North Korea General Discussion.

csirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123605126#Comment_123605126

How come the "poor" people in South Korea are much better off than the vast majority of people in the DPRK?

Rawr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123606113#Comment_123606113

If the reply you get doesn’t in some way involve a mention of the «Imperialist American / NIS Jack-boot on the necks of peaceful Korea» or some such overdramatic conflation of how it’s everyone else who’s wrong and not Pyongyang…I’ll be very surprised. (And a little disappointed, as this is the fun part of dealing with KFA-types)

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123605126#Comment_123605126

So why don't they, then?

Is there any nation on earth whose percentage of the population which has actually left the border beyond government sanctioned activities is as low as that of North Korea?

I mean, they're not exactly effuse in their TripAdvisor reviews.

Rawr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123607711#Comment_123607711

Well….perhaps Eritrea…but not exactly the best club of nations to be part of. In other words…not fun places to be at all

Lucien_Sarti

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123607711#Comment_123607711

So why don't they, then?

This is is a direct answer (but unfortunately alot of text) from a reddit user;
as shown, the wording of some of these are so vague as to include the entire population of the DPRK:-

The reason there are so few North Korean citizens abroad is the result of US-led sanctions at the UN that make it nearly impossible for any UN member state to allow a North Korean citizen to visit.

Despite the DPRK having normalized diplomatic relations with the majority of countries in the world, US-led sanctions make it so that any UN member country cannot allow North Koreans into their countries. As many of you know, I’m a lawyer and went to the painstaking trouble of actually reading these sanctions and sure enough, they basically prohibit the movement of North Koreans into most countries, which makes it very easy for the same west that imposed the sanctions to say “Well, see? They can’t leave their country.” It is a very nice little trick, but it is a lie.

Here are a list of the uniformly US-led UN sanctions against the DPRK, with parenthetical explainers, followed by additional context about country-specific sanctions:

UN RESOLUTION 1718 (2006) (devastatingly broad sanctions that crippled DPRK’s economy, blocked trade, and blocked travel for anyone who so much as “supports” the DPRK’s sovereignty and military defense)
2 UN RESOLUTION 1874 (2009) (expanded brutal economic sanctions against the DPRK, including mandatory inspections of all North Korean cargo, tightening the noose on the nation’s already struggling economy)
3. UN RESOLUTION 2087 (2013) (general intensifying of economic and financial restrictions, expansion of travel ban)
4. UN RESOLUTION 2094 (2013) (extended severe financial sanctions, prohibiting financial transfers to the DPRK, expanded existing travel bans to target anyone “associated with” the DPRK’s military or nuclear program)
5. UN RESOLUTION 2270 (2016) (sanctions specifically targeting vital DPRK sectors like minerals, cutting off critical revenue streams, and again, further extending travel restrictions even more broadly)
6. UN RESOLUTION 2232 (2006) (additional significant restrictions on trade and financial transactions)
7. UN RESOLUTION 2371 (2017) (yet another escalation in economic warfare, this resolution essentially banned ALL exports from the DPRK, and included even broader and more vague restrictions targeting people linked to the DPRK government (which is pretty much everyone) and military)
8. UN RESOLUTION 2375 (2017) (slashed North Korea’s oil imports and banned all textile exports, added more types of individuals to the travel ban list, extending the ban to anyone “supporting” the DPRK’s military or nuclear program, which again, is basically everyone lol)
9. UN RESOLUTION 2397 (2017) (sanctions expanded to a near-total embargo on oil supplies to the DPRK, extending the travel ban to include even more people and entities)
10. UN RESOLUTION 2407 (2018) (reaffirmed harsh sanctions, maintaining suffocating economic blockade and “panel” to oversee enforcement of sanctions)

The US-led UN Sanctions are comprehensive and extensive, but the citizens of the DPRK are subject to a ton of other active sanctions and travel bans imposed by individual countries and groups of countries, including —you guessed it — MORE US Sanctions!

The US has issued several Executive Orders targeting North Korea, including EO 13551 (2010), EO 13687 (2015), EO 13722 (2016), and EO 13810 (2017), which impose sweeping sanctions on North Korean people, entities, and sectors. US financial sanctions block, and can be used to seize the assets of any DPRK national, and prohibit any North Korean’s access to the U.S. financial system. There is a comprehensive and total trade embargo in place, and a total travel ban.

Not surprisingly, the EU, UK, Australia, New Zealand, have sanctions in place that are very similar to, and in many cases mirror the sanctions framework in the US. Japan has a total ban on trade and bans North Koreans from entering the country the same way South Korea does. In fact, Malaysia, Mexico, Thailand, Singapore, Philippines, and New Zealand have strict entry bans in place today.

