100,000 circulation pumps being recalled......

The Continental Op

I've just sketched this out and does anyone think I'm right in saying it would probably run (and obviously be a shock hazard) with the Earth and Live swapped? Provided of course any of the normal electrical safety's didn't work, fuses trips etc.

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123883260#Comment_123883260

It will likely run fine with L and E in-circuit; don't forget that N and E are bonded on the far side of the meter, so the current return path is complete.

A major risk to life by such a silly design flaw. A tiny difference in the plastic molding would only allow it to be connected safely.

This is a major design flaw. What other safety bodies passed it? Wouldn't it have to have a CE stamp on it?

I trust most installers to get this right though I do wonder how none seems to have the electrical knowledge to know it's a bad design. I do believe this is a flaw of our system where plumbers aren't trained in basic electrical things. In the UK a plumber has enough training to install an electric shower and cert it. Here we try to protect the electric trade but basic safety suffers.

The real safety issue here is that DIY warriors can easily disconnect this & put it back in the wrong way without ever knowing that they could kill someone

Mind boggling

Wearb

I don't see how it would run, if the live and ground/cpc/earth were reversed. What's the path through the windings?

Can you show us your sketch?

The Continental Op

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123883326#Comment_123883326

My assumption is that Neutral and Earth are at the same potential, ESB bonding. So connecting the mains Live to the Earth on the pump is also connecting it to the Neutral via the windings of the motor. The return path being the Live connection on the windings being connected to Earth and Neutral. I'm also assuming plastic pipe so the pump is isolated from earth.

Hence my question seems feasible but is it? I'd assume something would trip or blow but possibly not?

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123883323#Comment_123883323

From looking at it on the news it looks as though there is no mechanical blocker to prevent the connector to be inserted the wrong way (as opposed to the wiring connected incorrectly). Would hardly call someone a DIY warrior for removing/reinserting what looks like a normal connector to the pump.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123883667#Comment_123883667

The country is full of DIY warriors who insist they are competent. The reality is that the vast majority of them have no more than YouTube knowledge. I would trust most installers to connect the pump correctly. With DIY warriors it will be 50/50 because they don't have the knowledge they think they have & definitely aren't competent.

My original point is that a tiny alteration to the design of the pump would make allowance for the DIY warriors. In other words they could have made it foolproof to stop the fools killing themselves.

My recurring point over the last few weeks is that we need to protect DIY warriors from themselves.

I have no doubt in my mind that there are 1000s or 10s of thousands of DIY warriors who didn't know that an extention lead could be lethal in a bathroom.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123883695#Comment_123883695

This particular issue is not a DIY warrior problem - this is purely a design problem. There is one of these pumps installed in the bottom of the hotpress of my mothers home. She is always pulling out/pushing in duvets/towels/clothes other stuff and could easily knock off the connector and quickly try to reconnect it back to the way she thought it was. It's sh!t design plain and simple.

Lenar3556

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123883545#Comment_123883545

No, when the plug is reversed the live conductor is connected to the pump body and to the PCB’s capacitive discharge circuit (most of these were smart pumps). So in effect the live was connected to nothing of relevance in terms of running the motor.

The neutral ended up being correctly connected, and the earth was connected to the pumps live terminal. So it just sat there doing nothing, but with a live casing.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123883729#Comment_123883729

I already stated that it's a terrible design fault.

Your mum falls under the DIY warrior tag, in this case. You are not supposed to keep clothes or bedding in the hot press. Due to the fire risk. Most immersion fires are caused by clothes on top causing them to overheat and go on fire

Irish people can be so dim that they had to change the wiring regulations. In new homes you won't find immersion switchs, timers etc inside the hot press. This is because Irish people continue to stuff the hot press with clothes and bedding.

Regardless of the the reason for the recall I strongly recommend that you educate your mother on the fire risks of keeping clothes in the hot press.

The "airing cuberd" nonsense is an Irish & UK thing & accounts for several house fires per year

blackbox

Not supposed to keep clothes on the hot press?

What next?

In other countries it's known as an airing cupboard.

The Continental Op

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123883747#Comment_123883747

Thanks hope you will excuse what seems like stupidity but I was trying to tease out the full details of the issue. Think we are getting there ;-)

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123883758#Comment_123883758

Pump was installed in there last year on recommendation by the plumber and wired by registered electrician.

Just last month, I discovered an electrician we hired 5-6 years ago bypassed the fusebox in the shed as a solution to a lightbulb that was repeatedly tripping rcd.

My point being, not all Diyers are f*ckwits and not all professionals are competent.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123883811#Comment_123883811

There are electricians and there are REC electricians. Any self employed electrician in a domestic setting will be REC. They must be REC to even examine the fusebox. Non REC electricians in a domestic setting will be someone doing a nixer (they may be commercial electricians without the knowledge of domestic regulations) or simply a Handyman doing electrical work. These can be as bad or worse than the DIY warriors

You will always know a REC because they will issue you with certs for work done.

It's up to the homeowner to ensure that they engage the correct & qualified tradesmen. This is why we have REC & the certificate system.

