North Korea General Discussion.

junkyarddog

That Hotel is now the equivalent of taking a turd and rolling it in glitter!

Rawr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123598487#Comment_123598487

Indeed. And the thing about it (which is a general tradmark of North Korean propeganda) is how repetitive and tedious it is. The Americans are imperialists, the North Koreans are idealic peace-loving people who never invaded anyone, the Dear Leader is greatest thing since Sliced Bread…which he also invented…right after he single-handedly punched a Japanese tank into the sun by sheer force of his awesomness.

Actually…I kind wish the propeganda was as outlandish as that, because it would make it interesting/fun…but after following it for years is just gets tedious. Fair play to the South Koreans for carrying on with a relativly normal life with all this f*ck-wittery happening north of their border.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123598620#Comment_123598620

The last time I was over there I was speaking to a South Korean geologist who was really saddened by the fact that she couldn't go into the north of the country to see any of the mountains there first hand. Could only look at them from afar.

Really stuck with me and not something I ever thought of, you've people who literally can't go and visit half of their own country.

Rawr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123598643#Comment_123598643

North Korea sits on some of the most striking and beautiful parts of the Korean Peninsula. Impressive mountain ranges and Mt. Peaktu itself a ginantic volcano sitting on the Chinese border which has cultural value in Korean mythology (both in the North and South).

It is an awful pity that these gifts of nature are locked behind this totalitarian state, and fairly often even denied to the North Koreans themselves if they do not have permission to travel freely around the state (that right is reserved for certain "classes" of individuals.)

Lucien_Sarti

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123598643#Comment_123598643

Koreans can travel abroad – covered already
Korea doesn’t ban citizens from occupied Korea from entering. Its the South that bans their citizens from traveling North.

If citizens from the North enter the South they are imprisoned for months – terrorised by the NIS who try to carrot & stick them into speaking out against the North. The rewards vary from big to enormous for lying about the North (the most famous being Yeonmi Park).

Those that retain their integrity and don’t sell out have this experience:-
Here is the video of the citizens who were abused by the NIS and are trapped in Seoul against their will.

There are laws in occupied Korea that you can’t say anything positive or even neutrally positive about the DPRK.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-67540211.amp

Overall, the Korean topic is basically a narrative battle, so I am very, very surprised the BBC ever concede any ground to truth or reality when it comes to Korea.

Suckler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123598126#Comment_123598126

But since Korea is run by normal, empathic, decent people -they prioritised state resources first on resolving the gravely urgent hunger, food & trade problem in the country (which they did resolve);

No one with an interest in any "normal, empathic" discourse could write this about North Korea with any semblance of understanding of the place and it's history.

Rawr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123599481#Comment_123599481

It’s good old-fashioned ideology-washing. North Korea run contrary to wider Western World and its allies. Therefore, the North Koreans themselves can do no wrong. It’s kind of like what we are encountering over on the Russian threads with people being pro-Russia for the simple reason that they are anti-West / anti-US. The rest of the moral argument is ignored for the sake of that ideology. Crimes are forgotten, or worse, excuses are made from them.

We even get to the point here where the human rights abuses in North Korea are being reframed to become “NIS-influenced lies” from North Korean defectors.

Another thing to bring up (since she’s been mentioned a couple of times) is Yeonmi Park. My sense of her is that she is actually a dubious source of information from North Korea and her case hasn’t really been helped when she started falling down the MAGA rabbit hole. She’s now one of MAGA’s poster-children for the arguments against Socialism…while conveniently leaving out the bit where North Korea’s problems is the totalitarian single-party dictatorship, and not the flavour of politics it pretends to have.

Yeonmi Park is an example these KFA types will bring out to try to blanket-discredit all defectors from North Korea. So keep that in mind if the name is wheeled out again. The physical evidence of what North Korea have been doing to prevent defections is also stark. Park herself is dubious, but there are many 1000s of stories from these people who escaped which are real. The tragedy of a North Korean defector is that often they will stuggle in South Korea. They do get some help from the South government, but the dramatic change in lifestyle and separation from family can lead to crippling-depression in many cases. Although some do manage to get through the difficult early days, there are still many who don’t and South Korea need to do better to help them.

It is reprehensible to victim-shame such people, to claim they all lie, and to post videos from North Korea friendly channels as “proof”. One should feel shame. (But I suspect one will not)

csirl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123599250#Comment_123599250

How come North Koreans dont visit Ireland? We dont lock up or torture anyone! Surely if North Koreas were allowed to travel, some would come here? WWe've also got loads of students from all over the worlld, but none from North Korea.

Lucien_Sarti

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123599611#Comment_123599611

Tomás Mac Giolla brought a group of DPRK tourists to Ireland in the mid-90s. They went on a seisun and pub crawl around Clonmel. That old video came up on my social media feed a few months ago.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123599627#Comment_123599627

Can you share that old video?