Anybody with the time can check the fine-print to verify the travel prohibitions in these resolutions & EOs.

As is standard, anything to do with the US/Wests ruling class’s shameless, brazen allegations about Korea – is merely projection about itself.

Given all of this dystopia, I find it surprising that the relevant countries even allow exemptions for Korean Olympians to enter their territory to participate in the Olympics & in other sporting events.

Greyfox

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123609326#Comment_123609326

Why are you posting this horsesh*t? Everyone with a brain knows that if a North Korean citizen is caught trying to leave their country they will be sent to prison.

Rawr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123609488#Comment_123609488

I was going to save this for down the road, but in the hope of helping to answer your question and to elighten anyone interesting in where this distorted mindset comes from, I offer the Dutch Documentary «Friends of Kim»

Some disclaimers:

• This is from years ago, back when Kim Jong Ill still had a few Hennessy's to go before kicking the bucket. So keep that in mind.
• It’s presented in English, so don’t worry about learning Dutch.
• The video itself is borked to high heaven, but most of it is still watchable. It also repeats twice, so it’s actually 1 hour long and not the 2+ hours YouTube indicate.

Actual video starts at the 01:00 mark. The audio dies suddenly at 15:00, but returns about a minute later.

https://youtu.be/Mu55fBzNkCM

What’s the point of sharing this? To introduce you to two things, The Korean Freindship Association who I’ve mentioned and in particular their President (who I’ve hinted at), who I think is the perfect personification of the kind of mindset we are encountering here.

Grab a coffee or something stronger, and enjoy…

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123609326#Comment_123609326

The first warning sign was how every total ban somehow kept getting even more total, indicating that the resolutions were not as comprehensive as perhaps you might have believed. So as it happens, i also have a law degree, and also had a bit of time to check the fine print. Joys of jet lag.

Actually, the above is wrong. The first warning sign is the fact that none of the above covers the lack of movement prior to 2006.

But in any case, after 2006, i note that to be covered under the prohibition of "supporting" DPRKs position, the individuals had to be designated by the UN. Which is why the ban was able to be expanded in 2013, by the addition of for four names. Not a major proportion of the population.

It is true that some nations do have categorical travel bans, but as you observe, it's actually not the majority of the world. Yet the 99.X percent of the DPRK population are still not visiting them, and travel bans imposed from outside DPRK are not the cause.

banie01

There was a thread on r/Ireland last week about a Dub wondering why his neighbour was displaying a DPRK flag.

This week has seen a hilarious update!

https://redd.it/1ltrvd2

Lucien_sarti may be about to experience a romcom style love story 😉

Rawr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123611781#Comment_123611781

An interesting Boards / Reddit crossover event! Gotta renew my popcorn subscription.

TheValeyard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123611781#Comment_123611781

Genuinely wondered was there a link. Lol

Rawr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123611781#Comment_123611781

Alright, thanks to a bit of a dive into that subreddit and the Korea flag saga (Damn you Banie…I was going to be productive today!) I found an article linked by one of the Redditors that had me in genuine stitches with laughter.

For your consideration, the absolute trainwreck of when the «Official» IRA tricked the North Koreans into training some of their members to be assassins:

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/official-iras-terror-trip-to-north-korea/29760564.html#

I’m beside myself. The fecklessness of the «Official» IRAs, the rank stupidity of N.Korean Intelligence…it’s got it all.

Lucien_Sarti

I don’t have any more historical DPRK travel statistics atm.

But its faintly surreal to expect Koreans to travel abroad in greater numbers when it probably has the most international travel restrictions on its citizens than any other country in the world.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123610060#Comment_123610060

This Alehjandro fella probably learned from that experience to stop naively bringing anti-DPRK propagandists and other assorted messers on his group trips.

Lucien_Sarti

For what its worth, here is my understanding of what most people believe about the DPRK:-

That it is totalitarian meaning no ‘democracy’.
They also believe that the entire purpose of the WPK fighting off the Japanese & then US imperialist fascists (given, with outside help both times) is so that they could institute a mind-mindbogglingly gargantuan gulag system where vast portions of the population are worked to death under incomprehensibly sadistic conditions.
Most people believe that that is what Marxism or socialism is - and they sincerely believe this to be the case.

