Civil servants told to spend more time in the office - Irish Times - Mod warning #526

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123137980#Comment_123137980

You have demonstrated your unwillingness to keep an open mind at every step in this thread. Even now, with this sentence, you are doing it again.

You are of the opinion that Civil Servants are harder to sack than private sector employees, yet you have produced nothing to show us why you hold that opinion. No facts, no data, no stats….nothing, just your own made up friends. You then say that you are willing to change your mind if the statistics support an alternative view.

This is the opposite of an open mind.

It means you've already made your mind up without knowing those statistics and you have the cheek to chastise me for not keeping an open mind. I'd bet serious money, also, that you wouldn't be willing to change your mind if the stats didn't back you up, but so far you've refused all efforts to provide those stats. It is painfully obvious you haven't the foggiest about how easy or difficult it is to sack anybody in the civil service. You're just repeating stereotypical nonsense from the last millennium because that's what you were always told, and inventing makey-uppy managers who told you a load of lies to bolster your own argument. Again, not something associated with an open mind.

You're tying yourself up in knots here. You're all over the shop.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123141022#Comment_123141022

No idea where you getting that from.

Do people prefer going into an office to queue for their driving licence,tax their car, renew a passport? Says who? Do people use online services less. When did that happen? I've no wish to take a day or half day queuing for stuff.

The vast majority of people I work with are not in the same building, county or country. I've never met them. Most of the people I work with and my colleagues I've only know for a year or two. I'm my experience is simply how good are you at communicating and communicating using technology.

Like the person who never answers their mobile or replies to txts vs the person who always get back and with concise and brief replies.

Look at the same few in this thread are unable to stay on topic. I give you uncle colm.

https://youtu.be/LwwFTvzRyug?si=U5V4SbqHB8On_9ZY

Papagei

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123141077#Comment_123141077

Do you actually think it's not more difficult to sack someone in the public sector?

I've provided studies, you've provided nothing.

ledwithhedwith

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123141055#Comment_123141055

I hope you are right! I don’t think we will go with the 4 day week because of the optics and everyone already calling us lazy, but as I say I hope you are right.

SodiumCooled

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123140898#Comment_123140898

It should be a right though, I would really hope we should aspire to it being the norm in future to have at the very least hybrid but fully remote should also be common for many (not just in the public sector but in the private too).

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123141039#Comment_123141039

Yes when I was a contractor. It was a condition of me taking the contact.

ledwithhedwith

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123141153#Comment_123141153

I think it should be either in your contract or not. I don’t think an employer should have to facilitate it if they didn’t in the first place. I’d hope the ones that are crap with wfh suffer though haha

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123141022#Comment_123141022

If business requirements are changing the way I think they are for the civil service, there will be less working from home.

They're not, though?

I mean, if people want more availability/longer hours from civil servants, that's actually an argument for more WFH, not less? Or you want buildings kept open longer, lit and heated, with security provided, for some staff to be available to answer phones, when they could be doing that from home? Not very efficient. Or eco-friendly.

It is OPW policy that blended working is here, and here to stay, and that's what they're basing all office accommodation on. This has been the case for five years now. No new office space acquired will cater for max staff headcount, because the OPW is assuming everywhere will have blended working and/or hot-desking.

I don't know where your assertions are coming from (higher turnover, "maintenance of culture" is harder when remote (and most people aren't remote, anyway, they're blended)). My whole section had an in-person all-hands last week, semi-useful. But organising it was a nightmare. Eventually we got a day that suited most people, bar those on leave. But we'd people sharing desks before and after, because our office doesn't fit all the people! Simply ridiculous! And catering for that "all hands should be in" day meant inadequate cover in the office on other days.

ledwithhedwith

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123141177#Comment_123141177

which is great, sadly we don’t have any guarantees for it from what I can see anyway.

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123141141#Comment_123141141

I never made any definitive claims. I don't have to provide anything because I have nothing to back up. You did make a claim, however, and have dodged every attempt to get you to back it up, so far.

