Metrolink - Alternative Routes - See post one for restrictions.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123343222#Comment_123343222

I never said the NTA didn’t have legal responsibility?

As I have already said Bray and Greystones already have rapid rail transport in the DART services which is a hell of a lot more than DSW.

I never said Bray and Wicklow are getting a metro lol! The other poster brought bray and greystones into the debate not me.

I’m not against Bray or Greystones getting a LUAS or metro or whatever- but not before DSW.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123344714#Comment_123344714

And yet that Bray Luas line is actually part of the GDA Transport Strategy, while your SW Metro has never been mentioned in any plan, anywhere!

Per the GDA Transport Strategy, the plan for the SW is BusConnects corridors in the next few years and post 2042 is for two Luas lines, along with other new Luas lines around the city. That is apparently what the planners at the NTA/TII think is the best option. We are likely see an update to the transport strategy in the next few months, with the expectation being more detail on this expanded Luas network plan.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123344714#Comment_123344714

This was your line;

"So Bray and Greystones are in Wicklow and both have DART services."

Wicklow not relevant but you bring it up because that's how you think about stuff, not in terms of actual demand.

And once again, the DART hugs the coast. The majority of residents are not within 15 minutes walk of a station.

Anyway, the point was always that when were compare relative densities / employment and other demand drivers, you can't just look at arbitrary county borders. The "N11" or South East corridor encompasses existing major demand drivers and growing ones. In practical terms, the Luas extension to Bray is cheap because of what was there before & enables lots more growth but the fact it isn't possible because of existing demand is telling.

Given our existing deficit in connecting places of interest, we need to focus on things like that first.

IMO in order of priorities after ML / DART+ / Finglas Luas extension / Bus Connects that are in the plans, I see it as integral that;

• We provide E-W connectivity within the south city core as far out as the Canal. This should be in two lines, one heavy and one light rail. Lucan Luas fill ones of these, DART Tunnel the other. If one of these are Metro lines though I am all for it
• We relieve pressure on Sandyford asap enabling growth in the South East. Whether this is another Luas line via UCD (also important we connect this) or upgrading the Green Line to full Metro standard - getting the Luas to Bray is important
• Extend the Red Line to Poolbeg
• Direct connection for Blanchardstown to the City Centre
• Luas to Beaumont / Clongriffin
• Luas to Rathfarnham / Knocklyon

The GDA 2042 Strategy (pre and post) has the bones of these plans and in fact your Metro line mimics 3 of the Luas lines proposed. I'm fine with that, but it should be Luas and not Metro. What justifies Metro level capacity and cost imo is something E-W and connecting to Sandyford / Blanch (although Luas can do the job here depending).

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123346686#Comment_123346686

Well i was going to leave it but your now quoting my answers to other posters so ill clarify your incorect points for you:

This was your line;

"So Bray and Greystones are in Wicklow and both have DART services."

Wicklow not relevant but you bring it up because that's how you think about stuff, not in terms of actual demand.

you do realise I didn't bring up Bray or Greystones- that was you!!😂

And once again, the DART hugs the coast. The majority of residents are not within 15 minutes walk of a station.

So you agree Bray and Greystones have access to heavy rail which is what i said when you originally brought up Bray and Greystones.

Anyway, the point was always that when were compare relative densities / employment and other demand drivers, you can't just look at arbitrary county borders. The "N11" or South East corridor encompasses existing major demand drivers and growing ones. In practical terms, the Luas extension to Bray is cheap because of what was there before & enables lots more growth but the fact it isn't possible because of existing demand is telling.

I'm not against MORE rail lines for these areas, but areas with NO access to rail need to be prioritised.

I've already told you Tallaght have a population of 80K plus.

What might be news to you is Bray has a population of 33,512 and greystones only has 22,009 but both have access to heavy rail whereas a small area of DSW (Tallaght) only has access to an already at capacity LUAS red line and the majority of DSW has no access to any quality PT.

