We need to talk about Go-Ahead

mikeybhoy

So in the bus connects thread and online in general seems lots of people having a lot of issues with Go-Ahead operated routes. Me personally I have found there has been a real deterioration of service in the last few years on Go-Ahead operated routes.

I think the question now needs to be asked has the decision to put 10% of Dublin bus routes out to tender failed and the routes be returned to Dublin Bus whom despite their flaws provide a superior service. It strikes me that Go-Ahead are operating on thin margins whereas Dublin Bus seem to be far better resourced as an operator.

end of the road

it's what should happen but it won't because of the eu mandated bmo dispite PSO services not being a market in reality.
i have absolute sympathy for the staff on the ground who are trying to keep the show on the road dispite whatever issues are at play that are causing the problems.
GA management and the nta need to get a grip and sort it out.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058392489/we-need-to-talk-about-go-ahead

You seem to be missing a major part of this conversation. You seem to forget how bad DB and BE services got prior to GAI entered the market.

We had (still do but getting better) one of the worst bus services of any European capital city and that was created under decades of a DB/BE operated monopoly. Things were deteriorating and getting even worse prior to GAI entering the market.

GAI are so important because they were a kick up DB/BE's managements arse. They no longer had a monopoly and if they didn't improve their services and start delivering an actually good service, then they could lose even more routes to GAI or other operators. It broke their monopoly.

In fairness to DB in particular, they have since vastly improved their service since then and they are doing far better now, well done to them and all their staff. But arguing that we should hand them back their monopoly doesn't make any sense, if they have a monopoly and no competition, what is to stop them from sliding back into their old ways.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the issues GAI are currently having, they obviously need to fix them ASAP, just like DB had to fix their driver shortages problems over the last year. And perhaps more importantly they need to put in place policies so this or similar issues don't happen in future.

Now if you want to argue GAI's routes should be given to another operator like Transdev, Arriva, etc. then fair enough, but handing DB/BE back their monopoly makes no sense at all!

Breezer

Agree with bk. Do GAI own their depot(s) or are it/they State-owned?

davetherave

You say Dublin Bus provide a superior service, but comparing the reliability and the punctuality stats for Q1 and Q2 last year, (the latest available), GAI come out on top, it's not a huge difference but they do have better measurements. Getting a like for like service, comparing GAI's ODMA and Dublin Bus Low Frequency (Less than every 12 minutes). P1, P2 etc are 4 week periods starting Jan 1st, 2024.

Punctuality "on-time" is defined as a bus which departs from a bus stop not more than one minute early or not more than five minutes and fifty nine seconds late when compared to the scheduled departure time.

Punctuality	Dublin Bus	GAI
P1	65.70%	71.20%
P2	66.80%	68%
P3	66.90%	68.30%
P4	66%	67.80%
P5	65.80%	65.70%
P6	65.20%	68.40%

Reliability	Dublin Bus	GAI
P1	1.70%	2.8
P2	2.20%	2.1
P3	2.40%	1.4
P4	2.00%	1.4
P5	2.90%	1.8
P6	2.70%	1.6

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/publications/go-ahead-ireland-outer-dublin-metropolitan-area-odma-reports/

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/publications/dublin-bus-quarterly-and-annual-performance-report/

The Mathematician

Yes, that pretty much bears out my experience. In particular, I feel that Go-Ahead drivers are much more likely to wait at timing points and not leave early, which I think is a real game changer. I will agree that Go-Ahead has had a pretty disastrous last couple of weeks though.

I also feel that Go-Ahead have better drivers. Certainly speaking as a cyclist, I feel I am much less likely to be carved up by a Go-Ahead driver. Perhaps this is just a function of less time since training to get into bad habits.

Jamie2k9

Go Ahead will always be held to a higher strandard by the media, politicians, unions who then mislead lead the public. Race to the botton and the usual eye catching headlines!

DB, BE and IE are able to hide there abysmal service levels. I will say DB seem to have improved over the last year in my expierance (cancellations). BE spend the best part of 2 years failing to provide a full schedule of Waterford City Bus service under the radar. The reward was more PSO contracts. Only for the timetable mess by IE, they would still get away with poor service.

The private operations cannot be seen to be doing well when it comes to transport nor will they ever be called out for it.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123135422#Comment_123135422

Maybe the reason why BE are worse for cancellations is because their not serving Dublin. It's fairly obvious that the government don't give a fcuk about services outside of Dublin.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123132981#Comment_123132981

The issues with the bus service are because Dublin has some of the worst levels of traffic in Europe and bus lanes are limited hardly CIEs fault they don't make the decisions on these things. CIE provide a good service under duress from extreme traffic and chronic underfunding for public transport.

