100,000 circulation pumps being recalled......

Lenar3556

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123884625#Comment_123884625

I am not aware of any evidence which pointed to a significant risk of fire existing in a hot press or airing cupboard, nor any data which suggested that this was a common cause of outbreak of fire in ireland or the UK.

An immersion heater would probably represent the main risk, (loose connections) and most manufacturers recommend that the top is not covered.

It does already have an integral thermal trip and there would be further engineering solutions which could be deployed if there was evidence to suggest it was necessary.

John.G

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123884789#Comment_123884789

Its surprising there isn't/wasn't a retaining clip on one side of the plug like my Wilo Yonos Pico which will ensure that the plug is inserted properly, of course it could still be wired up incorrectly, my plug came unattached to the pump, presumably the Tucson is the same, so, in "50%" of the cases the plug could have been inserted "incorrectly", pump won't start so plug just reversed and away we go, I wonder how many would see this as a danger though?.

My friend has a Tucson, installed as a replacement on his 35 year old Firebird around two years ago and will send me on the plug arrangement, the boiler + pump is being replaced on friday with a new one.

The Continental Op

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123885259#Comment_123885259

But if you put your hand on the pump to correct the error and haven't isolated the circuit first you have just made another possibly much more terminal mistake.

John.G

The plot thickens, my friends Tucson installed two years ago cannot have the plug installed incorrectly, it's much like mine, and he didn't buy it in Screwfix, will post photo later.

The Continental Op

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123885437#Comment_123885437

But whats the serial number? https://tucsonpumps.com/serial-number-checking-tool/

PixelCrafter

It seems like it's just a very badly designed plug/socket system. There's nothing weird, old, unusual or different about Irish electrical supply or wiring (as was suggested further up the thread) that would prompt this recall only in Ireland. It seems they're an Irish based supplier, so most of the devices were sold in Ireland (both jurisdictions). I'm not sure why the UK hasn't announced a similar recall if some were sold in NI and in GB too.

The problem as I understand it is that the plug can be reversed, but that it is not symmetrical, and carries the earth on the opposite side to the live, so when you swap it and jam the plug in, the body of the pump is connected to live.

It does not appear that if the electrical supply to the pump were accidentally reversed (swapping live and natural) on the fixed wiring that it would cause any problems, only if the actual removable connector supplied with the pump is physically reversed itself, which bizarrely swaps the Live and Earth!

While this is not relevant in this case - as it's not an issue with polarity, but with a badly designed connector. However, just to explain: European appliances are supposed to be polarity agnostic. Ireland's unusual in having a fully polarised plug/socket system, most of Europe uses 'Schuko' type plugs for connecting of a lot of things (often including heating pumps) and those plugs are reversible, so polarity isn't assured. The result of that is appliances are designed around the idea that polarity should not matter, and that includes all of them sold here. It matters a lot for fused plugs, because the fuse needs to land on the live side of the circuit, but not the appliance itself.

There are plenty of examples of appliances connectors that reverse - the simple 'figure of 8' connector you find on lots of devices like audio/video equipment etc goes in either way.

Normally connectors are designed so that whatever happens, you cannot mistake the earth for any other conductor.

In terms of the risks, if the pump is connected via an RCD, which would be the case in modern installations (post 1980s) but might not be the case in older houses if they're still using old wiring, then the power will trip if more than 30mA flows to ground. So if there's a short to the pipework the RCD will trip, if someone touches it they might feel a slight shock, but assuming the RCD operates it's not going to do them any harm.

If there's no RCD present, and the pump connects the live to the pipework you'll get a trip of the MCB or the supply fuse will pop very quickly on the fuse board.

Where there's a serious danger is if the pump's electrically isolated - for example, if there's PEX / plastic pipes used to connect it, or the copper pipe it's sitting on is not connected to anything earthing it e.g. poor bonding etc. You could also have a situation where PTFE tape used to seal the end of the pump might be isolating it from bonded plumbing. That's the scenario where someone might touch the pump and receive a very bad shock, particularly if they were say touching earthed plumbing with their other hand.

There's also a slight risk of it causing plumbing to go live if there's any kind of issue bonding and someone manages to find themselves as the connection between the live plumbing and earth.

PixelCrafter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123883780#Comment_123883780

Other than Ireland and the UK, 'airing cupboards' and 'hot presses' are basically unheard tbh. They're a bit of an idiosyncratic feature of Irish and British plumbing tbh. In most countries the hot water heater is a highly insulated large appliance-like sealed up thing - often sits in a cupboard in the bathroom, in the garage, in a basement or somewhere like that. It's not used to air clothes and doesn't really leak much heat. You're seeing more installations in Ireland that are similar to that nowadays too, particularly with the advent of solar heating and so on.

Kaisr Sose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123884817#Comment_123884817

Thanks ..that's is what I was getting at....house fires generally or frequently do not start in the hot press, hence the reason homes were historically sold with a shelved hot press. Maybe modern homes less so, with highly insulated tanks leaking very little heat.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123884625#Comment_123884625

This has forced the wiring regulations to change. No timers, immersion switches etc in hot press anymore. It's worth pointing out the the immersion itself is still in the hot press and still a major fire hazard. No one should ever put towels, clothes, bedding etc directly on top of the cylinder

Wearb

I knew that I'd fitted one of these for a neighbour about 9 years ago. I took a pic of the box at the time. It took me a while to find the job folder as there are different people in the house for some time now.

He wasn't a customer as he did all his own work. However when he went to change the pump the valves leaked and he wouldn't go so far as to drain down himself.

Here's the thing, this is a 2015 pump and supposedly exempt from this fault, but the Tucson checker flags it.