Given our existing deficit in connecting places of interest, we need to focus on things like that first.

Areas in Dublin with no access to rail, that currently have one of the highest (if not the highest) levels of traffic, should have high quality PT rolled out in that area.

• We provide E-W connectivity within the south city core as far out as the Canal. This should be in two lines, one heavy and one light rail. Lucan Luas fill ones of these, DART Tunnel the other. If one of these are Metro lines though I am all for it
• We relieve pressure on Sandyford asap enabling growth in the South East. Whether this is another Luas line via UCD (also important we connect this) or upgrading the Green Line to full Metro standard - getting the Luas to Bray is important
• Extend the Red Line to Poolbeg
• Direct connection for Blanchardstown to the City Centre
• Luas to Beaumont / Clongriffin
• Luas to Rathfarnham / Knocklyon

I'm not against any of these as long as they don't impact metro2.

You haven't addressed Clondalkin as far as i can see- which is absolutely chronic with traffic.

The GDA 2042 Strategy (pre and post) has the bones of these plans and in fact your Metro line mimics 3 of the Luas lines proposed. I'm fine with that, but it should be Luas and not Metro. What justifies Metro level capacity and cost imo is something E-W and connecting to Sandyford / Blanch (although Luas can do the job here depending).

That's your opinion and that's fine- but its also the kind of opinion that has us in the mess we are. We need to build infrastructure that has lots of excess capacity, not just adequate capacity.

This city and country are growing at a massive rate and we need infrastructure that will cater and be comfortable for the next 30 years not just be at capacity when it opens.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123345391#Comment_123345391

This thread is for alternative routes that we would like to see.

BK this is the line I would like to see as it makes sense for the area I live in which obviously is DSW and is an area of the city that has been completely forgotten in terms of PT- bar three BC corridors that might get built at some stage in the not so near future.

If I'm correct there is also a feasibility study promised into a metro for DSW as a proposal in the program for government is there not?

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123347257#Comment_123347257

And I'll guarantee you now, that it will find a SW Metro line not feasible and it will instead say that Luas line options will be the option we will go for.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123347281#Comment_123347281

ok but where do you put the at grade running LUAS?
There is no room for it unless the plan is to upgrade the BC QBCs (that we don’t have construction dates on and some are still in planning) to LUAS LINES?

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123347429#Comment_123347429

Yes, that is exactly what will happen. The BusConnects Corridors will be the first step towards this, once done we are going to see focus turning to upgrading them to Luas.

That is basically what the post 2042 Luas network shown in the Transport plan is, upgrades of BusConnects corridors to Luas lines all over the city.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123347483#Comment_123347483

Well that is absolutely crazy tbh.
We will be waiting years to get an over capacity upon opening, QBC built and then have to wait further (decades probably) to get LUAS built on those corridors which will also be over capacity upon opening at that stage.

Such a slow way of “delivering” PT.

I say “delivering” as I will believe these QBCs when I see them in operation.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123347709#Comment_123347709

I mean realistically when did you think a second Metro would get built?

Metrolink has been in ABP for two years and going nowhere. It unfortunately, likely faces years more of JR's before construction even begins!

Even if you decided to do a SW Metro, it would likely not see the light of day before 2050.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123347757#Comment_123347757

Well that is the reality and if we accept it we are in a seriously bad place.
Metro 2 plus the projects listed by @spillit67 should be getting designed and sent in to ABP asap.
Expand ABP to deal with all that and when the inevitable JRs come, run them through the new planning courts introduced by the last government.
With regards to PT we are decades behind other European capitals that have rich developed economies.

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123347990#Comment_123347990

Well priority number 1 is getting Metrolink, DART+ and BusConnects through "planning" (ABP + JR) and actually started construction.

They won't start seriously working on anything else until after all of the above is done.

Before that they can certainly do "studies" and update the development plan, but you would still be far off creating a project team, developing detailed plans and submitting to ABP.

You seem to be assuming there will be a Metro 2, but there really isn't any guarantee of that, at least not in our lifetimes.

