Civil servants told to spend more time in the office - Irish Times - Mod warning #526

Gusser09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123121106#Comment_123121106

This 100%

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123121091#Comment_123121091

TBH, I never understood their lack of engagement during the two years of intense consultation that went on across all departments that resulted in the formulation of the current Framework.

I have very, very, low expectations of the public service unions, after that.

Sonics2k

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123120615#Comment_123120615

Absolutely go with the 5 days remote. Aside from my current health issues, it's just down to logistics.

I live technically about 20 minutes away from where my office is, but you can be damn sure when I was going to the office it would easily take an hour or more each way down to the sheer volume of traffic, accidents and so on.

billyhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123121073#Comment_123121073

DSP are one of only a few that require staff in 2 days a week. Many others require their staff in for more. Revenue are still 1 I think but a complete outlier.

crinkley

NSSO are one until September, defence, education and environment are 2 to name but a few

NapoleonInRags

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123121076#Comment_123121076

Completely incorrect. Section 4.1 of the Framework copied below:

4.1
Every Civil Service Department and Office should develop and implement a Blended Working Policy in
consultation with local employee representatives through appropriate local fora.

Larbre34

Blah, blah, framework blah.

The Unions in the public sector are powerful. Maybe less powerful than they once were, but powerful enough nonetheless.

Its the dominant reason that reform of the Health sector has failed, again and again.

I'm not saying the Union intervention in this working time/loc issue is right or wrong, but it would be a strange hill for the management and government to die on, considering that a) there will always be bigger battles ahead, and b) the government is going to have to further incentivise WFH, across all sectors, if they want to have any hope in hell of getting near their 2030 carbon goals.

I fully expect both Departments under discussion here to be still working the pattern a year from now, that they are working today.

gameoverdude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123120426#Comment_123120426

It's really not.

noodler

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123121069#Comment_123121069

Or the sense of entitlement and outrage was disproportionate.

skidmarkoner

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123120071#Comment_123120071

You can't clock in from your phone in my department anyway, I don't know anybody across the whole civil service that can

skidmarkoner

Anyway this doesn't bode well, with the introduction of AI and now core departments mimicking a trump move it just screams thinning the herd methods to me.

angel eyes 2012

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058392591/civil-servants-told-to-spend-more-time-in-the-office-irish-times

How does wfh encourage more diverse backgrounds of people working in Departments? Any evidence to support this assertion and why is this a positive? Surely civil servants should be hired on a merit based system of recruitment, representing fairness and equality.

herbalplants

I work 2 days in the office and I can say 100% they are my less productive days without a doubt.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123121735#Comment_123121735

Civil service is largely Dublin based. So if you want to work there you need to live in Dublin or be already there. Living in Dublin is expensive. So a lot of people can't afford to live there.

Allowing wfh opens up job opportunities around the country.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123121269#Comment_123121269

Should being the operative word. But as I said, the Unions didn't bother engaging, and quite honestly, a lot of the staff didn't seem too bothered either. I was involved both in the consultation process and in developing the policy within my own department, and saw it for myself. That is why I am skeptical of this "show" being put on by the Unions now.

itsacoolday

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123120158#Comment_123120158

You are dead right when you say you sometimes take a nap on your office couch, and while you admit you post on boards while being paid to work, none of this affects your ability to do your job. Take as many naps as you want during the day, do the household chores, take the kids places….you will still have the ability to do your job.

A close neighbour and friend of mine works in the public service and as she admits herself, she always calls a spade a spade and is great crack, she gets little to nothing done since wfh at the start of covid and loves the flexibility it gives her. She has lots of time for her hobbies, chores etc, and every chance she gets in the summer she is sunbathing outside and is always well tanned. At least she is not stressed, a stressed employee is a bad employee.

billyhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123121960#Comment_123121960

Her boss is responsible for giving her the work because she doesn't sound the type to go looking for it.

Necro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123120749#Comment_123120749

Union strength, primarily. Same union that's about to ballot members on this issue.

Necro

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123121949#Comment_123121949

It's like everything imo people don't care about these things until it actually might affect them, and then it's too late! I'm not WFH now but have done in the past so have seen both sides, if it's changed it won't matter a jot to me but I do know that some (not all) are most definitely taking the piss while WFH.

Half the problem with the claimed issues is managers simply not managing.

Not calling people back in if they're abusing the privilege or need extra training being the main issue. Definitely very prevalent from my experience

Covidhaveago

what are the NSSO doing?

