Civil servants told to spend more time in the office - Irish Times - Mod warning #526

GreenTea777

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123139496#Comment_123139496

On top of that, what is wrong with collecting or dropping off kids during lunchtime? That is a ridiculous argument. I would recommend that the person (itsacoolday) who said that get a job in the private sector, work long hours, spend their entire life at work, and, even more, bring work home and do overtime. The reason some people choose the public sector is that they value work-life balance more than a higher salary. There is nothing wrong with that. It's a choice.

I have experience working in a big corporation. Nothing they said during the interview was true. Flexi-time was a joke. The hybrid option was only available if it suited them. I was told breaks were paid— all lies. I’d rather move to the public sector, have established working rules, and have a clear picture of real work-life balance.

littlefeet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123139004#Comment_123139004

Yes but your going in the two days that is the point, the memo or what every it was was is two days in the office.

Like a lot of these issues, the same with the private sector there are some who won't come in the two days and will even go to extraordinary lengths to WFH 5 day a week.

They are a tiny % but dominate the issue.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123139804#Comment_123139804

Can you provide a source to this claim of yours that a number won't come in for any mandated days? And which departments it is happening in as well.

Because that certainly is not happening in my Department, and I haven't seen any reports of it happening in other departments.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123139207#Comment_123139207

It's a pity people have to resort to blatant lies to try to stir up hatred.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123138473#Comment_123138473

Seriously? You chide others for not having data and statistics, but you've got absolutely nothing yourself?

Do you get away with that kind of extreme lightweight decision making in your private sector role?

littlefeet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123139849#Comment_123139849

Seriously when you getting support for most of your point from me.

My point is that 99% of People do what they are suppose to do but in every situation both public and private you get a tiny % who thinks it's all about them.

Sorce 35 years of working.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123139951#Comment_123139951

I'd like to know where you're getting your "facts" from.

Because on every point they are contrary to my actual experience.

Source: 37 years in the Civil Service.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123139083#Comment_123139083

 Some public sector workers on this thread have defended this, saying a nap during the day helps them concentrate

Who defended this, and where? You're just making up more ****, now - and no doubt this false memory will make it into your bank of "I heard somewhere" stories.

Can you stop with your repeated list of things people WFH are supposedly spending all of their time doing? It's just boring and trite at this stage. Nobody - WFO or WFH - spends 100% of their time working productively. Some of the distractions are different, some are the same. You're posting to boards during working hours, after all, presumably from an office. While you were posting that, someone may have spent 5 minutes emptying a dishwasher. Big swing. I spent 20 minutes of one of my "in office" days yesterday walking to and from an in-person meeting in a different building…

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123139207#Comment_123139207

Its a pity people cannot really get fired from a civil service job.

So you either missed the post pointing out that civil servants can and do get fired; or you're deliberately ignoring it, in order to lie.

Which is it?

Flinty997

Considering reporting doesn't work. The ignore feature is useful to filter out people who deliberately won't stay on topic.

WFH can usually be withdrawn if abused. Why an organisation would withdraw it from people not abusing it, with no investigation or evaluation. Suggests it's got nothing to do abuse or performance at all.

littlefeet

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123140159#Comment_123140159

Well what do you think it's about? Because very few to no one gets to the top or near the top with out having something thing about them or as my husband says, the cream and the scum always rise to the top, so its unlikely they are doing it just to annoy staff.

somenergy

Reading Some of the comments here.

I think we need a department of efficiency with a Musk type leader

Rocket_GD

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123140320#Comment_123140320

Such an efficient department that it requires 2 leaders, Musk and Vivek Ramaswamy 🤦‍♂️

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123140268#Comment_123140268

I think there's enough obsolete thinking and fear of change in across key management and leadership that they just want to return to old ways of working. Regardless of any issues it causes.

Tbh yes causing conflict as a means to force an issue is common in industrial relations disputes .

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123140320#Comment_123140320

Will the department rely on huge public grants to survive, like the Musk type car company?

Flinty997

Very noticeable last few weeks in the middle of heavy workload how being in the office shortens the working day because people are unavailable due to commutes, and are constantly dragged off task due to unscheduled meeting and work when in the office.

Every mandatory office day blows a hole in the schedule, and chops hours off people availability. You have to plan around it.

Yes pros and cons to everything. Different jobs suit a different mix of in office, hybrid or fully remote.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123140320#Comment_123140320

Not sure the shareholders of twitsX would agree with you. Chopped half the staff and half the value of the business. Billions.

Hotblack Desiato

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123139849#Comment_123139849

And even if it were true, so what? Getting the job done is what matters. Ticking a box of "x days in the office, for no actual reason" achieves nothing useful.

ledwithhedwith

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123140438#Comment_123140438

what conditions did you sign up for? That’s the crux of it from wfh. Not guaranteed in an employment contract or a circular, zero power for us. Sadly.

TaurenDruid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123140450#Comment_123140450

The conditions I signed up for have been changed many times over the years. Some of those changes were negotiated with unions, some not. Some benefited me, some didn't.

