Wicklow Rail Capacity Enhancement

marno21

Not seen much discussion of this and it would seem off topic for the DART+ thread.

PIN out for BEMU charging at Wicklow Station.

https://www.etenders.gov.ie/epps/pmc/viewPmc.do?resourceId=6625732

riddlinrussell

Bit confused how it would be off topic for the DART+ thread, isn't this an upgrade explicitly to support use of the new DART trains in a new DART service to Wicklow?

KrisW1001

Yes, this is sort-of under the umbrella of DART+ South, but as it can be being proceeded without a Railway Order, they’re going ahead with it. IÉ were telling locals that services would start in 2028, but the Minister is saying 2030.

Dart extension to Wicklow town pushed back to 2030 | Irish Independent

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123851268#Comment_123851268

It isn't as such, but any conversation about this line, quickly ends up pulling in heated conversations about the Rosslare services, should they terminated before the DART line, how the Rosslare services can be improved, etc.

Some of that is definitely related to DART+, but some of it isn't and there is a definite overlap, but it also might be annoying for people who just want to talk about DART+ and nothing else.

I think it is a very good idea to have a separate thread for this specific line.

Delighted to hear that this is actually happening and being tendered.

orb123

Posted the Wicklow Capacity Study before in the Dart+ thread but might be handy to have it here too

https://www.irishrail.ie/getmedia/fd572411-2be7-4449-adfb-a8ee58c11837/IE_FOI_829-Response-Pack.pdf

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123851901#Comment_123851901

This is a fantastic document. It gives a great overview of the difficulties faced with this section of the line and sets out an IMO well thought out and affordable solution for the medium term.

This is a most read for anyone interested in this line from Greystones.

orb123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123852716#Comment_123852716

Yep. The plans seem to be very achievable. Definitely would be a major improvement on what we have today.

road_high

I don’t get the big furore about direct Rosslare services- it’s very common as I travel around GB to have to change services. As a compromise perhaps keep the existing direct ones and all new additions to the timetable change for DART. The current Wexford timetable is woefully inadequate so this would be a great way to increase frequency if people would actually listen

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123858495#Comment_123858495

I don't think the idea of this is to increase frequency of the line. If it were we would be tunnelling the head.

road_high

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123858510#Comment_123858510

the idea as I understand it would be to run more services south of Greystones that will meet the already regular DART services and broaden out the timetable, potentially using more efficiently any slack usage in those. I doubt the DART is packed outside of rush hour times. Seems very sensible to me

goingnowhere

Every time you introduce a change you lose a chunk of perspective passengers, it adds risk, delay

Boarding at say Pearse day of a march at Lansdowne Rd, can’t get on, get left behind miss connection Vs the current status quo of a dedicated train

it’s a fairly minimal capacity hit to have the intercity train follow 3 minutes behind a DART over the Bray head section

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123858510#Comment_123858510

Wicklow Town will go from 6 trains per day (4 for Kilcoole), to 36 trains per day!

That is a massive increase in frequency.

[1] Basically Wicklow Town and Kilcoole will increase to two trains an hour (x 18 hours or so operation, obviously timetable dependent, might be one or two less). One a direct DART BEMU to the city center, the second an hourly Rosslare to Greystones DMU shuttle, obviously you'd have to transfer between DMU and DART at Greystones, but still a fantastic increase in frequency compared to today.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123859095#Comment_123859095

Yes, the report linked above estimates that the hourly DART BEMU's from Wicklow Town/Kilccole arriving into Greystones at peak times will only be 25% full by Greystones. So still plenty of capacity.

KrisW1001

To answer the criticism of terminating at Wicklow:

Transfer between a terminating service and a service that starts at that station is not a major deterrent to usage, as it will be extremely easy to line up the trains such that the connecting service is always waiting just across the platform. People are put off by having to wait for a connecting train: walking out of one train and into another is a much better proposition.

