Mo Farah question

Musicrules

Mo Farah won his medals for the same reason that Paula Radcliffe and Kelly Holmes won theirs.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123526103#Comment_123526103

Holmes' two gold medals in the Olympics at the age of 34 were well dodgy. She had never even won a European Championship gold medal before……her form suddenly and dramatically improved in the two years before Athens.

Musicrules

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123526137#Comment_123526137

A sudden, dramatic improvement aged 33 should have rang alarm bells but probably too late now.

NIMAN

I often watch the analysts on the athletics on tv, and wonder how many were genuinely clean throughout their careers.

Hashtaglavista

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123526137#Comment_123526137

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123527073#Comment_123527073

Kelly disappeared to South Africa to train with another dodgy athlete who even looked bulked up to the hilt at the time called Mutola. She was an 800m champion. After that spell Holmes dramatically improved and won the medals. I remember it well. They were both very questionable.

Ceepo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123527279#Comment_123527279

If ever there was a case of a suspicion of DSD athlete Mutola fitted the bill.

Holmes on the other hand always had talent. She won sliver and bronze in '95 WC, she also won bronze in Sydney. She also suffered a fair few injuries including stress fractures over the years.

Hashtaglavista

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123528369#Comment_123528369

There's a good interview with Kelly Holmes on "High Performance" on YouTube for anyone who's a fan of her achievements.

She definitely had it tough growing up and did well to achieve what she did. I still think she got some help though.

BP_RS3813

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123528369#Comment_123528369

To be fair now that we know more about it and how to detect it it is easier to see. Back then it wasn't.

I suspect the womens 800m world record holder was DSD to be honest. Some believe it was PED's but I believe it was a case of DSD.

Hashtaglavista

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123528802#Comment_123528802

Probably a mixture of both as Mutola was probably stronger than a your average DSD case and certainly looked massively bulky.

A very trying time for other athletes competing in the 800m in that era, never had a sniff of a win.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123528369#Comment_123528369

I like her as a person but running personal bests and winning Olympic gold medals at 34 seemed very implausible, even allowing for earlier injuries.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123528802#Comment_123528802

Absolutely. Lot these brilliant women are brilliant because they are that bit more (than the average woman) male-like.

Tennis had its share of them as well through the years. It's only natural, really. Tetosterone is what makes men strong and aggressive and instinctively competitive. Hence why women in sport, and particularly physcal and aggressive sports, have to have that man-like drive.

Kelly Holmes has that look and feel. Kinda more masculine…

Ceepo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123528939#Comment_123528939

I totally get what you're saying. And most would concur that Peds were fairly abundant around that time. Just hard to know really about a lot of athletes and indeed the other sports people around that time.

I was just making to point they she wasn't plucked out of total obscurity. She was a European and global medal winner long before she struck double gold. And I think her 800pb was from mid 90's.

It was also said at the time this was the first time she came into a major championship with a injury free.

Shorty69664

Go the uninitiated, what is DSD?

walshb

Kelly was hardly setting the world on fire….

I mean, her 1500 PB wouldn't even be an Irish record. Set aged 34, but nothing that quick.

And her 800 gold medal was 4 seconds almost off the WR. Her 800 PB was set aged 25/26 or so.

1500 Athens she was 34, not 44. It's not young young, but hardly ancient.

Tombo2001

To be fair- while she might have delivered a PB late in her career (i) I wouldnt say she had a dramatic upward trajectory in times (i.e. she didnt get markedly quicker) and (ii) her PBs were never outstanding, either for her time or particularly for now.

Her 1500m PB for example is slower than Sarah Healys. Her 800m PB is a second and a half slower than Hodgkinson.

I would see her as someone who does well in big events, and where everything came right for her on the day.

Arguably, Laura Muir is a much better 1500m runner - or even Ciara Mageean - but they had to run against the greatest 1500m runners of all time in Kipyegon especially and Sifan Hassan.

The other thing, not sure if it means anything, but Keely Hodgkinson has repeatedly said what an inspiration she is, for me thats an endorsement.

BP_RS3813

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123529112#Comment_123529112

The less scientific term being intersex - if you have ever heard of that.

On a extremely basic level an individual is born looking like 1 sex (for example women) but due to something in their biology (typically chromosones - having XY chromosones which are associated with being male) they go through male pubertity giving them an advantage physically over most other women.

Anyone with more knowledge please feel free to correct me but thats it an a basic level according to my understanding.

Caster Semenya is a DSD athlete - 800m olympic runner. Dominated from '08-'19. The Algerian boxer at the centre of the 'scandel' in olympic boxing if you could call it a scandel was recently confirmed to be DSD although most suspected well before hand.

Semanya tried to compete in the 5000m due to less restrictions surrounding testosterone levels (distance running not as important as the 800 obviously in regards to that aspect) and she didn't make the cut.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123529064#Comment_123529064

I would definitely agree on that - she was clearly naturally talented and had been medalling at major championships a full decade before. It's just hard to imagine how any athlete could peak at 34 though, in terms of times and medals…..normally 28/29 would be considered the peak for any middle distance runner. If she'd won Olympic gold in 1996 or even 2000, there would be far less suspicion.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123529202#Comment_123529202

Her 800 peak wasn't in Athens.