I'd bet my savings that you didn't engage a REC & received a cert for the work carried out. Looking for the cheapest quote isn't the best option for electric safety. The safest option is to use a REC. With a cert an electrician has to be able to stand over their work. If done wrong they have to redo it or pay another REC to bring it up to standard.

You won't get this with cash in hand jobs of course

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123883852#Comment_123883852

So who is to blame for this issue?

The designers of the pumps?

The manufacturers of the pumps?

The standards guys who let this pump through the net or certified it (at product level)?

The REC electricians who wired up tens of thousands of this and raised no issues?

The DIY'er who maybe didn't see an issue with this setup as they aren't doing tens of these in the year?

Lenar3556

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123883695#Comment_123883695

This isn’t a question as to the competency of the installer, (be they professional or amateur) The CCSP has, in their statuary role, determined that the product is defective, that it is unsafe, and that it should be withdrawn from the market both pre and post sale. The wiring of the plug is concealed once assembled and it is entirely possible for the installer to connect it upside down in error. Your comments around ‘DIY warriors’ , ‘fools’ and ‘protecting people from themselves’ are misconceived.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123883852#Comment_123883852

The heat pump installer was a REC. Can't see if the cowboy who bypassed the shed fusebox is or not. Don't know what he trades as.

Lenar3556

A registered electrical contractor (REC) isn’t necessarily an electrician. It may be a limited company whose directors or owners wouldn’t have the capacity to wire a plug. It simply needs to have one ‘qualified certifier’ engaged (who could also provide this service for other firms). A very small percentage of the work is audited once a year.

It’s a relatively good scheme, but I wouldn’t be holding it out as a guarantee of superior quality work in all cases.

Feisar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123883323#Comment_123883323

DIY warrior here. I know loads about electricity. So much in fact I know to stay away from it!

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123883875#Comment_123883875

I have said repeatedly that this is truly shocking. How this simple mistake passed design is beyond me. A tiny modification at the design stage could have avoided this. I'm sure it has the CE mark & that scares me all the more.

This isn't a DIY product. They were almost all installed by competent tradespeople. The main risk of electrocution comes from DIY warriors working on a system they don't fully understand or by using basic tools like a multi meter. You know. Heat pump isn't defrosting so rather than call a professional, let's unplug things & plug them back in again. This is where the danger lies for the most part. Not knowing that you have plugged it in back to front. Using a phase tested rather than proper calibrated testing equipment. We pay a small fortune each year to calculate our equipment but DIY Dave uses a phase tester

The risk isn't exclusive to the DIY warriors but it is a perfect time to point out that watching a YouTube video doesn't make you competent. I am using this disaster to show idiots that a YouTube video is no substitute for a proper apprenticeship and passing exams proving you know how to do things safely

I pointed out the amount of house fires caused by idiots cramming the hot press with clothing. This is literally a public service announcement. It could save someone's life. Don't bring a 230 volts extension lead into a bathroom. Don't push a bed or couch close to a socket but more importantly something that heats up like a phone charger. At least a dozen house fires from this each year.

This is the perfect place to show how dangerous it can be for homeowners to do DIY work without understanding all the safety issues

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123883891#Comment_123883891

The lack of the cert will tell you that it's not a REC. It's that simple

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123883943#Comment_123883943

👏👏👏You have my total respect.

Sadly a plumber was fatally electrocuted not too long ago due to dangerous work done by a DIY warrior. I have a bee in my bonnet at the moment about homeowners doing dangerous electric work without even basic knowledge of how electricity works.

poppers

https://twitter.com/VirginMediaNews/status/1975275674660122697

Virigin media report on it. hard to believe its been in circulation since 2017 and never been noticed/reported. Surley at least 1 installer should have reported it either here or in UK.

Markus Antonius

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123883960#Comment_123883960

Do you believe a "DIY warrior" should be allowed service their own car?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123884257#Comment_123884257

40 years ago I knew a DIY warrior who thought you just drained out the dirty oil.

He didn't get far before the engine seized up. Of course he didn't have YouTube back then but I do shudder to think what might have happened if he did the breaks himself. 🤦

Wearb

MOD NOTE

Don't turn this thread to a discussion about what comes under the remit of a diyer. Open a new thread if anyone wants to discuss that subject.

Kaisr Sose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123883960#Comment_123883960

Yet Irish builders put shelving in hot press for that purpose…maybe if it was so wrong/dangerous they should not do so?

As another poster said, it's common practice in other countries.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123881794#Comment_123881794

well it’s attached to metal pipes. If the pipes aren’t bonded there’s a chance your radiators etc could become live

John.G

Will someone please draw a schematic of the "wrongway" connections and why doesn't the (if installed) RCD trip if there is a 35mA imbalance between L&N especially when the pump starts running?

Lenar3556

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123884762#Comment_123884762

The terminals on the pump are LNE in that order. When the plug is reversed the L & E are swoped, connecting live to the pump body, neutral correctly, and an earth connection to the pumps live terminal.

The pump doesn’t run.

The only stimulus for an RCD to trip (if one were fitted) depends on the ability of the pump pipework to dissipate the current on the pump body (via incorrect live connection) to earth.
This will be install specific and in the case of plastic pipework may not happen at all.