The alternative, of a no-change service is a problem, because running any diesel-powered train through to Pearse will play havoc with the capacity of the line: The only way to operate these efficiently is as a limited stops service (as happens right now), but doing that requires gaps to be left in the DART timetable to give the diesel service a clear run through multiple stations.

Once you increase DART capacity from Wicklow northwards, as is planned, there will be far fewer windows for a DMU to skip through, so you’ll end up being delayed behind DART trains. At that point, you may as well switch to all-stops, but that causes problems due to the slower acceleration of DMUs, which reduces the available capacity of the line. Terminating before the DART network will vastly improve capacity and punctuality of DART.

The change at Wicklow is a far better service, particularly as it allows passengers from Wexford and Wicklow to get on or off at any DART station in the city, not just Pearse. Yes, it’s true that requiring a change of train might dissuade a small number of passengers, but providing a higher number of daily services will attract far more passengers, so it’s a net positive.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123860729#Comment_123860729

Travelling from Dun Laoghaire to Maynooth involves train changes. Changing at Grand Canal Dock in the evenings where some of the services start is very easy. Just cross the platform.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123860729#Comment_123860729

Worth adding that the above report confirms that once DART+ is complete it is expected that Bray to City will have a 5 minute frequency!

That would be a fantastic improvement to service, with that level of frequency, you could almost call that DART line another Metro line! Yes technically not a Metro but a very Metro like turn up and go level of service, with massive capacity.

But the trade off will be the Rosslare service needing to become a shuttle terminating at Greystones. No way could you operate DMU's into a line with DART's operating every 5 minutes and really no point given it would be stuck behind a stopping DART anyway.

But even that would be a significant improvement for the Rosslare service, going from just 6 trains a day to an hourly service of 18 trains a day or so. As you say, most likely a very real net positive in the number of passengers using the Rosslare line.

And of course big increase in services to Greystones and Wicklow.

All over I think these are very positive changes along the line.

Charles Babbage

An improvement in frequency to the Rosslare service, but not an improvement in travel time owing to the large number of stops from Bray to the city There are half a dozen places on this line where passing loops could be incorporated, we still need Wexford trains that do not stop at every suburban station.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123861012#Comment_123861012

Wexford trains will end up being routed via Waterford for significant journey time improvements.

Plus there is no space for passing loops in south Dublin.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123861096#Comment_123861096

There are multiple green strips along the line wide enough to build a loop and the sea is on one side in many cases. There is space at Dun Laoghaire station. There may not be the will though.

Waterford is further from Wexford than Gorey and on that line you arrive in Heuston with another 15 mins to go anywhere. This hardly seems like progress.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123861151#Comment_123861151

You understood that a random bit of greenery doesn't make a passing loop!

Waterford is further from Wexford than Gorey and on that line you arrive in Heuston with another 15 mins to go anywhere. This hardly seems like progress.

You know that the All Island Rail Review states that going via Waterford will be 1 hour faster then the current line!

It is like how sometimes a motorway is a longer distance then taking local roads, but ends up being much faster due to the higher quality of road and less congestion.

orb123

I think this proposal is the only way we are realistically going to see a meaningfully better service along the route.

Over the last 10-15 years there's been what - only 1 additional return service added? Seperating the DART from the Rosslare services should make it easier to drastically increase the service level at a much quicker pace.

I've always thought trialling the shuttle services on weekends is the best way to get people on board with the plan(excuse the pun).

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123861151#Comment_123861151

The space at Dun Laoghaire station isn't usable for that purpose.

road_high

going via Waterford seems a tad mental to me unless you want to get to that side of Dublin or intermediate Kilkenny Carlow Kildare stations - that line would need major upgrades to reduce the journey time massively. I know there’s plans to double track and electrify it but that’s way down the line I’d say

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123861645#Comment_123861645

Yes, that is the plan, by combining Wexford services onto the Waterford line, you make the Cost Benefit Analysis of updating and improving the Waterford line at lot more attractive.

