europe's dirtiest countries.

Gardai issuing their own search warrents(with no judical oversight)

So, you mean the drug dealers can be prosecuted? What kind of democracy to we live in at all? If you've nothing to hide, a search warrant can do you no harm.

Gardai being able to extend detention time without offically charging you

This would actually reduce crime rates in this country considering the number of crimes that are comitted by thugs awaiting trial. hardly a bad thing really...

dabhal

Here are the details

http://www.oireachtas.ie/documents/bills28/bills/2004/3404/b3404d.pdf

seamus

I see links to indymedia, and simultaneously the credibility goes down and the paranoia rating goes waaay up.

We need more information basically. The only thing I could find on www.justice.ie was a General Scheme of the Criminal Justice Act (2003), which specifies that only judges or superintendents can issue warrants.

Have you any links?

[Edit: Thanks dabhal]

mycroft

Sleepy wrote:

So, you mean the drug dealers can be prosecuted? What kind of democracy to we live in at all? If you've nothing to hide, a search warrant can do you no harm.

1. This is the classic mistake. A Gardaí's job, in this order, is to protect lives, and to uphold the laws of this country. The current criminal justice bill basically allows Gardaí to arrest anyone who doesn't do what the Gardaí tells them to do (section 6 of the criminal justice bill) essential it gives the Gardaí discretion to decide what is the law and what isn't, a direct breach of their powers.

2. There is a procedure which is necessary before a Gardaí is allowed to commit a search, a body of evidence that must be amassed, presented and weighed upon. I'm sick of this "if you've nothing to hid you've nothing to fear" The Baron family in Donegal had nothing to hid, they had plenty to fear though in a campaign of terror and harassment by Donegal Gardaí. There are constitutional rights which are necessary to ensure the freedoms of individual are not breached. I'm terrified by what a group of corrupt cops could get away with.

The criminal justice bill allows Gardaí to become law makers which is not their job, they are law enforcers.

Sparks

Thing with the CJB2004 is that it's got a lot of things in Part Five that amend a dozen different acts. Which isn't a good way to pass legislation. Basicly, the Dail Debate on this when it comes up will be meaningless for a lot of the stuff in the Bill as that stuff will be changed in Committee. For example, there are amendments to the Firearms Acts that are due to be added in Committee stage, and no details have been given out, despite repeated requests from groups like the National Target Shooting Association, who have bona fide concerns on that matter.

Chaos-Engine

seamus wrote:

I see links to indymedia, and simultaneously the credibility goes down and the paranoia rating goes waaay up.

We need more information basically. The only thing I could find on www.justice.ie was a General Scheme of the Criminal Justice Act (2003), which specifies that only judges or superintendents can issue warrants.

Have you any links?

Refare to Dabhal's post... .While reading the Bill pay attention to the Miscellaneous sections.

While I agree with your comments about indymedia Seamus sometimes they just jump on band wagons. I would pay attention to this issue though seen as Ivana Bacik and Jos Costello TD are specking and launching it. I would regard them as very much in the interest of Civil Liberties and my right to a fair and civil society...

seamus

Can anyone post up the sections where they believe the so-called infringements are to occur?
The only thing I see in relation to warrants and extension of custody states that it only applies to a superintendent or above. The only section dealing with fines is formality, increasing fines slightly and putting them in euros.

I could be missing something, please educate me.

Annasopra

from what I know basically at the moment in order to obtain a search warrant the gardai have to apply to local judges, this law removes that hands this safeguard and gives this power to local superintendents at their discretion, - a very worrying development

The bill is also bringing in new laws with regard to DNA. It proposes removing current strict requirements for collecting a sample, force-able collection if
necessary and increased penalties for obstructing an officer from doing so.

Currently your DNA may only be taken in extreme circumstances and is
termed an "intimate" part of your body.

pete

Sleepy wrote:

Quote:
Gardai being able to extend detention time without offically charging you

This would actually reduce crime rates in this country considering the number of crimes that are comitted by thugs awaiting trial. hardly a bad thing really...

