Wicklow Rail Capacity Enhancement

Taisteal Éireann

Terminating at Bray, Greystones or Wicklow is honestly the only option for the Rosslare line unless there are massive infrastructure improves which will likely cost hundreds of millions of Euro and if they're not happening now while a Wicklow TD is de facto running the government and will be for the foreseeable future, they're unlikely to ever happen. This could actually be done tomorrow - Bray has the infrastructure already of a terminating platform, plus, the train usually empties out at Bray as it is. Terminating at Bray doesn't necessarily solve the single line Bray Head capacity issues though.

Anyone coming from south of Wicklow (bar Rathdrum) is already much better off taking a bus to Dublin - it's quicker, usually cheaper and I'd argue that Wexford Bus are possibly the best private operator in the country. From Wexford, the bus can be as quick as 1 hour 50 minutes, whereas the train takes 2 hours 40 minutes. An hourly regional Bray/Greystones/Wicklow - Rosslare service would be a monumental improve on the current state of the line and would be a much better use of resources.

The whole Rosslare line and N11 corridor in North Wickow have been neglected for far too long and by successive governments and departments. The 131 and 133 buses (LF double deckers at a 15-20 minute frequency) and the 740A are full every morning and evening while traffic is usually gridlocked from Newtownmountkennedy and sometimes beyond. The M/N11 bus lanes and the DART to Wicklow will help alleviate these issues but they are needed now, not in the next decade.

riddlinrussell

Spurring off with a 'South Wexford' station will also improve service on both lines as far fewer trains would be running 'Wexford North' to Rosslare along the dead slow (though fun) promenade section.

Consonata

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123864392#Comment_123864392

Is there much utility terminating at Wicklow over Greystones? The true bottle necks don't set in till further north

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123865323#Comment_123865323

Well it gives Wicklow double the frequency. By having the shuttle stop at both Wicklow and Greystones, it means Wicklow will effectively have a service every 30 minutes (assuming timetables as such).

According to the report published above, terminating at Greystones won't be a problem, so might as well take advantage of it.

PlatformNine

Correct me if I'm wrong but if the Wexford services operates to Greystones, it would have to be two back-to-back services because of track capacity.

At the moment it takes just over 15 minutes to do Greystones-Wicklow which would make proper 2tph impossible. But either way whether it operates as two back-to-back services or as actual 30 min frequency having two trains is better than one.

More generally speaking I think if they are going to operate Wexford shuttles it need to be at least to Greystones. The best possible solution would be Bray for the obvious reasons: More bus options, more frequent DARTs, and platform 3. Of course Bray Head makes that more difficult in which case Greystones is still a much better option to Wicklow, as the transfers as are at least a bit more flexible. In particular it could in theory be possible to have the transfer be to a Greystones DART, rather than consistently unloading the hourly Wexford Shuttle onto the hourly Wicklow DART.

bk

One interesting point, in the report published above, they did consider 2 DART BEMU's per hour to Wicklow, so 3 trains per hour including the shuttle.

They decided against it as given the single track between Greystones and Wicklow, the schedule wouldn't have enough buffer for delays and that could have knock on to the whole DART network, so they took the more conservative approach of just 1 DART per hour.

However they did mention that in future it could be looked into double tracking or passing loop between Greystones and Wicklow you could possibly go to 2/3 trains per hour to Wicklow. I was thinking you could even possibly extend the 3 Greystones DART's per hour (planned) to Wicklow if it was double tracked.

Also if the hourly shuttle is a success, could you do a 30 minute shuttle in future? Might require more passing loops.

Of course the bottleneck is the capacity of three trains per hour through Bray Head. But it feels like there is lots you can do to improve services south of it before you hit that capacity constraint.

And if those services do cause the capacity limits to be reached, then it becomes much easier to justify a second tunnel under Bray head if large numbers are using the line versus the tiny numbers that currently use it.

Of course I'm talking far into the future here, perhaps decades, but interesting ideas worth considering.

Sam Russell

Currently, the first train from Bray to Wicklow leaves Bray at 10:23 am.