She had a 3:57 aged 34 in Athens. It's not extraordinary. May be a little unusual, but not extraordinary.

I will add, that her golds in Athens didn't really excite. Bit underwhelming the feel and response.

Musicrules

Kelly Holmes came 3rd in the European 800m in 2002 and didn't even get out of the heats in the 1,500. Her career was winding down. She was complaining about drugs cheats, similarly to Paula Radcliffe around the same time period. Kelly moved to a different training group and changed the trajectory of her career. Instead of winding down, she made improvements, setting a 1,500m PB at 34 but it's not only times. We know championships are not time trials. She showed incredible power and speed to win double gold at the Athens Olympics, something we had witnessed from her previously.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123529376#Comment_123529376

Any talk about Holmes is completely unprovable of course (it's more than 20 years on). Her entire career trajectory was rather 'unusual', only started championship racing at the age of 23 or so - she had an unconventional CV for an Olympic gold medalist, but could have peaked very late whilst clean too, who knows.

Should be noted too that there are more suspicions these days about Farah and Radcliffe than there ever were about Holmes - direct links to dodgy coaching characters and so on.

Ceepo

It could be argued that Holmes has a young "training age" due to her unconventional start and time missed through injuries.

Our own Mark English just ran pb and NR sub 1.44 pb 800m at 32. Should we question that performance similar to Holmes?

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123529561#Comment_123529561

at 32 running a PB at 800 would be more difficult and unusual than at 1500.

He’s clean, of course. 32 is still a young man. Sometimes things just gel. And folks can’t understand this, unfortunately.

Holmes’ 800 PB was run at a more natural age, and her 1500 PB when past more normal age.

Ceepo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123529596#Comment_123529596

Id agree with you that conventional thinking it's harder to run a 800pb than 1500m at that age. I'm not doubting English, just pointing out that sometimes people are quick to judge athletes from outside Ireland differently than our own.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123529621#Comment_123529621

I knew you weren’t doubting English. You were simply making a valid point/comparison.

Musicrules

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123529561#Comment_123529561

Nearly everyone is getting PB's with the new shoes. That's explainable. It's the unexplainable that raises question marks. To change from a decent elite runner, to a multi Olympic gold medalist raises question marks, especially when you're 34. That's why Mo Farah has question marks also. Mo went to Salazar, Holmes went to Maria Mutola.

Ceepo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123529743#Comment_123529743

I understand exactly what your saying regarding the shoes, but everyone has the benefit of them for more than 5/6 years now, this includes English so there should be somewhat of a level playing field. He also changed coach. But she didn't really go from zero to hero. She ran 1.56 back in 1995 this was without super shoes. A time that still is 2 seconds faster than Mageean national record from last year, with the benefits of the newer shoes.

From memory she said her overtraining was a huge factor in her stress fractures and soft tissue injuries. Change to a better training structure could explain a lot. Again similar to English, who also changed coach.

Musicrules

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123529970#Comment_123529970

English has improved from a 1:44:XX runner to a high 1:43:XX runner with the shoes and training change. Holmes moved from an athlete who didn't qualify from the heats of the 1,500m at European level at age 32 to blitzing the field at Olympic level with a PB of nearly 4 seconds at 34.

Ceepo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123530630#Comment_123530630

But she was injured coming into those games. .here is a small example of her woes as a full time athlete.

She won a gold medal in the Commonwealth Games in 1994 and silver medals at the European and world championships in 1994 and 1995 while still in the army, but did not dedicate herself fully to athletics until 1997, when increased funding allowed her to go full-time.

And that was when her problems started. She was already 27, and just as she should have been peaking, she got injured or fell ill, time and again – glandular fever, ruptured calf, torn achilles, on it went. “Half of the things you go through as an athlete, you don’t tell people. You know, I had five stomach operations during my athletics career. I had twisted ovaries, really bad gynae problems. Men have no frickin’ idea of what women go through!” There was a seven-year period when she never seemed to be fully fit. * From the Guardian. As well as the well documented stress fractures.

So someone who clearly had talent gets 2 years worth of consistent training behind them, then if course it's possible.

Does that mean she didn't or couldn't have used Peds, no. But may not the red flag you think it is.

Edit. English ran 1.45.8 in '13 so he clearly also had talent but didn't break 1.45 for another 8 years. Now of course he was also doing his doctorate as well in that time.

Musicrules

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123530717#Comment_123530717

What injury did she have in 2002? Consistent injury hurts progress at 34, not the other way round. It also leads further to the mental justification in using illegal help. She thought others were on drugs, she felt she didn't get the most out of her career, she felt it wasn't her fault etc. She went to train with an athlete who many always suspected of PED use and saw huge performance improvements. This doesn't mean Mutola was a cheat or that Holmes was but there certainly are red flags.

Hashtaglavista

Then there's the 2003 World Championships where Mutola allowed Holmes to win the 800m silver by slowing deliberately.