Then they believe that when the WPK build huge leisure resorts or even aqua-parks that the people filmed using these facilities are in terror of Kim Jong Un and the photo-shoot is just for show to fool the international community (also believing that for some unknown reason, this would be a priority for the WPK).

They next believe that all the new free, modern housing is just a potemkin sham and that it is in Pyongyang only not the rest of the country – again to fool foreigners as to whats really going on.

Because what they believe is really going on is the ‘ruling elite’ of the Kim dynasty have all the wealth and the majority of people live off grass (despite having a literacy rate of 100%).

I’ve laid out earlier why I think people believe this (RFA→BBC pipeline).

In my opinion, this shows the disadvantage of learning about Korea or Marxism only from capitalist oligarchs. It would be like asking a Tory, lets say Boris Johnson, to teach you what happened to the Walls of Benin or about the famines in India from 1880-1920.

The answer you would get from him would, in essence, be the opposite of reality.

TheValeyard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123615291#Comment_123615291

Do you have a North Korean flag hanging outside your apartment and also own a very large set of binoculars?

Rawr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123615277#Comment_123615277

«This Alehjandro fella probably learned from that experience to stop naively bringing anti-DPRK propagandists and other assorted messers on his group trips.»

This Alejandro fella…who you’ve totally never heard of before. Yes…

You’d think he would have learned his lesson, wouldn’t you? It’s a reasonable assumption to make, to be sure. But you would be mistaken I’m afraid. Oh so very mistaken.

Gather round Children! It’s movie time again, and while I saved «Friends of Kim» for a special occasion, tonight’s feature presentation is kind of its sequel, and quite an excellent documentary in it’s own right. If you watched Alejandro in that last video and wondered how block-headed he could become, do enjoy «The Mole».

2-parts at 1 hour each. It’s a gripping watch and worthy of a good drink beside you while you do it.

https://youtu.be/Sgq-_VNptSc?si=UUF0pyoVKywxbW7Q

https://youtu.be/xWl0LW4JTY8?si=8YBPs8wIqATnfyql

Gives a nice bit of context to the flag fight over on Reddit too. After watching this, you’ll have a very good idea what kind of person would put a N.Korea flag in the window of their Dublin apartment.

Lucien_Sarti

'The Mole' has just what one would expect in an intelligence agency (part?) funded hit job:-
BBC, MI5, CIA, an ex-criminal actor (??) and 3 to 10 years of lying and deception, not only to the ‘targets’ but to everyone else they encountered along the way from family members, to hospitable Koreans, to hundreds of Ugandan children thinking they were getting a new hospital.

On a web search for this video, the following come up:- 38North.org, nkinsider.org, bbc and multiple times -various anti-DPRK fan clubs online ie. the ones at the Daily Mail level of haircuts, ripped jeans, AA guns, gulags etc.

It is fairly clear that de Benos had seen enough red flags from Mr Mole to bring out his bug detector (and pretended it didn’t detect the two microphones Mr Mole had on him- maybe that was only to spook him). Due to the ability to edit film, we have no idea at what point in time this incident happened.

So after this point, it appears the filmmakers on one side and de Benos & Koreans on the other side were only trying to extract information and/or money from the other side.

Overall, I can see the ideological appeal of this film to certain groups but it is impossible IMO to take anything in it at face value (especially given the sheer number of cameras both open & secret).

In the end Ulrich comes across as a sad figure, probably with serious mental health problems – which if you know anything about CIA/MI6 is exactly the type of person they seek out to use in their plots.

On the more serious issue of arms sales –
Given the top 10 arms exporters in the world, does this imply you are opposed to all arms trade or is it a selective opposition?

csirl

Why did North Korea copy Texaco's branding when designing their flag? Is the country sponsored by Texaco?

Rawr

And so….quite neatly….you all get to see the mentality of the KFA and those who share a similar mindset. The point of sharing «Friends of Kim» and «The Mole» to you all was to acquaint you with a mindset that would conflate reality in order to frame a Dictatorship as something else.

Right on cue, we get another example of reality conflation. Alejandro Is shown repeatedly to be a pathetic figure who repeatedly uses the pronoun «we» when referring to North Korea, as if he is an actual member of the government when he is really nothing of the sort. A man desperate for a sense of importance.

Alejandro does indeed pull out a bug sniffer which serves as the cliffhanger ending to Part 1 but then (spoiler) it turns out that he just wanted to show off his spycraft credentials to a man who he didn’t realize was actually spying on him…until the very end. It’s clear that he had no idea what the The Mole really was.

I would be surprised if Alejandro was ever trusted with trade duty again after that. It must be clear to them now that the word «Idiot» in «Useful Idiot» has more weight with him.