What kind of service is that?

The first Dublin Wexford train arrives in Wexford after noon. So no serious traveller could see that as a satisfactory service. That is a distance of 114 km as the crow flies, and it takes 2 hrs 38 min. That is less than 44 km/h.

What kind of service is that?

The Rosslare train could turnaround at Bray, and return back to Rosslare from early morning. Passengers could walk across the island platform to a waiting Dart and continue to Howth/Malahide without delay. It would also relieve the line of several diesel trains.

That could start now with suitable adjustment of the timetable.

spillit67

One advantage of Bray would be the ability to swap to Luas as well as DART. A Luas likely to go via Sandyford and UCD onwards towards Stephen’s Green.

Of course this appears to be on the long finger. This solution appears best though in the short to medium term though, particularly as south Wicklow is getting more housing.

Sam Russell

Any idea of the cost per Km to double track a section of single track line?

Some lines were originally double tracked, and others were designed to be double tracked but were never built that way. Obviously bridges and tunnels affect the cost.

If the Bray to Wexford line was looked at, was any of it double tracked?

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123867716#Comment_123867716

there was a double track section between Greystones and Wicklow (around Newcastle I think). That's it AFAIK.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123867264#Comment_123867264

The issue with Bray is that they can only fit 3 trains per hour per direction in the tunnels of Bray head. So if you want to terminate the Rosslare shuttle DMU at Bray, then you can only have two DART's per hour from Greystones.

Sure you can still stop the Rosslare DMU at Greystones and then transfer at Bray, but two downsides of that:

• A 4 car ICR will have far less capacity then a 8/10 carriage DART. So you are decreasing the number of passengers that can effectively carried through the tunnel.
• Greystones would have only two trains direct to the City instead of three. Keep in mind that Greystones has twice as many boardings as all the other stations south of it put together! Over 2,100 versus less then 1,000! It makes more sense to prioritise the direct services from Greystones given the comparatively large number of passengers using it. For Rosslare line passengers it mostly won't make a difference if they swap between DMU and DART at Greystones or Bray, as they have to transfer either way, so it doesn't make sense to force the much larger numbers of passengers from Greystones to also have to transfer.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123867716#Comment_123867716

The report details the line between Greystones and Wicklow, but they don't cost double tracking or the option of 3km long passing loops that they looked at.

They do mention constraints around private property ownership along the line and large area of it being designated as a nature conservation area. So I don't think it is simple, but also not impossible or anything, certainly nothing compared to the challenges you'd face North of Bray.

Sam Russell

What would be the best approach? Make the Bray Head tunnel dual track, or double track from the southern part of Bray Head to Wicklow?

The capacity issue of 8 coach Dart cf with a four car IC train is very valid.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123858495#Comment_123858495

very simply

1. there is no need to implement it, it is being done simply to do nothing while pretending to do something.
2. hardly anyone would actually use it with that configuration because they lose the incentives to travel by rail.
   1. others changing somewhere else is not an argument for it here.
      it's a great way to increase frequency for those who don't use it and won't have to use it.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123860729#Comment_123860729

not if there is an operational issue there isn't or one of the trains is delayed.

• as i mentioned, there is no actual incentive to use it when you lose the benefits of traveling by rail quite a bit of the way through so yes it is a deterrent to quite a lot bar maybe a small few diehards which will not be enough to support it.
  it's not just the connecting train they are put off with, it's the fact that the connection is nonsensical v what they have which dispite it's many faults does offer the benefits of using rail all the way through to dublin which is where the majority want to go.
  actually running the diesel through won't play any real havuk with the running of the line as not only do you need slack in capacity anyway but the diesels using the line are quite quick off the mark anyway including the older 29s which ideally would be gone, not to mention you have now got a load of empty diesels running through as the maintenence regime will not be changed to suit this line and trains are serviced at connolly, no depot is going to be built on this line anywhere.
  terminating short won't improve the punctuality of the dart as if you are genuinely having to resort to that nonsense then you are at the stage where you are running the dart on a knife edge and one little thing sends the whole lot to crap as we saw with the braye airshow incident a few years ago.
  the change at wicklow is not a far better service, it's the same or worse service delivered differently while pretending that it will be better or that more is being given when in reality it isn't.
  the people on boards supporting it mostly aren't the ones going to be inflicted with it, maybe one or 2 perhapse but not most.
  requiring a change of train here is likkely to disuade a large number of passengers because there is now no benefit to actually using the service and anyone wanting to travel to the intermediot dart stations can already do it.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123861211#Comment_123861211