So rather then having two poorly used lines that don't have the numbers to invest in, you have one busier line that can justify upgrading. Double track it, electrify it and speed improvements.

Also keep in mind the Waterford line benefits from the quad tracking into Heuston and the fast intercity lines that can skip commuter/DART services, while the Rosslare line would always be stuck behind a DART.

Of course non of this will happen overnight, but it is a solid plan.

p_haugh

Also, I would imagine Wexford services using the Waterford line could use the direct curve to skip Kilkenny for some services, which would save a good amount of time. They would also likely start from a Wexford South station and potentially use the old Killinane curve alignment, in order to avoid trundling along the quays and then needing to perform a turn back at Rosslare South.

road_high

They could do a Manulla junction type solution surely with Kilkenny if they really wanted to? Stick a park and ride with it. Huge chunk of the passengers on this line are going to/from there

This line isn’t perfect but it’s a lot better than the east coast line in terms of travel time and frequency even now

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123861186#Comment_123861186

Of course I understand that a random bit of greenery doesn't make a passing loop! You need track and signals as well.

This is not really about the feasibility of doing this on technical grounds, it is about the NIMBY objections and law cases that they fear will arise.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123862183#Comment_123862183

Which requires significant CPOing of peoples back gardens and homes in an area of the most expensive property in the country!

I think you are massively underestimating how much space passing loops take up and in particular how tricky it would be on a line that is in a cutting.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123862205#Comment_123862205

I accept that this project is almost unachievable in this country, so tough on the people in Gorey and Arklow. However, they need to bite the bullet on the Northside and CPO gardens, put in retaining walls and whatever it takes. In fact, they should start tomorrow and put in passing loops on the easier bits.

OisinCooke

Passing loops also still require a train to pull into the loop, come to a stop, wait for a train to pass, wait some more for the block section ahead to become clear, move out of the loop and continue on. Who do you propose uses the loop? The Rosslare trains would have a longer journey to the CC than currently if using it, and it also adds a level of dependency to the DART timetable - if a Rosslare train is delayed, the DART has to wait for it to enter the loop before it can pass it. And in terms of the DART, sending a high frequency commuter service into a passing loop to wait for an intercity to pass, isn’t exactly the best idea as it hampers and has huge knock on effects to DART frequency.

The combined method of terminating an hourly Rosslare train in Greystones or Bray to switch to a DART that is waiting on the other platform, and running one DART an hour beyond Greystones to Wicklow, adds ginormous capacity and frequency enhancements to the line, and yes while overall journey times may be slower, the frequent and capacity are much much higher, which studies have shown matter more to commuters than journey time. The DART that is timed to “intercept” the Rosslare also won’t have to wait if the train is delayed, as with a 5 minute frequency like the report mentions, the Rosslare train can arrive at any time and passengers will still have a more or less ‘direct’ interchange.

Finally to address going via Waterford, @bk makes the point exceedingly well, Waterford, Kilkenny, Carlow, and now Wexford being 4 large population centres on the same line, makes upgrading the line even more attractive, and according to the AISRR, journey times will be faster via Waterford than via both the existing line, and the M11, which is phenomenal.

Heuston will also eventually (and not as long as we think, I suspect) have a direct DART Underground link to the CC and beyond so will be as attractive a station to arrive into as any European station (of which there are many) in a similar position. While this is a bit more pie in the sky, I suspect that by the time the Waterford line is fully electrified/upgraded to 200kmh running, the wheels for DU will be very much in motion…

roadmaster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123861728#Comment_123861728

I presume if the waterford route was used the same or even more trains would still have to use the Connoly/Wexford line to ensure service is maintained for Enniscorty and Gorey?

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123864294#Comment_123864294

Sort of, but it won’t be the “Wexford-Connolly” service. Wexford services will actually run more often than at present, but they will terminate at Wicklow with a direct changeover to DART there.