Plus, I've already answered that question, are you actually able to read and parse information? Why are you ignoring everything that has been said to you? It looks like you're deliberately ignoring the points being made because you cannot answer them.

You haven't provided studies on anything relevant, I'm afraid. You yourself admitted that you don't know the stats and would be willing to change your mind if they showed a skew one way or the other.

So, for the umpteenth time, you think it's more difficult to sack someone in the civil service………………why? For the sake of clarity, I'm not asking you why it's more difficult to do it. I'm asking you why you think it's more difficult to do it. You must have some reason for coming to this conclusion, now-abandoned imaginary friends aside.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123141185#Comment_123141185

The problem is though, when the next pandemic happens, the Government can't suddenly decide that it ACTUALLY IS POSSIBLE to get the work done with staff WFH.

Yeah Right

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123140931#Comment_123140931

If a dept wants their staff in 5 days a week they have every right to do that.

No, they don't. And they can't just click their fingers and go "right, everyone is back in 5 days a week from tomorrow". Not without causing a furore they can't. Hence the emails from the Unions, which is the reason for this thread.

If you make an agreement and then renege on it, there will be pushback. This is true across the entire professional world.

ledwithhedwith

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123141276#Comment_123141276

true that, interesting with the tech companies that forced their staff in 5 days a week, what did they do storm days? **** if I’d be working haha

ledwithhedwith

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123141279#Comment_123141279

yes they can. It’ll take a while as I’ve said but of course they can. We have been guaranteed nothing in the long term. Absolutely nothing. Show me a contract or circular that guarantees wfh and I’ll happily and gladly eat my words.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123141190#Comment_123141190

Firstly, it isn't phone/email contact with the public I am talking about, it is the reversion to pre-2020 norms of in-person contact which is becoming apparent.

Secondly, the solution to the problems you mention about inadequate cover on other days is to reduce the amount of WFH, exactly as I have said is happening and will keep happening. The point is that all the WFH arrangements are subject to business needs and those business needs are changing, as you have seen.

Thirdly, that the OPW is behind the trend isn't that surprising.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123141328#Comment_123141328

Firstly, it isn't phone/email contact with the public I am talking about, it is the reversion to pre-2020 norms of in-person contact which is becoming apparent.

Ah, right. Yeah. "Pre-2020 norms of in-person contact". I think you mean 1920? I mean, I honestly can't remember the last time I needed to physically go in to a Revenue office… well, not since I finished working there, around the turn of the century. (Almost) everything is online or over the phone, because that's what the public want and is far more efficient for everyone concerned!

Seriously, people don't want to have to go into a city centre (assuming they have offices in every town and city, in the first place!) in order to queue, and sign something on paper, that then needs to be filed and stored somewhere. You really want queues down the stairs and out the door at local social welfare offices? Calling in, in-person, to renew a passport?

The world moved on, long before Covid, you seem to have missed it.

the solution to the problems you mention about inadequate cover on other days is to reduce the amount of WFH

Yeah? Where. Do. They. All. Sit?!

the OPW is behind the trend

The OPW is far from perfect, but providing office space for 60-80% of a workforce is hugely more cost efficient and cost effective than providing office space for 100-110% of a workforce.

SodiumCooled

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123141022#Comment_123141022

I don't really buy the whole "it works better in established teams". Not talking public service in particular but in general these days teams tend to be spread across multiple locations anyway so are rarely all together anyway regardless of WFH. The wider team I am on has people on other sites, people fully remote, people hybrid and people who come in everyday. People have come and gone and I could count on one had the number of times we were all together and it makes little difference.

The company my wife works for closed their offices completely, the vast majority kept working from home after covid with only single digit numbers of people going in any more than a day or two per week. The company saw no benefit in keeping paying for offices so closed them and everyone went fully remote - from now on all their new hires will be fully remote etc so that company certainly see doesn't buy into any of the guff about people being together in the office.