no point as you are not going to get sufficient people on board with this nonsense plan as there is no reason or incentive for anyone bar as i said a few diehards to waste their time on it when they can take the car.
with the direct service for it's many faults there is an incentive to use it as you get the benefits of rail the full way.
all this is really is a do nothing sollution or at worst, throew wexford passengers under the bus for a fantasy level of dart service that can't and won't be delivered reliably.

honestly, forget about it.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123864411#Comment_123864411

as someone who actually uses the line it's very much news to me that the train empties out at braye, it doesn't.
sure, a small few get off there but not many in reality.
no, terminating services short is not the only option for the line even without infrastructure investment, its only the one sort of being persued as it means none of the issues need to be addressed and they can and will suppress demand while they are at it.
no an hourly service (not going to happen) 2 or 3 hourly at most is not a better use of resources but an inefficient one due to the large amounts of empty running to support it as each set will only do maybe 1 shuttle each way before having to go on their other diagrams and the relevant serviceing and maintenence regimes which will not be changed.

KrisW1001

“A change of train” is a walk across a platform. It’s how Cork-Kerry services operate (the Kerry train is waiting on the next platform at Mallow), and it does not dissuade people from using the train.

Not terminating the train means losing 2-3 DART services for each Rosslare service that has to passes through: more if you want a “no stops” service into Pearse. That is not compatible with the primary goal of increasing passenger numbers on DART.

The new arrangement will provide more services from Rosslare, because it insulates DART from the disruption of the inter city train. If people are too delicate to walk across a platform, it is possible that through services could return, but only once electric trains are operating Rosslare-Wicklow.

Working class heroes

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123868975#Comment_123868975

Well if you are arguing against it, it must be a good idea.

Macy0161

I really struggle to see how swapping platforms in Wicklow is going to put people off avoiding the sh*tshow that is the Glen Of The Downs northwards on the N11 to be honest.

Also, a significant number using the Rosslare trains already swap to darts both northbound and southbound, if they need a stop that isn't serviced by the existing train. I used to do it myself when I worked near Lansdowne Road - dart to Bray, then get on the train.

road_high

there’s lots of examples already of this in Ireland- limerick junction change for limerick and Tipperary stations, mallow for the Kerry line services, Kildare for Waterford line and services west, Ballybrophy for Nenagh line, Manulla junction to/fron Balline line….

road_high

You change in cork for the cobh and Midleton lines. Also several in the north like Portrush…

orb123

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123868967#Comment_123868967

If people take that attitude, then we will end up with what have have today - a railway line that is empty during large portions of the day.

Frankly, I don't know how a proposal that could increase the number of trains from 6 a day to 1 service per hour could be described as "..throwing wexford passengers under the bus"

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123868964#Comment_123868964

The IT did an an article last year on this and iirc the response was overwhelmingly positive from commuters on the line. Now that is anecdotal mind, but your reaction is also just that.

riddlinrussell

A great number of studies around the world show that frequency and reliability are two of the biggest factors in transport use.

If you have a consistent service running hourly Wicklow to Rosslare then you will know that you need to get the DART that arrives ahead of it.