By that reasoning, if we just locked everyone up there'd be no crime at all.

flogen

just as an aside, Jaywalking is a crime... kinda. Basically it's a crime for a pedestrian to disobey the rules of the road (eg lights) and to create a dangerous situation or accident. Jaywalking could be seen as doing this. You can get up to 3 months in jail for a repeat offence (I think it's if you're caught 3 times in one month). The law, however says that you may get up to a €25 fine for a first offence, and you may get jailed after a third, but there is no minimum compulsary fine and it has never been enforced... ever.

flogen

pete

http://www.rte.ie/news/2004/0708/primetime/primetime56_1.smil

Captain Trips

Sleepy wrote:

You want to prevent the Guards from doing their jobs in a country with crime as bad as it is in this country?

This bill does not increase the efficiency of reducing crime, it simply allows more avenues of conviction against the population and a broader definition of what and is not a crime, at the discretion of a Garda. This obviously lacks the essential oversight of liberty which is that the prosecutor cannot be the judge,; AFAIK we are not part of China or the US just yet.

I refer you to: http://www.gov.ie/crimecouncil/documents/Crime%20Report.pdf

You seem to be the type of person to go for the "People know that crime is going so we need new laws" and "People say this" and so on. Read through the official report above before going with "Crime as bad as it is" type of comments .

Summary facts (read the report for the full list) of interest:
1. We have the 2nd lowest rate of recorded crime in europe, after Spain
2. We have low overall rates of homicide, and non-lethal violent crimes against people has experienced a sharp drop since the 1980s while having risen steadily since the 1950s
3. The majority of crime is against property and not people.

To my knowledge, jay-walking isn't actually a crime in this country. Even if it were to be used against as innocuous a crime as littering would this really be a bad thing? We might lose our reputation as one of Europe's dirtiest countries.

Yes it is as stated above you are creating a potentially hazardous road situation. You can also only safely cross on the green man.

Regarding the litter: where is this reputation? where is the data to suggest that we are "one of Europe's dirtiest countries"? Yes, there's plenty of talk and legislation but save for Temple Bar on a weekend - where are the facts? Or this just again similar to how bad a crime problem we have when in fact it's not true.

So, you mean the drug dealers can be prosecuted? What kind of democracy to we live in at all? If you've nothing to hide, a search warrant can do you no harm.

They can and are under current legislation. However unsavoury to you as it seems, the drug dealers should still be entitled to proper procedure and authority like us all - so that presumption of guilt on behalf of a street/beat garda doesn't influence that's garda's judicial powers (which is what he gets with this Bill).

This would actually reduce crime rates in this country considering the number of crimes that are comitted by thugs awaiting trial. hardly a bad thing really...

Crime is already going down significantly. Stop just making **** up like "it would actually reduce crime rates in this country" - it's already happening without the need for national IDs and expanded police powers (pick whichever one you like for the current Bill 2004, and add the other one say in 2008 or so).

dahamsta

Chaos-Engine wrote:

In certain cases this will effectively make the Gardai the prosecutor, judge and jury.

Garda Íoseph Dredd

dabhal

I think the real problem here is that people don't trust the Garda with such power.
Maybe if there was an independent source of recall for the Garda more people would be more comfortable with it.
I have seen Garda on the streets in Dublin acting like power mad dictators. You can't answer back or curse at a garda because they can simply arrest you, charge you with breach of the peace and you have no comeback.
You can make a complaint which will be ignored and then if you have the time and the money you can take them to court where they know the judge.

If these powers where used in a responsible manner I think they could do a lot of good and help with convictions.
Unfortunately I don't believe that the Current Garda on the beat have the maturity to handle them.


Plus as a sidebar on this, it’s a simple fact that the prison service needs to be overhauled and population capacity increased so even if these powers worked there are not enough prison places for the convictions.

Dabhal

bonkey

dabhal wrote:

Maybe if there was an independent source of recall for the Garda more people would be more comfortable with it.

You mean...like if it was left alone?

If these powers where used in a responsible manner I think they could do a lot of good and help with convictions.

And if people behaved in a respectable manner, we wouldn't need these laws at all....

jc

dabhal

bonkey wrote:

You mean...like if it was left alone?

bonkey wrote:

No I mean an independent complaints board with authority over the Garda that the public can go to who could remove a Garda etc

And if people behaved in a respectable manner, we wouldn't need these laws at all....