Doesn't make a difference if the service is a monopoly excellent public transport in Soviet Russia or Fascist Italy under Mussolini don't think there was much competition there. The best public transport is usually in Socialist minded countries not free market capitalist countries like the US.

The driver shortage is another excuse to flood the country with more migrants to undercut the Irish. Manufacture a driver shortage so they give out visas to more immigrants instead of training up Irish people to do the job.

bikeman1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123135580#Comment_123135580

What are you banging on about?

If someone comes here, and will safely operate the bus for the pay on offer, work hard and stick at it, then I couldn’t care if they are from the moon or wherever on this planet. They are providing a public service and I thank them for that. There is no undermining the Irish for that and I’m and Irish man fwiw.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123135606#Comment_123135606

Pay more offer better conditions and the Irish will do the job. Same way we managed in the 50s and 60s when all the buses were operated by CIE and all the drivers were Irish. All had conductors back then so dwell times were quicker better service all round . My granny will testify.

Burt Renaults

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123135634#Comment_123135634

People had fewer opportunities in Ireland in the 1950s and '60s. The drivers were mostly Irish for that very reason. It was far from a well paid job. We'd be lost without immigrants in public transport. Also, it's worth bearing in mind that our grannies' generation look back on those days with wistful nostalgia - not necessarily because things were better, but because they were further from their terminus. ⚰️

Like it or not though, pay and conditions across the industry need to improve. Not necessarily because the job merits high pay, but because of the basic philosophy of supply and demand.

john boye

You get arrested and thrown in jail for being an Irish bus driver these days.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123135552#Comment_123135552

BE commuter services serve Dublin and have you forgotten that just a few years ago they got so bad that a bunch of those routes were taken off BE and given to Go Ahead to operate because things got so bad!

Look at the horrific situation down in Cork City with BE over the past 4 months, where driver shortages have gotten so bad that they have had to introduce an emergency timetables which has cut some of the busiest routes frequencies significantly, some routes ending up with a shocking 30 minute frequency. 700 buses a week cancelled! And this this nonsense has been going on for years down in Cork!

Much worse then the GAI issues, yet I don't see you shouting for BE to lose their license down in Cork and their operations hadn't over to another company.

Personally I couldn't care less what company operates a bus service, public/private or where the driver is from, as long as they operate a good professional service for the travelling public.

mikeybhoy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123136791#Comment_123136791

And Go-Ahead were doing the same about 2 years ago using Saturday times during the week because of "driver shortages". The government which have destroyed the country in every area don't care about non Dublin public transport.

Because BE losing their licence will make the driver shortage magically disappear overnight.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123136826#Comment_123136826

Yes, those routes improved significantly after GAI took them over. BE had other significant issues then just driver shortages.

bk

BTW looks like the issues at GAI are already easing, yesterday just 38 double deckers didn't operate according to bustimes.org versus around 70 I saw last week.

RobbingBandit

N6 cancelled this morning I'm a disabled passenger had to walk from Collins Avenue to Beaumont podiatry appointment these guys need to be audited as they can not provide a reliable service which links Finglas and Ballymun areas to their local hospital. N4 by Dublin bus picked up the slack

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123136866#Comment_123136866

They are audited and as pointed out by the poster a few posts up, they operate a more reliable service then DB. The N4 is a great service that I use myself, but I've definitely experienced cancellations on the N4 too.

EDIT: Just checked the TFI Live App, saw that the next N4 was cancelled going west bound, while no current cancellations on the N2 or N6 in either directions. In fairness just one N4 cancellation, with it's high frequency not too big of an issue.

PeadarCo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123135958#Comment_123135958

The reason for the lack of bus drivers has nothing to do with pay and conditions.

It's been driven largely by the big push for public transport which in Ireland means buses outside a few areas. The number of new drivers hasn't kept up with the increased demand. Or by the sounds of it even thought about.

The other issue is that apparently it's very hard/expensive for those under 25 to get insured to drive a bus. So many school leavers do other careers/jobs when they first leave school and only start driving buses later in life relatively speaking.

Monopolies are not a good thing in most cases. If BE and DB can't manage buses correctly private operators should be allowed have a go. They haven't shown themselves perfectly capable of doing a far better job and without them public transport would be far worse off.

dfx-

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123132981#Comment_123132981

For a post supposedly not defending GAI, there's maybe just one line acknowledging their 'issues' and paragraphs about how DB and BE performed/perform or the old ways. Everything is referenced to DB or BE.