It seems they think the next step is a network of new Luas lines around the city and that is most likely where their focus will be going forward. Designing those lines and then pushing them through planning and onto development.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123348125#Comment_123348125

It seems they think the next step is a network of new Luas lines around the city and that is most likely where their focus will be going forward. Designing those lines and then pushing them through planning and onto development.

Which imo is completely underwhelming when:

• We have a huge deficit in PT
• Need to planning for huge population growth in our cities
• Large budget surplus

If your gonna design an on street tram (LUAS) system to replace a QBC that doesn’t exist yet as it has spent ages in planning and some will go on to JR purgatory- why not just skip all that and design and build a metro with max capacity and future proofing?

It’s not a question of money as we have huge surplus.

How much money has been spent on QBCs for DSW+ add on the design cost for upgrading to LUAS, would that equal the cost of designing a metro2?

Id say it would come close

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123347222#Comment_123347222

Yes I brought up Bray and Greystones to illustrate a point. You came back saying they're Wicklow…which rather proves the point on how you perceive the world around you and demand.

What is this "so you agree" nonsense - inventing some conflict and a win for yourself?! Bizarre!

Now you are referencing the populations of Bray and Greystones as "news" to me when I already mentioned their population and growth. And yes, the combined population for both is now likely over 60k and will likely be 70k by 2030…but in your world they have no relevance to demand in the south east / DLR! Just to note…they have far more relevance than Tallaght does to Rathfarnham…Rathfarnham is backed up by a massive public park, golf courses and mountains!

In terms of M2 - I referenced Luas to the area you want Metro to but now you say you have no issue with that! You have consistently railed against Luas for that area demanding expensive tunnelling.

It isn't my opinion on what justifies a Metro line. You have referenced a CBA yourself at times with your around the houses Metro proposal whilst also simultaneously saying you haven't mentioned cost (which sort of contradicts the old CBA statement!). Let's be real, your proposal incl. Branches is getting towards 40k…that's double Metrolink. Metrolink at the low end at this stage will cost €13bn so we are talking about €26bn here for your plan. Let's just be serious for a moment.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123347257#Comment_123347257

It hasn't though relatively speaking.

DSW was sparsley populated until the 1950s.

In Ireland the only significant fresh rail laid down since Independence is Luas Cross City and the Red Line. Everything else has been built upon stuff built in the 19th century by private capital.

If you were to construct the DART actually in 1984, you'd have built it 2km inland from where it mainly goes in the south east, more akin to where it travels for much of its time on the northside.

As explained over and over, much of the SE simply is not covered by rail. Generalities are not facts. 10 minute cycles are not covering it the same way it doesn't cover Rathfarnham being 12 minute cycles away.

When you compare something like the N11 QBC. Yes it was the first and most impressive one we started off with, but again we are talking about a major highway that connects the entire South East. Yes when you compare a Cabinteely to a Rathfarnham it looks like Cabinteely…but you keep ignoring relative distances. For the most part the area you are complaining about stretches about the distance out to just beyond Stillorgan relative to the SW.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123348125#Comment_123348125

They've left it open for any of the Luas lines to become Metro afaik.

Although the Luas concepts are changing with every iteration we see.

Brightlights66

I think what BK is overall saying is broadly sensible: create the space, and upgrade in the future.

A problem in Ireland, it seems to me, is that there's always a desire to be world-class. We witnessed, back in around 2000, the Dublin Transportation Office's plan for Dublin, entitled 'A Platform for Change' with a host of LUAS lines and metros to be realised by 2015, to deliver a world-class transport system for Dublin.

None of it, of course, delivered, and Dublin is now 10 years on from the deadline of when all that should have happened.

One thing that did happen, though not in that PFC document, was the LUAS Cross-city, a very welcome addition to the city's public transport.

I spent several days last summer in Duesseldorf and Cologne, during the Euro football championship. Both cities, and other German cities like Hannover, have gradually moved their tramlines underground, and it is an ongoing process. The stations are basic, but they seem to function well.