Bit of an obvious statement, if people always behaved we would not need the Garda at all

jc

Dabahl

AngelofFire

The problem with on the spot fines is that, a Garda can issue a fine to someone if they suspect them of being in breach of the law, and the person will have to pay regardless of whether they are guilty or not. This allows the Gardai to act as both judge and Jury, this infringes on article 34 of bunreacht na hEireann which states that Justice shall be administered in courts.

Moriarty

They can always contest it in the courts. Odds are if they have half a case they'll win.

Gurgle

AngelofFire wrote:

The problem with on the spot fines is that, a Garda can issue a fine to someone if they suspect them of being in breach of the law.

Surely the Garda has to witness the law breaking, not just suspect it happened.

In practice, the vast majority of Gardai are decent and reasonable people. It wouldn't do them or their career any good if they kept trying to fine people for things they didn't do and getting thrown out of court.

I don't really see the problem to be honest.

mycroft

Gurgle wrote:

Surely the Garda has to witness the law breaking, not just suspect it happened.

In practice, the vast majority of Gardai are decent and reasonable people. It wouldn't do them or their career any good if they kept trying to fine people for things they didn't do and getting thrown out of court.

I don't really see the problem to be honest.

Great, the majority of us are decent and reasonable people, why have any laws at all.....

I've lost count of the number of cases I've heard of section 6 and 4 of the criminal justice bill being used by Gardaí to arrest people for "giving blatant cheek" and if the person goes and makes a complaint later they find "assaulting a Gardaí" tacted onto the charge sheet when they go to court over the first charge.......

Alun

Moriarty wrote:

They can always contest it in the courts. Odds are if they have half a case they'll win.

Hmmm, guilty until proven innocent then ?

mycroft

Moriarty wrote:

They can always contest it in the courts. Odds are if they have half a case they'll win.

New to the legal system are you. Your word againist a Gardai in court, you lose.

Gurgle

mycroft wrote:

Knew to the legal system are you. Your word againist a Gardai in court, you lose.

The Garda would have to provide specifics of what you did and said to justify the fine. Your word against a Garda in court, without any evidence or witnesses, it gets thrown out.

Your word against two Gardai in court, you lose.

mycroft

Gurgle wrote:

The Garda would have to provide specifics of what you did and said to justify the fine. Your word against a Garda in court, without any evidence or witnesses, it gets thrown out.

Your word against two Gardai in court, you lose.

Nope sorry, I've fairly extensive court experience in cases againist alledged gardai misconduct and judges and jurys give more credence to Gardai testimony than personal testimony.

Furthermore you have to go through the hassle of court, the expense and grief without any assurance of justice and the likelyhood if you contest the fine you'll lose.

oscarBravo

dabhal wrote:

Maybe if there was an independent source of recall for the Garda more people would be more comfortable with it.

What do you mean by "an independent source of recall"?

dabhal wrote:

I have seen Garda on the streets in Dublin acting like power mad dictators.

In what way? Rounding up their political enemies into concentration camps? Or (the bloody nerve) telling people what to do?

There seems to be a perception that Gardaí are just people who wear funny clothes, to be ignored if their instructions don't suit you. On the contrary: they are a police force, vested with a certain level of authority by the State. When you challenge a Garda, you're challenging (in a small way) the authority of the State.

dabhal wrote:

You can't answer back or curse at a garda because they can simply arrest you, charge you with breach of the peace and you have no comeback.

What on earth makes you think it's OK to swear at a police officer?

dabhal wrote:

Unfortunately I don't believe that the Current Garda on the beat have the maturity to handle them.

Maybe when people have the maturity to handle being policed, the police will be less of a problem.

Gurgle

oscarBravo wrote:

What on earth makes you think it's OK to swear at a police officer?

lol
Have done so when extremely drunk.
A garda wanted to know why I was pissing against a wall at 4am. The words 'fcuk off' were out before I managed to identify the uniform. I rapidly sobered up enough to apologise. Apology accepted and I was informed of the location of the nearest porta-loo.

mycroft

Gurgle wrote:

lol
Have done so when extremely drunk.
A garda wanted to know why I was pissing against a wall at 4am. The words 'fcuk off' were out before I managed to identify the uniform. I rapidly sobered up enough to apologise. Apology accepted and I was informed of the location of the nearest porta-loo.

You're bloody lucky thats a chargble offence on both counts.

