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Firebird Popular 90 - Thermostat doesn't seem to be working

2

Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 796 ✭✭✭Cuttlefish


    Apologies with the new wiring the RCD is not tripping anymore so the fault was with the wiring under the footpath, house built in 1974 so doubt if it was protected in any way and maybe deteriorated over time



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 796 ✭✭✭Cuttlefish


    Wrong choice of words - I meant the boiler thermostat if working correctly would cut in and cut out.

    With a Boiler thermostat and the Room thermostat - both are in series so to speak, right? So now I no longer have a Room thermostat so the only temperature control in my boiler circuitry should be the Boiler thermostat.

    Use my APT time switch to turn on/ off the heating.

    Yes Boiler thermostat is over 30 years old I'd guess.

    Boiler thermostat is wired to a three pin plug and along with the pump mains are plugged into a new double socket that is fed by the new wiring from the circuit board.

    You reckon the plastic dial may be broken and not rotating the fitting



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,834 ✭✭✭John.G


    The wiring with the 3 pin plug should be from the left, the wiring coming out of the right hand side of the box should go to the burner. This hi limit stat is set to 110C (normal for most I think), its possible though that if yours is set to the same that the boiler temperature actually isn't reaching 110C, thus no trip, 110C equals to a pressure head of 4.2M so just abut borderline on whether the water should be hot at the cold feed coming from that F&E cistern, what you can do, as a temporary hi limit safety check is, (with power off) turn the temperature setting knob anticlockwise to its minimum setting slacken off the cover securing screws (3) remove the cover, slacken the hi limit stat locking screw and set the hi limit to say 90 for a start, DO NOT turn the centre adjustment slotted plastic screw as that is probebly the differential setting for resetting, (reset button must still be pressed if hi limit stat does operate), if it does operate then you can always reset to 105/110C knowing that, at least the hi limit stat is working, when refitting the cover turn the temp adjustment knob back to minimum first.

    image.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 796 ✭✭✭Cuttlefish


    @John.g based on your reply is this wired incorrectly ?


    The wiring with the 3 pin plug should be from the left, the wiring coming out of the right hand side of the box should go to the burner



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,644 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wearb


    Yes. It will work either way though.

    It's the way that each stat under the cover is wired is what counts. If nobody's been at it and it used to work correctly then most likely the stat...both of them faulty.

    Do you have a way to check polarity on the boiler sockets?



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,834 ✭✭✭John.G


    Is not the wire coming out of the right hand side of your box not going to the burner?? Therefore the wire in the left hand side of the box must be coming from your 3 pin plug??



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 796 ✭✭✭Cuttlefish


    Yes the wire to the right is going down to the Rielo burner and the other on the left hand side going to a 3 pin plug



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 87 ✭✭declan b




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,834 ✭✭✭John.G


    This is the Boiler Stat from the scrapped Firebird. LH Wire, Supply. RH Wire to Burner, if that one was wired correctly, why would swapping the wiring around not work?

    image.png


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭jimf




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  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,644 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wearb




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭jimf




  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,644 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wearb


    Every day is a learning day. I thought that being linked back down the line was enough.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,834 ✭✭✭John.G


    Yes, well spotted, wonder is the OPs one similar or even my own one which is in a heat pack so all prewired.....100000 Firebirds to be replaced FOC. Will check mine later.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭jimf


    ask them to replace yours with a vortex john 😂



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,834 ✭✭✭John.G


    Will do Jim, in 2035, maybe.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,834 ✭✭✭John.G


    I didn't open my stat box as its a bit tight up against the side of the heat pac but I have both the supply to the stats and the circ pump on two plugs, I removed the earth wire from the burner body and got practically 0 ohms between it and the burner plug earth pin and 12 ohms beween the burner body and the earth pin with earth wire removed and the same 0 ohms between the burner body & earth pin with the earth wire restored, so important that the those two stats earths are linked.



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,644 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wearb


    I don't see the importance of them being linked across from each other if they are both supplied with an earth wire.

    I know it gives belt and braces.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,834 ✭✭✭John.G


    The burner isn't earthed to anything if that link is missing, it is earthed to the control stat body but that's inside in a plastic box.



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,644 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wearb


    Thanks. Now I understand what's going on regarding the ground. I was trying to get my head around how this prevented the op stat not working. 🫣



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 796 ✭✭✭Cuttlefish


    OK this is how my thermostat is wired

    So can anyone confirm if this is wired correctly

    IMG_4011.jpg

    IMG_4011.jpg


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 796 ✭✭✭Cuttlefish


    Also noticed the pre-set temp value set above 110 degrees, not by me mind you. This is the first time I have ever removed to cover



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,644 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wearb


    There's nothing in that wiring to stop the thermostat operating normally. However neither part of the dual stat is earthed. That should be rectified, but you probably need to change the stat at this stage. You could use a multimeter to check them first. Also check the capillaries for damage.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,834 ✭✭✭John.G


    THe earth wire is probably going directly to the burner so at least that is earthed but certainly not earth wired correctly, the setting seems to be exactly at 110C like the one I posted, wiring, as stated above, looks fine, as I said previously, because you may not have reached 110C or its tolerance of 113C then suggest slackening the locking screw just above the trip reset and adjust the setting to 90C but do not touch the plastic centre screw, put it back in and see does the boiler now trip, at least you then know the hi limit stat is working.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 239 ✭✭Iderown


    Thank you Cuttlefish for starting this discussion. I hope that you have got your heating arrangements sorted - good idea to get this done before winter. I have read all the contributions with interest.

    The physical layout here is similar. Was done maybe 18 years ago with oil boiler in garage with plumbing and wiring tracked underground to house. Rain water tends to pool over part of the sand/cement filled-in track and it does not look sound. I suspect that a live-earth current leak is not far off. Herself here would be unhappy if central heating was not available for even one day.

    My work background is electrical engineering (now happily retired) and I'm planning an overhead replacement of the wiring to the boiler in the garage. The boiler has been replaced (12 months ago) with a Grant Vortex condensing oil boiler. It is working well and reliably for both radiator and hot water cylinder zones. It is a closed pressurised system.

    I had the opportunity today to photograph the thermostat supplied with the Grant boiler and the internal connections that I made in it. All earths are wired together - I do not rely on the contact between the thermostat capillaries/phialls and boiler body to make good earth contact for burner earth. The data leaflet for the thermostats supplied with the boiler is confusing - it does not show earthing connections! Ask me for a scan of it if you want to see it.

    Photo of boiler thermostat/safety cut-out box. It came with a decent functional wiring diagram on its side panel. But again with no earthing recommendations:

    IMIT Thermostat.jpg

    The internal wiring:

    IMIT Thermostat wiring.jpg

    I will be doing the re-wiring between house and boiler at leisure. Will start a new topic about that in due course.



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,644 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wearb


    How did you manage the permanent live required by the vortex? It's unlikely the old one had it.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭jimf




  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,834 ✭✭✭John.G


    Does the Heat Pac model only require a switched live as well?



  • Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators Posts: 6,644 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wearb


    Thanks Jim. I never installed one of those. All outside replacments around here. Even on a boilerhouse one, I'd be inclined to fit one even if it didn't come with it.



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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,030 ✭✭✭jimf


    agree 100% no harm to have a little bit of extra protection



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