Civil servants told to spend more time in the office - Irish Times - Mod warning #526

LastApacheInjun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123120114#Comment_123120114

I suppose it depends where you work. I cannot speak for other civil service departments.

I have had underperformers pre-covid and post-covid. While they weren't the same people, I didn't find that the underperformers were worse at home. In fact, I found it a little easier to focus on outcomes, rather than on how late they were working or whatever.

I had someone abuse the flexi-time system in the past. He would clock in at 8am, go for a shower, breakfast and a walk, and then arrive at his desk at 9.55. He'd block out 8-10am in his diary for the next day, every day, so people wouldn't put a meeting in. Then he'd delete the diary entry after it had past every day. So for four weeks I came in every day at 8am. I took screenshots of his diary and photos of his desk every day. After two weeks I put in a daily catch up at 8.15. When he objected, I showed him the screenshots and told him that he was not at his desk for those two hours. He's still a workshy f&ck, but he doesn't abuse the system anymore. Every subsequent line manager has been warned about him.

ELM327

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123120079#Comment_123120079

What is wrong with doing errands or kids drop off or whatever during day time? Once you're doing your job (or booking your hours, if hourly paid) accordingly there isnt an issue.

I do this above, sometimes twice per day. I sometimes take a nap on my office couch. I post on boards when I'm thinking about a problem. None of this affects my ability to do my job. Now I also sometimes start early and or stay late for projects or calls or proposals etc.

If I were in office I'd be doing my core hours only. No errands during the day, so no start early and no finish late or after hours stuff. Enforce monkey rules get peanuts. Treat people like adults and (unless and until proven wrong) you foster morale and increase productivity.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123120150#Comment_123120150

The problem with these guys is that they wouldn't be 'that' much more productive if they were forced into the office. A dosser is a dosser no matter what. Arguably, this might be be more of a problem with recruitment and selection ; if total skivers are being hired, perhaps the recruitment system itself is not working as effectively as it should.

dazzler101

I WFM and I have double the output as when I'm in the office. the office has too much politics, and people gossiping about the smallest things.

I currently do one day a week, but moving to three days soon a week in a new department. one of my colleagues does half the work I do, and in the office full time yapping away all day. and not aloud to work from home.

Its very subjective on the person, it should be aloud if you can prove your hitting your targets, obviously offers better work life balance and isn't that the reason people join the civil service.

Done right, in specific roles, WFM is ideal. and now we have the technology to make it happen. parking is a massive problem in gov buildings, so is emissions, public transport etc, traffic.

Most of my mates that work in private sector can work from full time, bar maybe a odd day in the office.

SuperBowserWorld

I would say the tendency to doss in a job where you can't be fired is a lot higher than a job where you can be fired and where you job can be easily transferred to India and/or machine learning (avoiding use of term AI here).

And nobody cares because you didn't get an amazing severance deal from a large multi national. So, lose your job at Facebook + huge severance deal, national news story and fake drama, Lose your job at a small company. Nobody cares. Lose your job in the Civil Service ... ahhh doesn't happen.

Which I guess my point is ... why is the Civil Service more special than anywhere else ?

Answer: because they can "shut down the country".

cute geoge

Surely the biggest problem some of these jokers are in the cs with donkey's years with their self entitlement and are untouchable to boot.

To make matters more difficult for managers they now have an entitlement to work until they are 70 and you can be sure that it will be these jokers that will hang on mostly.

LastApacheInjun

Whatever you might think about whether WFH is of benefit to a company or not, it is a benefit to the employee, as part of your overall benefits package. Amending the terms of a WFH arrangement, e.g. changing the requirement from 10% to 30%, is a change in your terms and conditions. Terms and conditions are not just your written contract, they are widespread ways of working as well. It is exactly the same as deciding to reverse a pay increase. In the civil service, changes like that have to be negotiated with a union, which they have decided not to do in the Department of Social Protection. Perhaps emboldened by the recent WRC decision on hybrid working - which, they should understand was very much decided on the facts of that particular case.