Gurgle

mycroft wrote:

You're bloody lucky thats a chargble offence on both counts.

I know, hence the 'most gardai are reasonable people' comment.
There were a few other occasions when I got a talking to for drunken boisterousness but the gardai involved never went over the top.

mycroft

Gurgle wrote:

I know, hence the 'most gardai are reasonable people' comment.
There were a few other occasions when I got a talking to for drunken boisterousness but the gardai involved never went over the top.

And ancedotaly a mate was charged for a similiar offence.

And again ancedotaly, I know several Gardaí on several levels of the force and have found them to be honest reasonable helpful decent human beings.

But, the Baron family have an entirely different experience, as does everyone involved in the Mahon tribunal. There is a reason why gardaí powers are limited , because power can be abused, and has been abused, and it's notoriously difficult to convict a Gardaí for abusing his power or commiting a crime.

Gurgle

mycroft wrote:

But, the Baron family have an entirely different experience, as does everyone involved in the Mahon tribunal. There is a reason why gardaí powers are limited , because power can be abused, and has been abused, and it's notoriously difficult to convict a Gardaí for abusing his power or commiting a crime.

Yes, as in every barrel there are bad apples.

IMO its a better idea to make the Gardai more accountable for the use/abuse of their power than to compromise that power.

mycroft

Gurgle wrote:

Yes, as in every barrel there are bad apples.

IMO its a better idea to make the Gardai more accountable for the use/abuse of their power than to compromise that power.

Well and my point is the system of accountably isn't working now, lets put in a system before we give them more power.

ionapaul

Yes, if this system of accountability included sizeable compensation to be paid to those falsely fined, searched, etc...I think they would be on to something. Make the State pay if it f**ks up via an over-zealous Guard and hopefully the number of f**k ups drops. There would always be some f**k ups, at the end of the day.

mycroft

ionapaul wrote:

Yes, if this system of accountability included sizeable compensation to be paid to those falsely fined, searched, etc...I think they would be on to something. Make the State pay if it f**ks up via an over-zealous Guard and hopefully the number of f**k ups drops. There would always be some f**k ups, at the end of the day.

You mean you and I pay?

The phrase f*ck that, springs to mind!!!!

I'd rather the gardai are disciplined, sanctioned or fined for improper use of their powers.

Victor

Sleepy wrote:

You want to prevent the Guards from doing their jobs in a country with crime as bad as it is in this country?

And such people can be dealt with by remanding them in custody instead of allowing bail (we had a referendum on this).

Sleepy wrote:

To my knowledge, jay-walking isn't actually a crime in this country.

It is.

Johnnymcg wrote:

from what I know basically at the moment in order to obtain a search warrant the gardai have to apply to local judges, this law removes that hands this safeguard and gives this power to local superintendents at their discretion, - a very worrying development

There is of course the Judge Curtin case.

Regarding the litter: where is this reputation? where is the data to suggest that we are "one of Europe's dirtiest countries"?

The Business Against Litter (?) survey published last week?

dabhal wrote:

Plus as a sidebar on this, it’s a simple fact that the prison service needs to be overhauled and population capacity increased so even if these powers worked there are not enough prison places for the convictions.

Meanwhile McDowell wants to knock down prisons....

AngelofFire wrote:

The problem with on the spot fines is that, a Garda can issue a fine to someone if they suspect them of being in breach of the law,

Surely if people are paying fines, it means freeing up prison space for more serious crimes? Proportionality of offence and all that?

and the person will have to pay regardless of whether they are guilty or not.

Can you quote the clause where it says this?

AngelofFire wrote:

This allows the Gardai to act as both judge and Jury, this infringes on article 34 of bunreacht na hEireann which states that Justice shall be administered in courts.

Then this act will be struck down as unconstitutional and you can go on your merry way.

Captain Trips wrote:

Summary facts (read the report for the full list) of interest: 1. We have the 2nd lowest rate of recorded crime in europe, after Spain

Is the operative word here "recorded"?

Gurgle

Victor wrote:

Sleepy wrote:

To my knowledge, jay-walking isn't actually a crime in this country.

It is.

Any reason to think they're going to start handing out fines for 'crimes' that have been ignored for the last 50 years ?