RGARDINR

People need to realise as well that Revenue closed Mount St and Lansdowne Road offices. Most staff went to O'Connel St. So not sure where these staff would be told to go when they hot desk as such when there in the office so where will they be put if told they come in more if that happens. It's also weird you might have an anchor day in the office and you pick other day when to go in but other staff members might not be in that day so I do think what's the point being in them days as you will need to communicate on Microsoft teams or the like which would be the case at home. If in more days it will affect more people not in the civil service, more traffic on the roads, more people on buses, more on trains so more then likely your car journey into and out of your non civil service job might take longer so you have less time at home, you might end up standing on a bus as less seats and same on trains and darts.

purifol0

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123121735#Comment_123121735

LOL.

Apart from the fact that the civil service own rules prevent doing just that in favour of hiring and promoting women and only women, the CS and indeed the entire public sector is already vast majority female. Its nearly 80/20 female/male and there are still quotas in place for more.

In an interview if two candidates score the same, the female is given the role. That is the official rule passed in 2017

"The merit based approach of ‘best person for the job’ will continue to apply. However, in such cases, where candidates who compete for Top Level Appointments Committee (TLAC) positions are of equal merit, then priority would be given to the female candidate "

https://www.gov.ie/en/policy-information/fd9c03-civil-service-renewal/?referrer=https://www.per.gov.ie/en/civil-service-renewal/

Frost Spice

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123120617#Comment_123120617

It's a good argument for working from home. Some offices have too many distractions.

In my job now, we've no choice but to be productive. Reports on productivity constantly on the go. I'm ok with going in two days a week (which is what I do) but absolutely no more.

ledwithhedwith

it’s not in our contracts/circulars ffs. It is what it is.

exiledawaynothere

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123122312#Comment_123122312

that sounds like discrimination.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123120749#Comment_123120749

Maybe they don't want their own performance measured.

..or they just don't want to do the job of measuring performance, more likely.

Flinty997

Unions been very quiet in recent years. I agree with others, if they don't stand up on this, the falling membership will turn into a torrent.

skidmarkoner

I agree but posting on reddit won't get action time to get the finger out contact your rep

itsacoolday

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123122378#Comment_123122378

"too many distractions in offices", says you? As someone else said the reason many like WFM is because there are far more distractions at home - tv, neighbours and friends calling for a chat, collecting kids, doing house chores, sunbathing, taking a nap, home gym, shopping , reading, parcel deliveries, washing to be hung out, posting on internet forums etc. And less chance of people looking over your shoulder.

So anyone's argument of "too many distractions in offices" is weak one given everyone knows what goes on. Some people are naturally lazy, lots of people have other priorities for one reason or another. I have seen it first hand. Manyana.

purifol0

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123122441#Comment_123122441

Its discrimination based on legally protected characteristics of gender, this used to be legal anyway but turns out it everyone's ok with it once it happens to men!

In fact the EU is pro this type of misandrist sexism and we have a bunch of laws saying that if Ireland doesn't start being even more misandrist by 2026, they'll issue fines!

itsacoolday

I wonder do people think there is any correlation between the considerable rise in the number of people watching daytime television and the rise in the number of people working from home?

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123122523#Comment_123122523

Its not rising its falling.

"..Ofcom announced the biggest decline in broadcast television viewing (AKA people watching live television) since records began. This decline is now not just happening with younger viewers, but also with older viewers, the demographic we mostly associate with daytime television. Given that audiences don’t tend to catch up with daytime shows via streaming sites, this is bad news for their viewing figures…"

"…Last year daytime TV took a hit with ratings and as a result, Channel 4's lunchtime talk show Steph's Packed Lunch as well as long-running BBC soap Doctors were axed."…"..Daytime TV viewership has been on the decline for some time now…"

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123122506#Comment_123122506

Your theory is people WFH in Ireland are distracted by all the sunbathing, in the middle of Winter. That's not even plausible in an Irish Summer. LOL.

Username "itsacoolday" :)

gmisk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123122207#Comment_123122207

Currently 1 day a week in office but from September moving to 2 days a week in office, it has not gone down well.

Bluespecs

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123119943#Comment_123119943

That's a disgrace

runawaybishop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123121229#Comment_123121229

DSP want to move to 2 days in office minimum across the board - there are many sections/teams in DSP who are in the office far more than that, even when they had the 1 day minimum requirement.

TheSunIsShining

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123122312#Comment_123122312

That policy:

1. Is for TLAC posts and
2. Only comes into play if the Management Board in question has less women than men serving on it.