Are we now just stuck with them because there is no other private bidder? On what basis did they get the recent batch of routes? Are we going to continue to give them routes despite not being able to do it currently? Where's the incentive to improve..they have no competition.

The long stated 'truth' was that another private operator could operate routes better/cheaper than DB were if given the chance…and they are clearly not doing that.

It has got to be better than "they make DB better" or that it breaks a monopoly. That's no use to people using GAI services that don't show up.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123139524#Comment_123139524

In multiple posts in both this thread and the other one I've absolutely said that GAI currently have an issue and they need to sort it ASAP and they seem to already doing so with it getting much better versus last week.

But I feel like I have to defend them because it is clear the posters like you and OP have a political agenda. Private company bad, public company good nonsense.

I can clearly see the hypocrisy of how some posters shouting for GAI to lose the license, while the same posters were completely silent last year when DB were having severe drivers shortages or the current horrific situation with BE down in Cork.

If these posters weren't being a hypocrite you would be calling for BE to lose their license down in Cork for the terrible job they are doing or DB to lose their license last year when they were having severe driver issues.

I grew up 20 years using BE services in Cork and then 20 years of DB in Dublin. I know exactly what these companies are like, BE is dreadful and DB is just about barely passable, but much worse then the rest of Europe. So give me a break when I'm pretty disgusted when I see posters say we should hand them back their monopoly!

Of course GAI needs to fix this issue, just like BE needs to fix their **** show down in Cork and DB also needs to improve their reliability which is actually worse then GAI!

The travelling public deserves better.

Xterminator

The long stated 'truth' was that another private operator could operate routes better/cheaper than DB were if given the chance…and they are clearly not doing that.

so in this very conversation davetherave links & posts the official figures published by Dublin Bus and GAI, demonstrates the service offered is slightly better by GAI, and you tell us your own 'truth'? Is that like a donald trump truth, that ignores evidence and goes on your gut feeling instead?

if you look at the metrics provided by GAI and DB you will see you are wrong. They provide at least an equal service. P{lus by being an alternative, they make sure DB and other providers dont have a monopoly and cant fleece the NTA with the only quote for routes.

Dont forget when there is a strike - having different providers means the general public are not completley held hostage to the striking workers. I fully support the right of workers to have a dispute and withdraw their service from employers but at least with the multiple route providers, the trams, trains and other bus services should keep running if DB or GAI go on strike.

i never want to go back to the old days where Bus workers could hold the economy to hostage, where their was no oversight or sanction of poor service provision!

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123139524#Comment_123139524

Without getting into who's better DB or GAI I think you do raise a valid point.

If DB had a monopoly, services would deteriorate.

However we are all aware that the NTA do not want a monopoly. GAI know this too. Therefore they can operate a poor service with the comfort that they'll be kept around.

Maybe a third operator or more competition is needed to keep everyone on their toes.

Dub13

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123140086#Comment_123140086

One thing on the metrics, they can be manipulated. If a journey does not operate because a driver is out sick or no staff available then they don't effect this bus stop punctuality data. So all well and good saying GAI are a few % better then DB at hitting bus stop targets when the trip is on. But this is cold comfort to a passenger wating on a bus that is cancelled because of no staff.

The Mathematician

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123155172#Comment_123155172

The reliability figures above show that for that period GA were also more reliable.

beachhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058392489/we-need-to-talk-about-go-ahead

GoAhead was never 100% quality service from the beginning.Must be 75% now.Some routes 50%

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123155351#Comment_123155351

Higher quality service then DB per the published statistics.

LXFlyer

I think that it is fair comment to say that all of the operators have had atrocious statistics at different times.

DB had horrific statistics after the G Spine was launched for example, and BÉ had dreadful service delivery in Mayo and Sligo for an extended period.

The key is getting them sorted as quickly as possible, and if it is going to take time to resolve, then whatever about the optics, implementing a temporary timetable with reduced service levels that can be delivered needs to be done asap (as BÉ did recently in Cork).

People need certainty more than anything else.

Red Silurian

The main feeling I'm getting from this thread is that bus services aren't great but privatising them isn't the answer

Burt Renaults

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123155915#Comment_123155915

Thankfully, the services have never been privatised. The state (i.e. the NTA) arguably has more control over Go Ahead than Dublin Bus. Although DB, under its current senior management, seems to be falling into line. It was 100% necessary to bring in some kind of competition, force DB to raise its game, and it's fair to say that they responded really well (from the NTA's point of view, I mean). In the past, as a regular user of their services, I always got the impression that Dublin Bus existed for the benefit of its staff, as opposed to its customers.