A KFA member or similar would do their damnedest to reframe that trainwreck of a person it something less…tragic….and sure enough that’s what we see.

csirl

Who's Alejandro? The vast majority of people outside DPRK have no idea who he is .

Rawr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123617962#Comment_123617962

Alejandro Cao de Benos. Overall President of the «Korean Friendship Association», and essentially a self-styled «Dear Leader» to an organization for people in the West who just love North Korea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alejandro_Cao_de_Ben%C3%B3s?wprov=sfti1

He features as a central character in the videos I previously shared.

He is the very model of a Useful Idiot on a power trip thanks to his patronage from Pyongyang.

Rawr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123617945#Comment_123617945

Every little helps…..to land your family in a labor camp….

(Edit: Arg…I read that as "Tesco". My bad…not sure Texaco even have a slogan to base a tasteless joke on)

Lucien_Sarti

This guy is better at articulating what I believe about the US empire hostages publics conventional wisdom beliefs about Korea; the video is captioned “How we got tricked into hating North Korea”:

He has some good lines; summary :-
If you live in ‘the West’ – you know nothing about Korea (emphasis on N*o*t*h*i*n*g).

Most Koreans that could, tried to flee from the US occupation zone to the Workers Party of Korea liberated zone during 1945-1948.

Syngman Rhee- the ex-pat lay-about hatchet man hired by the imperial mafia to batter the unlucky sub-38 parallel Koreans into their new imperial subjugation. Then - the rehiring of the Japanese Kempeitai [secret police] trapped in Korea at the end of WWII - was way worse than if Fine Gael re-hired the black ‘n Tans in 1921 to learn everybody what the new Free State was going to be.

A recap of the American war 1950-1953.

The pure black-hearted, malevolent evil of the 2.5 year US bombing campaign which happened after the US imperialist ruling class couldn’t get their low paid ‘troops’ to sacrifice more of their lives for corporate profit (ie. steal all of Korea).

He even says something nice about the UN’s ‘hopeful goodness’ in 1950 – But I can’t agree with that! The brutal attack on Korea & the creation of Israel were the UN’s unforgivable original sins. Anyway, no two people agree on everything!

The people of the DPRK will NEVER forget the bombing AND the weapons of mass destruction – both chemical and biological - used against them; it is inter-generational and forever.

And related -a comparison between the endlessly violent, bloody US foreign policy since and the entirely peaceful DPRK foreign policy.

Since the US/UK/F can’t defeat Korea now or ever – all they have left is :- lame cartoonish slander of the DPRK. Hence haircuts, ripped jeans, AA guns, gulags..

——————
I think Irish people will have to be shamed into copping themselves on vis-a-vis their ‘nothing-to-do-with-me’ gullibility in accepting the ongoing criminal-imperialist narrative about free-Korea since 1945.

If you can effortlessly see through the lame hasbara narrative on Palestine (since the British attack on that Ottoman Empire region in 1917) and the West-Brit imperialist-sympathy-narrative shoved down peoples throats on RTE/Indo/I.Times during & after the troubles, why can’t you see the exact same thing in relation to Korea?

Something to consider...

Rawr

Jesus….you do get that posting a TikToker with the same anti-West bias you employ isn’t really going to do much here?

Also punctuation the N*O*T*H*I*N*G in «Nothing» does really do at much at all either.

Here’s the thing; (and again this is for the benefit of anyone else reading, because I know there’s little point in de-converting KFA members in your current mindset) students of history and geopolitics are encouraged to take a holistic approach to looking at the development of nations or conflicts. That means a good student has to consider variables from all different angles, from the good to the bad and also each side in a conflict.

I have covered before that South Korea started off life as a pro-US Military dictatorship. In fact it was that way a good few of them early decades of the state and various crackdowns of civil liberites did actually happen. It wasn’t until we get really late into the Cold War that Seoul starts to democratise properly.

Is it suprising that I rail on the South now? Shouldn't I unconditionally support South Korea and speak about the current president as if they were a demi-god amoung morals? Nope…because that would be bloody insane, nations are human inventions…and they are flawed. South Korea has plenty wrong with it, from corruption, to mega-rich family corporations mucking about, to all kinds of social issues…but they got one thing right…they are an actual democracy. If anything their democratic system has shown us, not that long ago, what a system with functioning checks and balances can look like. Corrupt Presidents have been stopped by the will of the people and also impeached for any crimes they commit.

What I did there is what a healthy perspective of a nation looks like. You take the bad and the good and you weigh them.

