Mo Farah question

Tombo2001

Was watching some old championship footage from Worlds in the 2010s and Mo Farah came up a few times; and it got me wondering -

His times were never amazing. His PB for 5000m is 53rd in the all time list; in 10,000m he is 27th.

Plenty of runners from his era ran faster than him, from the 2010s and the 2000s and even the 1990s.

And yet he won the 5000m/10000m double twice at successive olympic games and won 6 world championship golds. On paper, based on what he has won, he is in with a shout as the greatest ever long distance track racer (or certainly Top 5).

In practice, I would rank him below Bekele or Gebreselassie and his PBs are slower - but he has won more than either.

How did he win so much, without being super fast in his chosen events?

MrMusician18

Well...

Jim_Hodge

He won in championships with no pacemakers.

BQQ

maybe Alberto salazar could shed some light on this one

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123479436#Comment_123479436

Surely winning while not having the fast times points away from drugs?

If he isn't the fastest but still wins races, then does that not imply that he is good at racing and at strategy, since he apparently isn't drugged up enough to tear away from the rest of the pack?

Kaisr Sose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123479436#Comment_123479436

Always easy to have a shot like this but, as one of the most tested athletes of his generation (by winning/placing high) how many failed tests?

It is a shadow to be associated with Salazar but nothing has been proven with regards to Mo Farah, So Far(ah) anyway. 😄🤣

Hashtaglavista

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123479547#Comment_123479547

I think a sure sign of a dodgy athlete is someone who misses testing so not only was Mo training with Alberto Salazar and another questionable athlete Galen Rupp but he also missed two drug tests before winning the 5000m and 10000m Olympics in 2012.

Hashtaglavista

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058411163/mo-farah-question

Just googled who was in those races, my take on the Olympics anyway is that he got lucky.

There was nobody in form and the likes of Lagat was in his mid thirties then as well.

Bekele was coming back from injury.

Then there's the dodgy drugs testing as well. These testers give you loads of notice before they look for testing, there's really no excuse to miss them.

I like Mo Farah and I followed him back then, it was great for Britain at the time and they did a great job hosting the Olympics. But Mo was never the most elegant runner with his clumsy trips and coming from the back during precarious stumbles to win races. I think I remember one race where he collided with a runner on the track and went to run clockwise afterwards. Nice guy being interviewed though. Pity he never excelled in the marathon, it would've been exciting.

Enduro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058411163/mo-farah-question

 he is in with a shout as the greatest ever long distance track racer

There's the answer right there. He was a phenomenally great racer, certainly in comparison to his opponents. Not the fastest runner, but a far better racer than his opponents. He out fought and out thought his opponents, without having the raw speed over distance to out run them. I really liked him for that. Much more interesting than just running faster then everyone else.

cmac2009

https://russellrunner.com/farah-and-salazar-the-definitive-guide/

If you have the time and inclination, this is a great in depth look at his career. I was left in no doubt about his success.

NIMAN

If we think Mo was guilty of doping, and i do, then what does it say about the other guys who had better times than him?

I'd also be suspicious of them.

Cosmo Kramer

When the others were running their fast times with pacemakers in non-championship events, Mo was…elsewhere.

pc11

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123479947#Comment_123479947

A common logical error. Times and doping are not linearly related. There is no way to conclude a faster runner is more likely to be doping simply because he is faster.

walshb

His global achievements on the track would put him in the top 10 ever track athlete in my opinion. He has what, 10 global golds? Unbelievable success.

Yes, his PBs aren’t extraordinary, but he’s damn quick, as his PB at 1500 is faster than both Bekele and Geb.

The drugs talk, as usual is just so lazy and silly. Some folks just can’t accept anything these athletes do.

NIMAN

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123480790#Comment_123480790

Maybe because so many have been caught doping over the years? Would you blame people for being suspicious?

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123480799#Comment_123480799

But jaysus it gets awful tiring the incessant suspicion and disbelieving.

Some people just can’t accept that there are exceptionally gifted people (who are clean) that are the absolute best… what’s the alternative? To try say every WR on the books “can’t” be legit?

NIMAN

Is it not true that of the top 10 fastest men ever in the 100m sprint, 9 have failed drugs tests?

I do accept that there are clean athletes, but there are also many doping ones.

And other sports are just as bad too. Im not picking on athletics.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123480841#Comment_123480841

Yes, but Bolt, who has the top two fastest times in history.. he never failed a dope test, but the pathetic suspicion narrative will also see folks not able to accept his brilliance. It’s a stupid pointless exercise. Look at this thread. Simple question asked that descends into folks labeling Farrah (an athlete who never failed a test) as a cheat.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123479547#Comment_123479547

Sounds absolutely word for word like what was said about Armstrong and Ferrari back in the day.

walshb

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123480965#Comment_123480965

was waiting for the old trotted out “but what about Lance” argument!!!

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123480972#Comment_123480972

Good for you.