If I was caught doing something I shouldn't be doing, I would rather be fined on the spot than dragged through the court. The courts might even be freed up a bit to deal with real criminals properly.

Victor

Gurgle wrote:

Any reason to think they're going to start handing out fines for 'crimes' that have been ignored for the last 50 years ?

Because ticketing is a much better form of enforcement, because (a) it eases administration (b) strengths the cause-effect relationship of crime-punishment.

Boggle

Anyone who thinks giving the gardai are living in fairyland... a MAGICAL land with HONEST gardai who dont sit in pubs drinking themselves stupid drinking themselves stupid, bitchin about drink drivers only to drive home themselves....(sure if we get stopped we just flash the badge through the window)

...and gardai who dont go around raiding premises for after hours drinking while themselves having a lock-in at Johny fox's until 5. (tonight apparently! - some garda units Xmas do!)

They abuse their position as they are - imagine what would happen if they had the power to finish the job. (you need transparability and proof to convict someone of anything as there is no such thing as a minor crime)

dabhal

oscarBravo wrote:

What do you mean by "an independent source of recall"?

refer to my other post explaining this

[/QUOTE]
In what way? Rounding up their political enemies into concentration camps? Or (the bloody nerve) telling people what to do?
[/QUOTE]
No, abusing innocent people because they know there is nothing they can do about it. Calling them names asking stupid questions like "do you want to get arrested" Heard that one on a few occasions and it was not to a bunch of yobbos either just people who dared have a bit of fun within earshot of a garda.

[/QUOTE]
There seems to be a perception that Gardaí are just people who wear funny clothes, to be ignored if their instructions don't suit you. On the contrary: they are a police force, vested with a certain level of authority by the State. When you challenge a Garda, you're challenging (in a small way) the authority of the State.
[/QUOTE]
God forbid if the state is out of order I say something........sorry Stalin

[/QUOTE]
What on earth makes you think it's OK to swear at a police officer? Maybe when people have the maturity to handle being policed, the police will be less of a problem.[/QUOTE]
I live in the real world, if someone gets my back up I may well swear at them, I'm only human, I would swear at a friend aswell, it should not be used as an excuse to arrest someone.

[/QUOTE]
Maybe when people have the maturity to handle being policed, the police will be less of a problem.
[/QUOTE]
Maybe we should all be beaten for having opinions until we are :eek:

Dabhal

oscarBravo

dabhal wrote:

refer to my other post explaining this

Right. If you were a little more careful with your quote tags, it would be easier to understand your points.

dabhal wrote:

No, abusing innocent people because they know there is nothing they can do about it. Calling them names asking stupid questions like "do you want to get arrested" Heard that one on a few occasions and it was not to a bunch of yobbos either just people who dared have a bit of fun within earshot of a garda.

That's a rhetorical question, not a stupid question.

The "having a bit of fun" fuzziness is where the lines begin to be drawn. Some people's idea of fun is watching TV; others' is burning out cars. I don't know where in the continuum yours falls, but in my experience a garda tends not to interfere with "fun" unless there's a law being broken, or in danger of being broken.

dabhal wrote:

God forbid if the state is out of order I say something........sorry Stalin

I have no idea what you mean by this. If you disagree with the law, vote for someone who'll change it.

dabhal wrote:

I live in the real world, if someone gets my back up I may well swear at them, I'm only human, I would swear at a friend aswell, it should not be used as an excuse to arrest someone.

You'll find it's easier to get on with everyone - friends and gardaí alike - when you learn to exercise some self-control. There are situations where it's inappropriate to swear at people, no matter what you're feeling at the time.

dabhal wrote:

Maybe we should all be beaten for having opinions until we are

Been arrested for having an opinion, have you?

dabhal

Well done oscarbavo, now go put a gold star on your chart.
In my best comicbook Guy voice
"worst replies ever"

oscarBravo

I quake before your superior debating skillz. You've shown all my hollow rhetoric for what it is: a pale shadow of your infinite wisdom. I shall retire herewith from boards.ie, knowing that I can never win an argument with you around.

mycroft

dabhal wrote:

Well done oscarbavo, now go put a gold star on your chart.
In my best comicbook Guy voice
"worst replies ever"

And i in mine, 'worst sarcasm ever"

You lost I'd recommend you return those grapes to the shop they seem a little sour.