Esel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123599627#Comment_123599627

Probably having a whale of a time on superdollars (top quality counterfeit $100 bills attributed by some to North Korea).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Superdollar

Lucien_Sarti

Not easy - but I Found it;

https://vm.tiktok.com/ZNdftGQrD/

Manic Moran

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123598487#Comment_123598487

I don't know, I'm kindof enjoying it. A bit like watching those 'seconds from disaster' videos. I'm wondering why, and who they're trying to fool, but it makes a change from the pro-Putin posters on the Ukraine thread. Speaking of, what's the opinion of our Pro-Kim chap on the events in Ukraine and the participation of DPRK troops?

The bit about the DPRK choir in Ireland is apparently a return reciprocal. In 1990, Séan Garland, a former senior figure in the Official IRA and president of the Workers’ Party, hooked up with the DPRK ambassador in Denmark and arranged for a trip by some Cohmaltas folks and an RTE crew to enter North Korea.

https://www.rte.ie/archives/2020/0319/1124114-cursai-in-north-korea/

The Irish were not given any flexibility in their travels or who they spoke to, but the trip overall seemed to be positive enough that a return invitation was extended to the DPRK singers which they took up in 1992. Not that I would consider one trip in over three decades to be an indication of a booming tourism trade, mind.

Rawr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123599915#Comment_123599915

The question of "who they are trying to fool?" in an interesting one to consider when it comes to North Korea supporters. I think in many cases, (and likely with the example we currently have access to) it's less about fooling anyone and more about convincing themselves of an adopted world-view. The North Koreans have made a nice little reality-bubble for themselves, and I think that actually appeals to some of these people.

The other type of person you'll also encounter are Korean Friendship Association (KFA) members. KFA people often fit into the first category I mentioned, but sometimes have that added motivation of wanting to be lionised by the North Koreans themselves for being one of those few foriegners who openly support them. So these types will daydream of a Bullsh*t guided tour of Pyongyang while being celebrated by that regime…but in the meantime will scream to the rafters about "Imperialist Puppet CIA Monsters!!"

In that particular case the people they are probably trying to fool are the North Koreans…and maybe themselves.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123599250#Comment_123599250

'250,000 Koreans are studying, working or holiday in China every year'

That's your 'proof' that North Koreans can travel? A quarter of a million of them travelled to China, from an overall population of 26.5 million?

Don't make me laugh. Not even 1% of the total population.

Cordell

Let me tell you how it was in the place I grew up: travelling was indeed permitted providing that: you were upstanding socialist citizens with good record, you had family that were left behind, and/or you had connections within the regime. Fulfilling these conditions granted you a passport and permission to leave. Not coming back implied trouble for your family and for anything left behind. If you were leaving normally you were leaving with a group, for tourism, study or business reasons, and that group had at least one secret police agent. You were getting a secret police record where you, your friends, colleagues and relatives were interviewed and they would almost every time tell if you were thinking of not coming back.

But to outside people it looked like we're free to travel.

Rawr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123601850#Comment_123601850

North Koreans do travel, but with caviats as Cordell above outlined so expertly.

Most of the time North Koreans don't travel overseas…they are sent by the state to work elsewhere to bring back hard cash. This was often in the form of logging camps around Siberia. Essentially little pockets of North Korea which were being contracted by the host state. North Korean contractors can randomly appear whereever they can get away with it, but not without some form of minder from Pyongyang. Escape from this will almost certainly spell doom for the worker's family, which is why single men are very rarely sent out.

The other thing to consider is the route network of Air Koryo and the amount of services into Pyongyang. Only Bejing and Vladivostok currently have international services into North Korea, and only with Air Koryo (connections by rail are also done, but again, only 2 options there). So not exactly a globe-trotting bunch…unless you count what laughably counts as their "Intelligence" Service (But I'll save that rant for later)

thatsdaft

Travelling to Russia or China as slave labour to work for nothing (dear leader gets the earnings) while your family is held as ransom is not freedom

Edit; typo

Lucien_Sarti

… a totallitarian dictatorship like North Korea…

… No one with an interest in any "normal, empathic" discourse could write this about North Korea with any semblance of understanding of the place and it's history…

… We even get to the point here where the human rights abuses in North Korea are being reframed to become “NIS-influenced lies” from North Korean defectors…

I think nobody here would link to, defend or say they believe any Radio Free Asia article about human rights in Korea. Because everyone knows that that is a CIA / NED cutout which makes up allegations out of thin air (always using anonymous intelligence sources so is simply war propaganda) then publishes them (and this in turn is then laundered into big western media titles).

Similarly, when any international organisation publishes reports alleging human rights abuses in Korea but uses sources like

• RFA, 38 North, Daily NK, NK news etc
• ‘defectors’ that have been very carefully selected from the NIS kidnapee prisons process ie. only those that willingly exaggerate or lie about conditions in Korea
• ignores kidnapees from the NIS prison system that confirm there are no human rights abuses let alone horrific, systematic ones

– the credibility of those reports is still zero because the source for 75% of it is the US government and the other 25% is their willing US/ROK collaborators.