I don't have enough information to raise the issue on their report form, so I've stuck a letter in the letterbox of the house. It's now a rental property and I've no idea who bought it. I'll continue to make enquiries.

Same old... "no good deed goes unpunished " (I don't often do wet work and did this as a favour)

One consolation is that I spotted a new outside boiler when dropping off the letter. Hopefully pump gone with the old one.

PixelCrafter

They're a pretty crude contraption by any standards. Always think they look like something from the 1920s/30s that somehow never got updated - basically just a big copper tank with an element jammed in through a hole. Very Wallace and Grommet cobbled together engineering vibe.

dastardly00

What kind of heating systems are these Tucson circulating pumps used in... gas, oil, heat pumps?

Would they be used in air-to-water heat pumps? And specifically at the cylinder or the outdoor unit?

John.G

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123885465#Comment_123885465

Awaiting Serial Number, the pump was bought and installed on the 11/10/2022.

Tucson Pump Plug 1.jpeg

Tucson Pump Plug 2.jpeg

Wearb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123886024#Comment_123886024

Could be used on all the above.

Wearb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123886044#Comment_123886044

With that locking tab, it's possible rather than very likely to reverse the plug. But that possibility is cause fir concern, especially since they didn't have the sense to put the earth in the center.

John.G

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123886116#Comment_123886116

How can it be reversed (other than wired incorrectly) if, like mine, the locking tab is on one side only?.

Escapees

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123886150#Comment_123886150

Because the locking tab is not really keyed and therefore the plug can actually be connected the opposite way round (possibly with a bit of force involved), but obviously cannot latch in such a position. Relies therefore on someone having the cop on to note the mating latching feature when connecting, but... it is possible and probably not unheard of for the latch tab feature to break off when disconnecting the plug, which would mean that there is then no obvious indication of the correct orientation when connecting.

As others have said, really bad design and design review processes.

Wearb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123886150#Comment_123886150

As Escapees described.

Cerco

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123884762#Comment_123884762

I think the schematic. if detailed enough, will show that the pump body is electrically isolated from the pipework. IMHO the earth connection on the connector is to provide an earth to the isolated pump housing. Hence no fuse blowing or RCD/RCBO trips when connector reversed. Of course I am open to correction as I have not seen the pump in question but I think it is the only explanation from what I have read.

Wearb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123886277#Comment_123886277

I don't agree. Even taking into account the fibre/rubber sealing washers, the valve threads will make the connection to the rest of the pipework, copper in lots of cases.

BTW the official explanation from Tucson leaves out a lot of detail. Eg. They don't say that the pump will not run if plug is connected incorrectly. They almost give the impression that it will, by sort of saying leave well enough alone until the tech sorts it.

PixelCrafter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123886024#Comment_123886024

Anything with circulating water and radiators or underfloor heating : gas, oil, solid fuel, wood pellets, heat pumps … .

John.G

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123886116#Comment_123886116

Is it normal safe practice to put the earth in the centre (which makes sense), The Wilo's isn't so can the same reverse installation be done here?.

Photo, attached, of the Tucson key, it would seem that a bit of force would be required to get a reversed plug on over that sturdy looking key if its a neat fit, still havn't got that serial number, wonder what the fix is.

Tucson Pump Key.jpeg

Wearb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123886726#Comment_123886726

I'm not sure if it's normal, but I'd consider it safer.

I suppose that an asymmetrical plug is the best option. Some keyed plug arrangements aren't robust enough. That seem to be the case with this pump type.

I don't know what the new design is like. Most of the ones I worked on had a gland on the pump connector box and was wired directly there after passing through the gland.

We all had a go at one yesterday in the suppliers when the story broke.

You can feel a massive difference in plugging it in the right & wrong way. You can fit it incorrectly but you need to jiggle it & then force it in. Fitting it correctly is slides home effortlessly. You will know that you are forcing it into place when you are doing it

This isn't to suggest that it's not dangerous but it's on the market 8 years & no reported deaths (thank God) & no reported injuries.

I think this is why it's taken so long to flag. It's harder to connect it incorrectly rather than correctly.

Again I stress, this doesn't suggest that it can't be dangerous

Wearb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123886771#Comment_123886771

Did you get to see the newer/safer design?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123886873#Comment_123886873

There was no mention of this. The old design was still on sale until the announcement early yesterday morning as far as I know. Trade counter had no prior knowledge.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123886771#Comment_123886771

While a fatality or injury hasn't been publicilly reported one would wonder was there an incident that prompted the HSA to contact the CCPC in the first instance?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123886919#Comment_123886919

Probably. But they have been installed for 8 years now. Not to suggest that they can't be dangerous or indeed fatal but obviously they went 8 years without ringing alarm bells.

It's not impossible to plug it in upside down but an installer will notice.

Had a beer today with one such installer. Obviously he didn't know any danger but thinking back, the only way he said he wouldn't have noticed is if the pump was up and out of reach or vision. This has happened to him. Arm reaching into a black hole. He could see how a mistake could be made

PixelCrafter

If it shows one thing to me is that companies should ALWAYS use an IEC connector that’s a proven standard, not reinvent the wheel.

John.G

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123886322#Comment_123886322

Yes, they don't, even though it would seem most unlikely that it would run, if it does/did then that would probably explain why someone who installed it reversed wouldn't even realize it, but probably erring on the side of caution anyway.

"• An installed pump can remain in operation, but you must not make any physical contact with the pump electrical coupling. Consult Tucson Pumps immediately to schedule an appointment for replacement of the pump motor by a Tucson engineer at your property."