I'd be willing to strike over this, and I'd imagine the majority of civil service workers would feel the same. And I wouldn't be striking just for myself. Letting the government start to wind down WFH for civil service staff - the largest cohort of employees in the country - will automatically have an effect across the private sector too. It'd be for all employees to try and protect the WFH gains.

Kaisr Sose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123119943#Comment_123119943

This is not work, it's work avoidance. Working from home could not be less productive than this

If you are being honest about your daily office routine, I wonder what your role and work load is, and question where the managers are.

Edit; Just seen your last post. The explanation does not excuse your avoidance but explains it. You really need to consider if that job is really for you. Life is too short and your working day too long to be in a job that makes you feel that way. Your work avoidance strategy is also not fair on your colleagues. Most workplaces are team environments.

Get Real

They should leave the option of WFH imo.

But, equally as the entire civil and public sector pay agreements etc are now done on a "one fits all" basis, or another example post 2012 it's a one pension system. I think they need to change that.

Split it into two. Those who WFH and those that can't. Vast majority of civil servants benefitted form WFH. And that's a good thing. But equally, for many, nothing changed. And those people didn't get a pay increase to reflect same.

Clearly, WFH is worth something. If in 2019 you had two civil servants, both HE0s on 60k. One gained the benefit of WFH and the other didn't. Now the one that benefitted the last 5years is understandably annoyed they might have it taken away.

However there was no consideration given to the heo who's had to come in the past 5.

Or staff who gained WFH but nurses or prison officers can't.

So I'd propose some calculation, a 45min bus commute each way. 1.5hrs a day free time lost. Approx 8 hours a week. So WFH, keep it, keep the pay scales. And naturally any pay agreements that come in for the CS and PS as a whole apply to everyone.

But immediately, there should be a 20% increase for non WFH pay scales where attendance is mandatory.

There is a value to an employee in working from home. Whether they're private or public sector. Be it cooking dinners, saving commute time, dropping kids off/picking kids up, even having a nap. You can't hire two people on the same money, give one a role that's WFH and one that isn't, and say that's grand. If WFH wasn't a clear benefit to people, they wouldn't mind moving back to the office. So pay should reflect accordingly those who can't WFH.

LastApacheInjun

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123120312#Comment_123120312

I'm not sure they'll ever do that. I mean, it's clear to most people that frontline workers should be paid more than civil service office staff, but unions have always resisted a two tier system. It's ridiculous.

JobTalkBoards

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123120308#Comment_123120308

we have regular deadlines and targets to hit. What should they do when we all hit these targets and deadlines? Tell us they don't like how we did it?

Some of us are trusted with payroll data, legal data, health data, budgets. If they don't trust us to get the work done our own way, they shouldn't trust us with that data to begin with.

Quitelife

Hopefully someone tells them to do some work and not squander tax payers money as well !

StormForce13

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123119859#Comment_123119859

And you know this for a fact because you overheard two auld ones chatting about it at the bus stop while you were on the way to the post office to pick up your jobseekers allowance.

magicbastarder

my wife is public service rather than civil service, but they've had a policy of three days per week in the office for quite a while now.

Mrs OBumble

It's difficult to see why there are many civil servants who are not public facing.

StormForce13

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123120222#Comment_123120222

1. Employer-Union agreements should be honoured by both sides.
2. If there is a firm agreement about WFH then it should only be changed by negotiation. And, if the agreement was subject to conditions then we need to know what these conditions are and whether both sides are abiding by them.
3. Are there agreed sanctions for employees who can be shown to be abusing the WFH privilege? Are they enforced?

FWIW, I'm an ex public servant who isn't keen on PS Unions, but on an issue like this I would have no problem whatsoever in taking industrial action if it turns out that the employer is in clear breach of the agreement.

dory

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123120426#Comment_123120426

So….I take it you've never worked in the civil service?

As for WFH, they need to make it the same for all Depts. Annoying if some are one day , some are three etc.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123120434#Comment_123120434

I have extensive civil service experience. Mostly in organisations of 1000+ staff. Typically 50-80 of us in non customer facing roles. The rest, is over 90% in customer facing public offices of field work.