I do two days at home per week and that is the absolute miniumum I am willing to do, I would happily never go to an office again if a suitable job comes along that is fully remote but 5 days a week in the office I won't do again.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123141328#Comment_123141328

"In person contact"

Not everyone is public facing.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123141449#Comment_123141449

Never said they were, just that the demand for public facing is increasing. It may not fully reach 2019 levels, but any rise will have an effect on WFH.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123141480#Comment_123141480

the demand for public facing is increasing.

No. It isn't. You're just asserting something, without any evidence.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123141480#Comment_123141480

This sounds like you think all the public facing staff have the same wfh rules as those that aren't, and that every time someone works from home there's front desk closed.

Maybe you think the security guard has to work the same office hours as the accounting staff. Or if the it guy works from home the the front desk is closed.

I don't get it.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123141598#Comment_123141598

In my experience a lot of paper in person processes were long over due to be digitised and the lockdown finally got those done.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123141669#Comment_123141669

That isn't what I am saying at all.

If demand for in-person services increase, the requirement for staff to work in-person increases. That doesn't mean all public servants are affected, it doesn't mean everyone has the same wfh rules, it just means what I said it means - less wfh.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123141797#Comment_123141797

If demand for in-person services increase, the requirement for staff to work in-person increases.

If demand increases? A while ago you were saying demand had already increased. It hasn't! If anything, it's going the other way. You continue to present no evidence whatsoever for your assertion. Where are you getting this from?!

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123141797#Comment_123141797

Less WFH for those who don't have it. Quite the anti logic.

billyhead

If there are workers WFH who are taking the proverbial and not getting pulled up for it by their boss I say all power to them and I would love to know where you could sign up for these jobs

itsacoolday

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123142060#Comment_123142060

A lot of public servants who have posted on this thread have a similar attitude, and for example have expressed support for someone wfh who is also not only looking after her own kids at home but someone else's kids as well.

I have spent long enough working in the public sector to know it is nearly impossible to get fired, no matter how poor the work rate or productivity. Even people with severe addiction issues (one person I know is a lazy alcoholic, yes there are people like that) keep their jobs. Billyhead, if you are really looking for a job where you can take the proverbial, I would not recommend the private sector because there your co-workers and bosses will not tolerate that because they do not want to go out of business. Hundreds of thousands of private sector employees have lost their jobs over the past few decades, no joke for many people. Some people would have loved the opportunity to work from a cushy office with a safe pensionable job, with lengthy tea breaks, rather than emigrating.

halfpastneverr

My old department's public counters died a death after 2020. We used to have staff from our different units on call to come down and respond when a specific query about their business area was made. You'd have 5 or 6 rostered for that, plus another 3 or 4 at a smaller public counter taking in general filings, queries and stamping applications etc. We closed the big counter in March 2020 and had no demand for it to return when normality resumed. Emails, online contact forms, appointment booking slots on the website, phone helpdesk and secure drop boxes for paperwork proved far more popular than queuing up for 40+ mins on a good day.

The change led to less aggravation too, because said customers who queued that long would never be happy to be told they were in the completely wrong office or that their query isn't anything we could help with in the first place. You can tell them this via email or on the phone now, saving them a lot of time and needless hassle for everyone involved.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123142296#Comment_123142296

Some people would have loved the opportunity to work from a cushy office with a safe pensionable job, with lengthy tea breaks, rather than emigrating.

What was stopping them? Nothing to stop them applying for public sector roles, they are open to all.

Oh, wait, maybe it was the pay rates didn't suit them?

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123142296#Comment_123142296

A lot of public servants who have posted on this thread have a similar attitude, and for example have expressed support for someone wfh who is also not only looking after her own kids at home but someone else's kids as well.

Nobody has. We've laughed at your anecdote, because it's obviously bullshit. Isn't she also talking to neighbours (cos that happens these days), hanging out the washing, sunbathing, and doing 14 other things too? 🤣

I have spent long enough working in the public sector to know it is nearly impossible to get fired, no matter how poor the work rate or productivity.

And despite being presented with actual stats on this, you're still peddling the lie? You're just trolling at this stage. Badly.