When it comes to North Korea, KFA members and other assorted anti-West at all costs absolutists will zero-in on the good and nothing else. Almost to a comic degree. There is a pretence that every single thing that Pyongyang has cooked up is greatest thing since sliced bread and that the prison camps (which we can see from space by the way) are not what they are. But is there any good in North Korea? Can I practice what I preach here? I think so. Despite the political cult that saturates their nation, North Koreans for the most part are also just regular people who want the same as anyone. They want to be fed, feel safe, find love and live an alright life. The fact that any of them manage this at all is admirable. It is somewhat a testament to human will.

That is part of why I despise the Kims and what they have done to North Korea. It’s these poor hard-grafting souls who have to put up with a system designed to keep that one family and their friends at the top of a wasteful pyramid of hubris focused on one man. One man who gets to do what he wants because going against him at all is seen as betrayal of the state.

Meanwhile, in the South, the Presidents are held accountable and like in a state that deserves the title «Republic» it is the people themselves who are Sovereign.

TheValeyard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123651863#Comment_123651863

This guy must be a big fan of you.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123651863#Comment_123651863

Have you ever travelled to Korea?

Rawr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123652843#Comment_123652843

Is likely waiting for the ban on non-Russian Westerners to be lifted. Then might soon be on their way to sample the legendary Air Koryo burger and get on the next curated tour of Pyongyang.

Just be sure not to muck about with any propaganda signs in the hotel, or piss off Alejandro if he’s with you…otherwise none of this OTT pro-North Korean stuff being posted here will insulate your from the…. «consequences»

Lucien_Sarti

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123652843#Comment_123652843

Not yet, hope to one day.
Did you ever spend the night in Dumshanbo?
And if you didn’t, how can you know what it was like if you were never there?

Lucien_Sarti

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123652562#Comment_123652562

Its inaccurate to characterise this as anti-West bias;

I do have deep contempt (far more than they have for me) for the tiny Western ruling class - who in modern times take the form of capitalist oligarchs. Of course, contempt is not a nice thing but in their case, it is an ineffectually minimal form of the consequences they should be given for their non-stop infliction of suffering on the world.
The weird thing – weird at the species level – most people seem to not even think there is a ruling class. Many do, but they don’t really say it openly.

Above is a holistic approach. Btw, all wars are class wars that the ruling class inflict on the majority:- both wars to maintain dominance and inter-imperialist rivalry.

The notion of a gradual, noble democratisation process in ROK is yet more sanatising of a brutal class conflict. It was the people -the public- of ROK that forced the end of open 40 year dictatorship in the 1980s. That is the only reason there is a slightly more tolerable form of US occupation there now.

I can remember seeing the standard no-context 30 second footage clips on RTE of riots from ROK in the early 80s. Those riots were like nothing else I’ve seen on TV from around the world since – they felt more like scorched-Earth civil war than riots at protests.
For context, the puppet state slaughtered 2,300 – 3,000 citizens for disobedience in Gwangju in May 1980 – the last major mass-killing of the open dictatorship phase of US occupation.

That is part of why I despise the Kims and what they have done to North Korea. It’s these poor hard-grafting souls who have to put up with a system designed to keep that one family and their friends at the top of a wasteful pyramid of hubris focused on one man. One man who gets to do what he wants because going against him at all is seen as betrayal of the state.

In other words, you believe the CIA “great man of history” theory, which I’ve already shown is as clueless for geopolitical analysis as thinking that the film American Pie is an accurate representation of typical teenage life in the USA.

Do you really believe that what is in the mainstream news about N.Korea is at face value, unbiased, honest, accurate and factual?

Rawr

Do you just glaze over what I write and wait for the chance to thrown in your «CIA Propaganda» skuttle? Well…I did say it wasn’t for you. The KFA & Co. decide what you feel about this kind of thing after all.

So the Kim’s cult of personality is somehow a CIA op in concert with the Main Stream Media. (Or Lame Stream Media…am I right? Nudge-nudge…see what I did there?) But the CIA are doing a surprisingly good job at making the North Koreans present that idea to the world themselves via their own news and actions.

Ironic with the American Pie reference, since that shallow analysis is exactly what would get a person discounting the actions of the rest of the world as some cloak-and-dagger shadow-play of some elite ruling class…rather than the complex dogs-dinner that the world actually is.

Of course I wouldn’t expect that level of introspection from anyone who believes that Juche is anything more than repackaged plagerised hokum pretending to not be a copy & paste of European socialist ideas.