Pre automation ( think like PMOD), huge clerical officer workforce were needed. They aren't now.

con___manx1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123119810#Comment_123119810

Why ? People should work from home as much as possible. It's better for the environment and work life balance. Look at what's happening with the weather in Ireland and around the world. Can only see it getting worse.

Foggy Jew

A couple of observations.

1. There have always been malingerers in the Civil Service since its inception. Malingerers will malinger whether in an office environment or working from home.

2. When Covid hit first, those non-malingering civil servants stepped up to the plate and they continued with the business of keeping the country going. For the vast majority of civil servants, working from home was a new experience, which I'm sure brought its own challenges, yet they put their heads down, and all services continued to be provided. They did not exercise their power to 'shut down the country' as alleged by @SuperBowserWorld (what a ludicrous statement that was).

Working from home became the norm and people adjusted their lives around the concept. When the Covid crisis was over, people were happy to come back into the office, but in a hybrid way. There have been huge differences in the way WFH is being managed by different Departments. Some allow flexi-time to be accrued whilst working from home. Others don't. Some Departments insisted on 60% in-office days, others didn't specify a minimum number of in-office days. So I could be one of the lucky ones, being able to work from home 4 days a week and working up flexi-hours from home. Or I could be not so lucky, and work in a place where I was required to come into the office 3 days a week, and not have the ability to work up flexi on my two working from home days.

I see Fórsa have instructed civil servants in Finance and Social Welfare to continue working the pattern they have been working, and to disregard the instruction that they should come into the office for at least 2 days a week. Fórsa should also address the inequities between different Departments.

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123120194#Comment_123120194

Maybe people stressed to the max working for private multi nationals would actually benefit from their employers acting a little bit more like the civil service?

The issue here is with those private companies. It benefits them to keep everyone on their toes at maximum output and worried about their jobs. They're the ones you should be directing your ire at.

And hey, if they don't change, then just come over and join the Civil Service. It's great. 😁

BrianD3

I'm not surprised by this, what does surprise me is that it has taken this long to start. I thought everyone would be back 5 days per week by now.

There are more than enough dinosaurs in senior positions in the public service to scupper WFH. Covid is becoming a distant memory and the fact that there is a "review" mentioned in the programme for government is ominous.

So I'd say this is only the start of it - unless it has started already and just hasn't been publicised. I would expect the likes of the HSE and County Councils to lead the way on ordering staff back to the office. it's about the only thing they're capable of leading on. Back to fax machines, printing emails for the file, printing letters and memos and having them sent back to you by "teacher" to do again with required changes in red biro. Something something cyber attack, something something GDPR.

InvisibleInk

I feel sorry for the staff at Dsp, they are being led by donkeys. It's clear the management layer are stuck in the 70s civil service and don't trust their staff. That's what this is about. You are just a number not a valued employee.

Frost Spice

I worked in the public sector, and socialising is what caused loss of productivity. Extended coffee breaks and extended lunches.

SuperBowserWorld

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123120468#Comment_123120468

I'm saying regardless of covid or working from home, you can cause a lot of disruption, so that's why it's a news story. Also, you can't really get fired. So, it's a strange kind of power. Maybe I'm ignorant of the can't get fired aspect, but I'd say it's very rare.

Gusser09

This is about the only issue i will strike over. 2 days a week is plenty. They can fcuk off after that.

I forsee a ballot and senior " management" rowing back.

All middle and junior staff should be in the together across the sector and refuse.

I. Reilly

what would you choose between 5 days/week remote work and 4 days/week office work?

JobTalkBoards

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123120550#Comment_123120550

Years back we used to go out for breakfast as COs every Friday and watch the POs have breakfast in the same place. We'd watch them and whenever they went to leave, we'd leave first. So technically we were following their lead.

Longest breakfast was over two hours. Usually went for at least an hour.

crinkley

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123120615#Comment_123120615

remote working no brainer for me because of the commute, my partners office is a lot closer than mine and she came from a 4 day job, she said she'd keep with wfh over the 4 day

screamer

All comments about working or not aside, it has been far more difficult to get any level of service from the civil service since they all moved to working from home, was always hard to get a ohone answered but it's ridiculous now