Alonzo Mosley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123122575#Comment_123122575

Happy days, now someone might answer the phonelines now !!!😊

Gusser09

All of the indos articles on this are free to read. In other words not paywalled.

They have always attacked the civil services and try to create a private v public divide. Scumbags.

Thats what they are doing here again. The articles are biased with zero balance.

Id urge fellow public servants and private sector workers to avoid such inaccurate and false reporting. Cancel indo subs.

Its not a private v public battle. Never has been. Workers in all sectors should unite on this one.

Flying Dominos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123122575#Comment_123122575

Is there any consequences if people don't meet the minimum number of days in the office? Does the system know the difference between a clock in from home and a clock in from the office?

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123121735#Comment_123121735

WFH has transformed opportunities for people with disabilities to get and retain employment.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123121293#Comment_123121293

What health reforms have been blocked by unions in the last twenty years please?

Wouldn't you think those powerful enough unions would have been able to do something about their members consistently working dangerously illegal hours?

https://www.irishtimes.com/health/2024/04/02/junior-hospital-doctors-still-working-too-many-hours-and-lack-adequate-supports-says-imo/

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123122312#Comment_123122312

Where did you get your 80% female data from? The last data I can find was 59% female in 2020, so I've a feeling you've made up this statistic.

You also failed to point out that the 'priority' scenario that you outline only applies to;

• TLAC appointments - the highest level Assistant Secretary and Secretary General appointments, so a tiny handful of overall Civil Service posts
• In Departments where the existing TLAC posts are not gender balanced - a particular problem that needs to be addressed

It only applies where candidates are assessed as being equal on ALL other grounds.

I suspect you could count on one hand the number of cases where this priority rule was applied.

purifol0

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123122701#Comment_123122701

Yes it's sexist/misandrist. The CS is already vast majority female and they made another rule to get more women into the top of it.

You don't have a problem with that, but if the genders were reversed the whole world would be decrying it

crinkley

why isn’t the whole world decrying that the gender pay gap in the civil service favours men, even though according to you they are discriminated against

purifol0

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123123010#Comment_123123010

LOL inexcusable misandry.

My data is taken from the same source every journalist has used for the last ten years

The IPA Public Sector Report.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123122713#Comment_123122713

Get with the times.

No one in my department uses a desk phone anymore. We answer our "phones" on our laptops via Skype for Business or Teams.

So it makes no difference if someone is in an office location, or at home.

purifol0

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123123035#Comment_123123035

The gender pay gap?

Are you saying that different jobs should pay the same?

Or are you in favour of the way misandrist govts around the world simply add up all the pay in a company and see how much of it is given to men v women and refuse to take into account that men work more hours in different jobs.

That was rhetorical. We already know the answer. You misandrist.

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123123035#Comment_123123035

Because there isn't a gender pay gap. Pay rates are rigidly structured by grade and increment. There's no scope to pay one person doing their job more than another based on gender or any other factor.

Ezeoul

WFH has transformed opportunities for people with disabilities to get and retain employment.

THIS ^^

I have also seen a reduction in incidences of sick leave on my own team, whereby if someone has a cold or bug they work from home instead of bringing it into the office.

I myself have worked full time from home while recuperating from a surgery, where without the facility to WFH I would have had to take a couple of weeks sick leave, as I couldn't drive. But the fact that I could log on and work away meant much less disruption for me, my team, and no backlog for me to catch up on after weeks off!

I am 100% in favour of WFH, and I totally understand the frustration of staff in DSP or DoF (or NSSO) at being asked to increase to 2 days a week now.

But, I don't see how (within the current framework) the Union can do anything other than delay these increases from happening. WFH is discretionary and was always granted / refused based on the work being done, and not on the person doing it. Arguing that it staff don't want to work more days in the office will not cut it. However, I do fully agree that the depts involved should have to account for and justify why there is a need for an increase.

Hopefully I'm wrong (and I hope I am!) and Fórsa actually do earn their subs on this one! But I am not optimistic.

StormForce13

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123123079#Comment_123123079

Would it surprise you to learn that the customer doesn't really give a fukc where you are or what technology you're using, just as long you answer the bloody phone?

tarvis

While WFH could be a boon to parents with families - reducing the child care hours and travel times to and from work it can’t be much fun for those who are single and living alone.
They move to a city or town, find accommodation and then work where they sleep and eat- no chat, no craic, little mentoring no new faces and barely registering on the minds of the management -

I fear the benefits of WFH are not for everyone, It will not promote lasting good practices and when reflected upon in the future the minuses will far exceed he pluses.