Not world-class by any means, but very effective.

Those cities, of course, had an abundance of tram lines to be put underground; in Dublin, one of two tram lines is a success, so we must put it underground:(

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123352348#Comment_123352348

Yes, the lines between Luas/LRT and Metro are rather blurry these days. Each of our Luas lines carry more passengers per day that 3 of Amsterdams 5 Metro lines and only slightly behind the 4th!

Even Metrolink will be underground for only 1/3rd of it's route, the rest above ground or on a viaduct. It some ways it is just a slightly fancier, higher capacity Luas that goes underground in the city center.

When they were originally considering Metrolink back in 2017, the concept really was just Luas that goes underground, they were looking at the same low floor, narrow vehicles as Luas, just slightly longer. In the end they switched to more Metro like high floor, wider vehicles. I think that was a wise decision given the big traffic generators like Swords and Dublin Airport. But it shows the thinking.

Many much larger cities like Frankfurt start out with tram lines and later upgrade them to Metro, bury them, etc.

I think what BK is overall saying is broadly sensible: create the space, and upgrade in the future.

Yep, it isn't ideal, but it makes sense IMO.

In an ideal world we would be building 4 or 5 Metro lines at the same time. But reality is we simply don't have the money or resources for that. I wish we did, but realistically we don't

For the cost of one Metro line you could finance probably 5 or 6 Luas lines, which would overall cover much more of the city then just one extra Metro line.

The idea is just copy and past very standardised Luas lines across Cork and Dublin. Get into the type of continuous project development we had with the motorways back in the 2000's. Knocking out lines at a steady pace.

Of course it won't be perfect. And I've no doubt we will be back later to upgrade some of them to Metro. But at least we will be moving forward.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123352344#Comment_123352344

It hasn't though relatively speaking.

What hasnt?

DSW was sparsley populated until the 1950s.

So was a good chunk of modern day Dublin for example swords- in the 1950's swords population was 1,000 to 2,000 people compared to the approx 41K people it has today- which is still no where near the population of Tallaght at 64,282.

What's your point?

In Ireland the only significant fresh rail laid down since Independence is Luas Cross City and the Red Line. Everything else has been built upon stuff built in the 19th century by private capital.

This wouldn't surprise me at all so ill take your word for it.

If you were to construct the DART actually in 1984, you'd have built it 2km inland from where it mainly goes in the south east, more akin to where it travels for much of its time on the northside.

? what are you on about? The DART was constructed in the 1980's and opened for buisness in 1984. Do you mean if they built the DART on a different path or something? Thats what they done with the luas GL, they built the LUAS GL on the old harcourt street railway line. This means there are two rail lines in DSE- which i keep pointing out to you.

As explained over and over, much of the SE simply is not covered by rail.

All of DSW isn't covered by any rail lines bar the at capacity LUAS RL, which only services a very small part of DSW.

Generalities are not facts.

ok?

10 minute cycles are not covering it the same way it doesn't cover Rathfarnham being 12 minute cycles away.

The fact is you can cycle top UCD from either rail line in 10mins.

When you compare something like the N11 QBC. Yes it was the first and most impressive one we started off with, but again we are talking about a major highway that connects the entire South East.

This major highway does indeed have a fantastic frequent QBC and i am glad you now realise this, after my third or fourth, maybe fifth attempt at pointing this out. So thats a QBC, a heavy rail line and a Luas GL all in DSE.

Yes when you compare a Cabinteely to a Rathfarnham it looks like Cabinteely…but you keep ignoring relative distances. For the most part the area you are complaining about stretches about the distance out to just beyond Stillorgan relative to the SW.

I have no idea what you are on about here. I am not complaining about anywhere getting PT, but DSW must be prioritised next for high quality PT, where there is room to put it.

If there is no room for QBCs or LUAS put in a metro.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123352306#Comment_123352306

Yes I brought up Bray and Greystones to illustrate a point. You came back saying they're Wicklow…which rather proves the point on how you perceive the world around you and demand.