It doesn't make Farah's connections to Oregon Progect any less dubious.

bike2wkr

Farah did well as he moved to nikes group under salazar. Running 120 miles a week. Professional setup, Nike money behind them, better training program etc.

It's since been proven that salazar was involved in dodgy practices such as massaging testerone cream into athletes and major use of L carratine in drip format. Who knows what else.

Also farah was associated with Jamal in training camps a coach who was caught with EPO. Not to mention the mos doorbell!

He was a very good athlete. His 52 second final lap was his trump card so tactically he would sit in pack and let others do the work. Bit like Jakob now.

As mentioned there was a lack of stars to beat him at the time. Gebrewit and bekeles brother who were good but didn't know how to win.

Personally wasn't a big fan of farah as for me it was not that exciting to watch. Likes of haile and bekele would take it on and go for it.front Running.inspire next generation etc

He probably was a clean as the rest though I'd say.

cmac2009

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123480790#Comment_123480790

And some folk are just naive in the extreme. Bursts onto the scene at the ripe old age of 27 having shown zero pedigree as a top class runner before that. Coincidentally all this success happens around the time he joins up with Salazar. He must have been an incredible coach to unlock such a well hidden talent. That's before we even get into all the lies and missed drug tests.

Kaisr Sose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123480725#Comment_123480725

Exactly. Just look at our most famous doper, Michelle Smith Dr Brun. She never came close to a World or Olympic Record in Atlanta.

Agree with @walshb that it's tiring that people suspect every high performing athlete as being a cheat. Yes, there have been prominent cheats, and cheats will always try, but the majority of athletes in all sports are clean. If you believe otherwise, it's pointless watching any sport.

Kaisr Sose

@breezy1985 Lance was a dope (literally) to come back from retirement. He was doping in an era where testing was not as advanced as it is now. He would not get away with that scale of cheating now.

It still does not make every high performing athlete a potential doper. In cycling right now there are a number of guys that are just physiologically/genetically superior to the rest of the riders of their generation. Their performances are phenomenal, without suspicion of doping, yet some still say it's not possible, and they must be on something, with no proof.

It's just like the usual conspiracy theory/rhetoric. Put it out there and people start believing it.

Tombo2001

Thanks folks - interesting discussion.

I think its a given there is a suspicion around Farah, and certainly his association with Salazer taints him somewhat, while not necessarily discrediting his achievements. Salazar quite clearly is an abusive narcissist, and surrounded himself with dubious people (on the coaching side). I read Kara Goachers book recently and it was a shame to read about someone who was at the same time winning world championship medals and also feeling miserable and inadequate about herself.

On Farah - the thing is, the doping rumour doesnt relate to this question - for example going into the olympic final in 2012 he was the 7th fastest starter.

What he did have though compared to his peers was an exceptionally good 1500m time, and sustained finishing speed over the last two laps. Which I think kind of answers the question. How he got that speed is another question.

Trampas

He had a great long kick. Usually in championship races it can be very slow at times. Maybe if races were faster from the get go instead of going easier then maybe he might not have won as many as he did but well will never know

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123481295#Comment_123481295

I certainly don't believe current cyclists are dopers in general and if I did I wouldn't still be the big cycling fan that I am. You are wrong about testing at the time though as Armstrong did fail tests in 1999 and UCI allowed him against their own rules to cover it up with fake prescriptions.

I don't and never just accuse sports stars because they are exceptional but I do accusr athletes involved with Salazar the same way I do cyclists involved with Ferrari or Spanish cyclists, Olyimians and World Cup winners involved with Fuentes. Same for Sky and Freeman. All of the above doctors have been caught or admitted to doping.

Kaisr Sose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123481315#Comment_123481315

Farah was a fierce competitor. His determination to get to, and over the line first is not something you can train. He gave 100%. I loved watching him race.

Kaisr Sose

@breezy1985

Fair enough on your views of cycling. It was not obvious when you brought up Lance. My sport was cycling and did not believe Lance was clean. I raced with some of his then 7-Eleven teammates in USA in 89 or 90. it would have been great today I raced with him 😀.

If I recall correctly, Lance failed a test in the 1999 TDF (testing positive for the corticosteroids) that was covered up with a backdated prescription. Shame on UCI etc. He passed all the other tests as a stage winner, GC leader/winner. Yet most of this time he was doping. I think it was like 500 passed tests in and out of competition.

He played a weak doping system with micro dosing and blood doping. They had no reliable test for doping up to Athens Olympics, and EPO detection was also pretty early days. Basically most of the advancments in testing mirror Olympic Games cycles. By the time London came along, what Lance was doing would have been picked up.

So back to Mo, even with retrospective testing, which is routinely performed on past samples, of which Mo's would be in scope, there is still no fail.

Tombo2001

Its interesting that he is

-17th fastest of all time over 1500m

-51st fastest of all time over 5000m

But has won more 2 Olympic and 3 World golds in 5000m, and never competed in 1500m.