With WFH, the genie has been let out of the bottle, and it's not going back. What, I can be as productive, if not moreso, from home, with no daily 2+ hour commute?! Saving me time, money, and stress? Yes, I'll be having that, said thousands of workers, public and private sector.

Yes, there are some dinosaurs/people with vested interests in commercial property, now vainly trying to force it back, but it's too late. I'll never work five days a week in the office again, for no good reason. (And before the troll starts repeating the list of things they think I do all day while at home, that's obviously not to say I won't have some weeks where I am in the office five days, when it's actually needed!)

Anyway - it's nearly lunchtime, so I'm off out for a run! In the sunshine, rather than after dark and I'm too tired after a pointless commute!

cute geoge

I dont for one minute believe Forsa will fight this bar a few token soundbites .

Some years back the government closed down a local dept office, over 50 staff transfered them all to other different dept offices within the county and basically told them 'take it or leave it' if they wanted to keep their jobs they had to toe the line.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123140450#Comment_123140450

WFH may not be a guaranteed right or form part of the general terms and conditions of service, but every civil servant who WFH has to go through an application process via the NSSO and the details of their work patterns are stored on the NSSO website.

I'm pretty sure if I looked through my inbox I would find a copy of my written WFH agreement (which details number of days per week WFO, what days, and the location - as well as WFH days and location) that I was issued by HRD in my Dept when my application was approved and finalised. I can also check these details on NSSO website.

If DSP / DoF / NSSO want to increase the number of days WFO or amend their policies now, there is scope within the framework for them to do that. But they have to follow the procedures that were put in place for doing so. Every single WFH application of those affected will also have to be revisited.

They can't force increases on staff arbitrarily without giving a reason, and with little notice, the way they attempted to do.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123140529#Comment_123140529

I have no faith the unions will do to much. Which decimate their membership going forward. Which will impact future negotiations.

I wonder how many contractors and consultants this will also drag back to the office. Or even outsourcing.

ledwithhedwith

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123140625#Comment_123140625

yea I did the same and it’s an annual agreement?

ledwithhedwith

People missing the point, they can do what they want regards wfh and that’s the long and short of it. I’m currently doing 2 days but if I could sign a contract or agree a circular so something is actually set in stone I’d take 3. I fear in 5 years we will all be doing 4 days in the office. You can harp on about you personally being more efficient blah blah blah , it’s not what you signed up for. It came out as result of a global pandemic ffs. Just come across like children acting like we have a right to it, we quite simply do not.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123140886#Comment_123140886

The WFH agreement can be reviewed side-by-side with the PMDS cycle now, but the same applies.

If there is no reason or business necessity to increase WFO days, they can't just increase them arbitrarily, and not with only two weeks notice.

ledwithhedwith

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123140925#Comment_123140925

I agree in this case of the notice. But at the end of the day the business case is very very simplistic. “Staff collaboration” in ya pop. If a dept wants their staff in 5 days a week they have every right to do that. Might just take them a while and they’ll do it day by day. You have previously said “WFH may not be a guaranteed right or form part of the general terms and conditions of service” may as well have stopped there. And what people expect the unions to be able to do I’ve no idea

blanch152

There are a couple of things trending against the WFH options.

Firstly, it works best in established teams who know each other from working together in an office. The further we go from 2020, the less likely that the civil service teams have stayed together, and turnover has become higher, therefore making the maintenance of culture more difficult as it is remote. That is driving the business requirement for anchor days and the team meetings.

Secondly, public demand moved online as a result of Covid, even teachers were working online. The anecedotal evidence suggests that public demand for call-in services has increased, and that the public want longer opening hours. That drives a business requirement for more staff in-house and less at-home.

If business requirements are changing the way I think they are for the civil service, there will be less working from home.

Flinty997

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123140898#Comment_123140898

Well I agree you it maybe withdrawn.

But it didn't start with lockdown. I've had wfh in various jobs years before lockdown.

But if was withdrawn any position that was reduced my commute or allowed WFH would be a big incentive to move. Also I'd be unable to be flexible with my time as I am WFH.

ledwithhedwith

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123141031#Comment_123141031

no but on the whole it pretty much did , I had 1 day wfh pre lockdown. Have you ever had a job where it was part of your contract? That is what I’d love to see. Haha. Look I hope to god the CS champion it and it will definitely reduce their costs, might even be able to hire some feckin IT heads where they can’t offer them similar monetary amounts , but this uncertainty around it is pretty crap. I wouldn’t feel comfortable say purchasing a house far away from the office.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123140931#Comment_123140931

I think I said in my first post on the thread, that I don't think the Union will be able to do anything other than delay the increase to two days.

But the union can absolutely hold them to the conditions that were written within the framework. A lot of time and work went into writing that document!

It was also part of the government plan that every civil servant should work at least 1 day a week from home, and I don't see 5 days a week every coming back. People don't want those jobs anymore, and hybrid is probably the only incentive the civil service has left, to recruit new staff.

If anything, it will move to a 4 day week, with 50% WFH.