Because they are in Wicklow which is serviced by a motorway/national road with a frequent bus service that opens out onto a QBC that travels up through DSE and a heavy rail line that runs an extremely frequent DART service which will only improve.

What is this "so you agree" nonsense - inventing some conflict and a win for yourself?! Bizarre!

I said Bray and Greystones have access to heavy Rail, which you eventually agreed with- bizzare that i even have to point this out to you?

Now you are referencing the populations of Bray and Greystones as "news" to me when I already mentioned their population and growth.

Actually- no you didn't i had to quote the populations of bray, Greystones, Swords, Tallaght and Clondalkin for you.

And yes, the combined population for both is now likely over 60k and will likely be 70k by 2030…but in your world they have no relevance to demand in the south east / DLR!

So we are combining populations to suit our agenda here- I see.

Well they are 70K by 2030 but they already have access to a heavy rail line and frequent busses that travel on a motorway that leads to a QBC which is more than DSW has.

Tallaght has a population NOW of 81 K (the 13 electoral divisions) and only has an at capacity LUAS red line.

Just to note…they have far more relevance than Tallaght does to Rathfarnham…Rathfarnham is backed up by a massive public park, golf courses and mountains!

Thats just a very strange outlook from you tbh. You seem to have something against Golf and the mountains! Did you not enjoy the masters no?!

Metro2 as I've drawn it allows travel from Tallaght via Rathfranham and Terenure etc (i wont list all the urban areas metro2 services-AGAIN!) so of course Tallaght has relevance in this case- you just dontr seem to like GOLF courses or Tallaght LOL!- very strange.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123365943#Comment_123365943

The point is that the majority of the core infrastructure dates for the 19th century, when the coastal towns were drivers.

It isn't a case of the DSW being forgotten, it's a case of the State being poor for decades and making do with spending little on transport. It's an embarrassing "woe is me" argument that has no place somewhere like this.

On the DART….it is the point above. If they were actually designing a brand new DART service in the 1980s they never would have put it where the original track bed was on the southside, it cuts off the catchment areas dramatically.

In terms of DSW and "only a small part of it being covered by rail" - on the one hand Clondalkin is Dublin SW to you but now apparently it isn't and the rail line that goes through there doesn't count. It counted as DSW when you made up some branch line to feign a CBA, now apparently it doesn't matter!

In terms of Luas vs. Metro, there is absolutely nothing stopping a Luas being built in your part of town. Now that might mean some of your roads will be disturbed, but I am absolutely confident in saying that will meet any CBA ahead of your "proposal".

DSW IS getting prioritised. It is getting DART+ SW. It already got a Luas line. It is getting Bus Connects.

Your argument now has simply devolved to making things up and trying to make an emotional pitch here about some unfairness.

spillit67

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123366008#Comment_123366008

Again just WRONG.

Part of Bray is in Dublin.

…

Then you again pretend as though the things are divorced. The point again is that you cannot put an arbitrary line and claim it as Wicklow and that it has no impact on the South Eastern transport corridor in Dublin. You can do that in the South West as the Dublin Mountains bleeds into the Wicklow National Park, but not here. The end.

On the populations, again so odd. Just making stuff up. You seem to just try to make stuff up here rather than try to make a real point.

It isn't the case that Tallaght "only" has a Luas line btw, the same way it isn't the case that the Bray / Greystones / Delgany area (which is fast approaching 60k) has just a DART line (single line 30 mins service beyond Bray…). Greater Dublin does have an extensive bus system…

Again on Tallaght, I see the logic of going there. Just not in a expensive circuitous route being proposed that just so happens to serve near where you live.

tom1ie

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123367060#Comment_123367060

The end 🤣🤣. Ah stop. Cant be bothered with ya at the moment.
Im on 2 weeks holidays now I’ll clarify your inaccuracy (again😒) after I’m back from holidays.