If those hourly services are the only thing running on that line, then a delay of a few minutes at Wexford will be factored in to account for any DART delays (I.e. the less frequent service will/should in most circumstances wait for the incoming train to arrive, disembark and passengers to embark on it (this is how it is handled already around the country. I've been running to catch a connection at LJ and the staff said I could calm down as it wouldn't leave without us)

The reverse will be close to seamless as well, you'd hope there is enough flexibility with 20 minute DARTs that they could handle a minute or two delay at Wexford if the Rosslare train is slightly delayed, and any more and you'll only be waiting 10-15 for the next DART

KrisW1001

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123869974#Comment_123869974

Yes, travel time is a distant second to punctuality when it comes to public transport. I used to commute by train a lot when I lived abroad, and it quickly got to the point where I was able to time the start and end of my working day such that in the morning, I reached the station a minute before the train, then got the bus that was waiting in the other station when I arrived there. In the evening, I was able to get to the homeward bus stop a minute before the bus arrived, in time to arrive two minutes before my homeward train arrived at that station.

Once the service is punctual and reliable, you don’t even have to think about it anymore - it’s completely stress-free: unlike driving, where every trip will have a different duration.

Frequency gives you flexibility, and reduces the penalty for arriving too late to catch your service: in my case, if I missed that bus home, the next one was 10 minutes later, and I had to wait an extra 10 minutes at the station (where I could at least get a coffee). Not a big deal.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123869111#Comment_123869111

i know how changes work thanks.
i also know there is no valid reasons for rosslare passengers to have their service changed from a direct to dublin one to one where they are turfed off on to a dart at wherever to continue into dublin.
kerry services at least change on to cork services, so ultimately there is no comparison between the 2, and actually none of us can say people aren't disuaded from using the service because use of what exists does not equate to absolute usage if something better was implemented which chances are usage would increase without a change.
rosslare trains running to dublin is compatable with increasing usage of dart because in reality on the south coast there isn't anywhere near the scope of increasing usage as there is on the north side, and in reality dart at the 10 minute frequency on the south coast has quite a bit of over capacity as it is, and without any extra infrastructure, increasing that further depending on how much will bring large levels of unreliability whether there are rosslare trains or not.
the new arrangement does not insulate dart from any delays or anything as it takes one small issue to bring everything across the whole line from connolly right down to rosslare to a complete hault unless they let whatever south of greystones to go without it's passengers.
it's not the rosslare trains that cause the delays anyway, it is actually the dart delaying itself, and if direct services can return in the future with electric trains they can continue to operate currently because the modern diesels are not the issue in terms of everything that is claimed.
if we were talking about 1980s BR diesels then sure there might be a point but we aren't.
this is a change of trains for change of trains sake, designed to do nothing while pretending to do something, and at worst, ultimately throwing people under the bus to cover up for the fact they won't be able to end up delivering something that was undeliverable in the first place with current infrastructure, and suppressing demand.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123869539#Comment_123869539

yes and none of them are a valid comparison to here because either there were never direct services in the first place, or in the case of limerick and kerry rolling stock saving measures where at least they change to the cork services.

even for ballina it only has a change because it's operationally easier, in the 90s for a good while i believe it was the direct service over westport though in reality both could support one.
so not comparable or a valid argument for imposing a pointless change for rosslare passengers.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123869795#Comment_123869795

actually no, by opposing this nonsense we will have a line that is full of trains with increased usage across the board on both dart and wexford services.
there is not going to be one service an hour, it's not going to happen, the amount of trains to run it reliably + the large scale empty running to support it so trains can get back to connolly and portlaoise means it is not going to work vs a less resource intencive but more frequent direct service.

end of the road

deleted as post didn't quote.

end of the road

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123869912#Comment_123869912

yes and i debunked the article at the time as did a few others as we discussed it.
a few people who were asked whatever in a way that we can't be sure (asking a question different ways can get different answers) is ultimately proof of nothing and should not be used as such because it's not reliable.
so no the response wasn't overwhelmingly positive as a whole, just with the few in the article.
my reaction is much nearer the truth then anecdotal, as lets face it, a good few of us have been long term users and have saw the shoddy treatment from irish rail first hand so can see exactly what they are at.
they don't want to improve services really which is why they are floating the shuttle nonsense, they never have, even the increases around 2004 had to be bet into them by a minister.