I don’t believe any exist - but if anyone knows of a DPRK human rights report whose allegations don’t ultimately track back to the US government, can you link to it.

This whole Korean human rights fraud is particularly hard to stomach when the US government was responsible for the slaughter of 2 to 3 million Koreans under the guise of war 70 years ago.

Human rights accusations coming from the US government.
Who takes that seriously any more (or ever did)?

TheValeyard

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123604706#Comment_123604706

Congratulations.

You win bullsh1t post of the day.

North Korea is a despotic run hellhole.

Huge human rights abuses and a people firmly crushed under the boot of Kim's dynasty.

silliussoddius

Would George Galloway tankie this much for a sh1t regime?

Rawr

«Everyone knows…»

It’s an awful lonely world view to inhabit isn’t it? One would like to share it with others, but when it is done in public the reaction is awkward politeness (until they can get away) or open ridicule.

«Everyone knows…»

If only other people would just read the same sources. Then they’d share the same world view surely.

«Everyone knows…»

Or maybe one can just pretend. Claim that ‘everyone’ is on your side on this, so that you don’t feel so alone in the bubble. Everyone knows….and I am not alone in this..

But the truth for North Korean supporters, and it’s a truth they know themselves, is that they are alone. The North Koreans themselves would give them the time of day, but that’s just because they find them to be Useful….Individuals

The KFA would count them a friends…but that’s not real friendship. Waver in the slightest from Alejandro and you’re essentially out. What does that leave you?

Everyone knows that you should treat humanity with dignity and respect, and not champion those who would abuse it of their own selfish ends.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123604706#Comment_123604706

Have you ever tried talking to any defectors from the North who now live in South Korea? Get it from the horses mouth if you're so worried about CIA influence?

Last one I spoke to was an ex North Korean soldier who managed to burrow his way under the DMZ fence. Was shot at while he tried to get across.

Really honest, lovely man. Was genuinely delighted with how he was treated when he came across.

You could clearly tell talking to him that he'd come from the type of country we've all been told about. Very different type of person to your standard South Korean. Really reserved, soft spoken, hint of PTSD. He was still a bit afraid to say anything too negative about the regime in the North.

You still haven't responded to my post about North Koreans travelling by the way.

csirl

Lucien_sarti

If DPRK is such a great plsce, how come loads of people dont want to live there? Surely if it has 109,000s of free houses and is so great, it would have a growing Irish diaspora and would be a vibrant multi cultural country?

Lucien_Sarti

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123604908#Comment_123604908

Yes, I would like to talk to him.
The first question I’d ask him is why all the drama (burrow his way under the DMZ fence)??
Why risk crossing at an unauthorised crossing point (on a tense closed border).

When off duty, why not travel to Dandong (China) across the open border, take a cheap train ride and a short plane trip and start living in the ROK?
What did he say of his NIS detention. Did he manage to avoid it?

You think 1% traveling outside the country is too small a number to support that they're free to travel abroad.
Whats there to answer?

Lucien_Sarti

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123604945#Comment_123604945

The main reason people don’t want to live there I imagine is – every time the US/ROK does their military exercises – the DPRK has to go to into full war mobilisation mode. This happens 2 or 3 times every year, I think. Unlike China which is huge area, a small area country can’t be as relaxed about major US military exercises.

Its a normal country. Countering war propaganda isn’t saying its a great country. Eg. It will be many years yet before everyone has modern housing.
If the US & its vassals called off the war, I imagine more people would live there like the thousands that live & work in China & other places.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123604959#Comment_123604959

It's pretty simple logic really.

If less than 1% of people leave the country (which you haven't disputed) then these are the privileged class in the country.

250,000 of 26,000,000.

Half the population of Dublin in a country with a population over five times the size of Ireland.

Some poor soldier working the DMZ doesn't fall into this category therefore won't be able to leave and needs to find other means.

Lucien_Sarti

then these are the privileged class in the country.

This is the first I’ve heard of a privileged class - I don’t know what you are referring to.
Are you suggesting the DPRK is a replica of the hierarchical class structure of Western countries.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123605066#Comment_123605066

Who said there wasn't? Dictatorships have a privileged class of people, what do you think a dictator, generals and cronies are?

You're tying yourself in knots now.

So do you dispute that 99% of the population can't leave the country?

Lucien_Sarti

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123605073#Comment_123605073

The Juche version of socialism has taken on board all of the mistakes & errors learnt from the Eastern European socialism experience. It is why it is so solid – everyone in the country is treated equally (within resource restraints).
If China has a narrow difference between rich & poor (compared to say, the EU), then Korea is significantly more equal than that again (ie. it didn’t follow Deng's path). So no, there is no small class that has vastly more privilege than the majority.

Yes, everyone in the country can leave just like 100% of Irelands population can leave.