2025 F1 General Discussion Thread

rameire

Saw the movie today.

Really enjoyed it, the Hanz Zimmer music helps.

Frank Bullitt

Rumours on reddit that Wolff is seeking approval from the board of Merc to formally get talks going for Max for 2026.

If this happens, it’s easily the biggest move since Schumacher to Ferrari, peak driver moving to a big team. Insane.

Frank Bullitt

https://speedcafe.com/f1-news-2025-max-verstappen-to-mercedes-rumour-toto-wolff-contract-negotiations-george-russell-implications-details/

I will do an Irish jig if this happens.

Brief_Lives

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123597534#Comment_123597534

this would be seismic.

max leaving a team where no one can drive the car except max…

DaTown

How do I detox from 10 years of Mercedes hate

dulpit

If (big if) it happens then Red Bull have made a car that can only be driven by one driver and have lost that driver. They're going to fall right back into the midfield if that happens.

quokula

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123597819#Comment_123597819

It's completely new regulations next year, the current cars are going in the bin so it's not really relevant. I suspect they'll be falling back to midfield regardless because of the new power units which hands the balance of power over to the existing engine manufacturers. Mercedes and Ferrari really should be the strongest teams. McLaren will have the new Mercedes engine but they'll need time to understand it and adapt to it so I'd expect them to go backwards too.

pjohnson

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123597819#Comment_123597819

They'd do well to be midfield.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123597904#Comment_123597904

I doubt that. They'll have to readjust to having two cars with equal resources and development opportunities. Everyone else does it so I'd say they'll settle back into that fairly quickly.

The issue they'll have is if they developed next years car around Max's idiosyncrasies and then they'll have a car that's designed so neither driver can use effectively.

Max seems to value being prioritised and dominating the team. No compromise. I think thats trye because hes convinced Red Bull to seriously compromise themselves by focusing on him to the detriment of the team. Mercedes hasn't worked like that. So I think there's a great chance he's just angling for an even better deal at Red Bull. Like Brian o driscoll being photographed having coffee in France around contract negotiation time.

Max would likely be giving up something he seems to really value (one driver team) to move to Mercedes.

pjohnson

Thats not an easy adjustment.

See Honda in MotoGP with Marc Marquez.

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123597953#Comment_123597953

I think redbull f1 is on a downward spiral that started with the death of the boss, increased with the messing over Horner and then the loss of Newey. If they lose Max, they are nowhere. Will be a midfield outfit for the medium term.

quokula

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123598206#Comment_123598206

The death of Mateschitz is definitely underplayed in the impact it had, but I think the loss of Newey is overplayed - he'd had one foot out the door for several years as he was heading for retirement, engaged in passion projects like the Aston Martin Valkyrie, and generally working part time and handing over his work to the next generation. This was something he and Horner were talking openly about a few years back.

If Aston Martin hadn't come along with a sack full of money I think he would have just retired, but now he gets to work at a factory around the corner from where he lives for a year or two (he's only turned up to one race for Aston Martin, and that was Monaco which I'm sure was as much a social event as a work one) then retire even more comfortably.

However there have been other movements, and more importantly they've also been working under severe development handicaps. The rules since 2022 have a handicapping system on wind tunnel and cfd time that is explicitly designed to stop teams winning for multiple years in a row because they'll be hamstrung on their ability to develop the car. What we're seeing is the intention of those rules playing out.

It's a bit of a myth that they're deliberately building a car around Max or making it harder to drive because of him - multiple engineers have called that out as it's just not how the design process works. They have drivability problems for sure but that's not an intentional outcome. Mercedes had the same thing a couple of years ago and it was framed in the media as the car being "a diva", but when it hits Red Bull they turn it into a conspiracy theory.

The characteristics of the current car are irrelevant for the future as they're starting next year with a blank sheet of paper. Maybe it'll be more drivable, maybe it won't. Who's driving the car will have zero bearing on that, it'll be more to do with the quality of their wind tunnel correlation and if their aero profile works as intended.

The much bigger problem for Red Bull will be the power unit though. They've had to build up an engine program from scratch for 2026 and nothing I've heard suggests they'll be in a position to take the established programs of Mercedes or Ferrari head on. They might find themselves in a position similar to McLaren Honda in 2015, and I'm sure Alonso's experience wasting the peak of his career there is something Verstappen would have on his mind.

mickdw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123598352#Comment_123598352

I think Newey was recalled somewhat to the coalface at redbull from his one time position of being semi retired.

Aston martin 2026 and 2027 performance will be a good indicator of the impact he has or has not.

Engineers may call out comments re building a car around max but the results don't lie. When your World Champion wants the car design to go in a direction and he proves its quicker as a result, any team will continue to support that. His ability means he lives with a very pointy front end like Schumacher could. The other drivers simply can't. So not a car built for Max but still a car only suited to Max.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123598473#Comment_123598473

The degree to which max seems to bleed the dlcar designed towards him, and how difficult it makes the car for others, is a big issue. If he goes to Mercedes and the same pattern emerges (Antonelli goes backwards towards the midfield and Max stays towards the front), then I think it should be seen as a big weakness in Max.

If he's not able to be competitive without having the car designed for him, that's not good. The only way it works is if he wins the championship. It's absolutely uselessness if he even finishes second in the drivers championship and the team finishes 4th in the constructors.

We'll have to see how it pans out.

Jacovs

Will it be Russell leaving Mercedes though? Be very harsh on him considering his season so far. Only 9 points behind Max.

Andrew76

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123598525#Comment_123598525

Apologies if I have misunderstood your point, but surely you can't be saying that it's a big weakness of a driver if he wants a car to be designed around his needs? Sure every driver on the grid wants a car tailored for their exacts needs - give me what I want so I can go faster, which benefits driver and team. If one driver is faster than another then it's only natural the car will lean towards that driver, ultimately it's the team's job to build the fastest car they can to maximise the points gained from both drivers - Red Bull have failed in that respect.

Not sure I see Max at Merc next year anyway, 2027 probably more likely. Would be good to see how he gets on in another car though, or maybe we'll get to see that in GT3. 😁

ctrl-alt-delete

I don't often read into things too much, but I think we can tell from Max's laid back interaction with Antonelli that he either feels sorry for him as he is taking his job, or is building a bond as they will be teammates.

On a serious note, you'd have to wonder why Russell was kind of breaking news in that regard. He still believes he will be at Merc but he is also more than likely informing others out there that he is available to talk.

I'd love to see it happen.

Mitch Connor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123598804#Comment_123598804

Would imagine Russel will end up at Aston instead of Stroll (They have to move him on at some point!!) if max goes to merc. I don't think they will get rid of Kimi, if they see him as the next super star.

Aston could be a really interesting team next season

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123598768#Comment_123598768

I suppose the point is if the Red Bull was designed so that Max gets say 99% of his absolute maximum possible but it means that the second driver can compete, that is obviously much better that having the car 100% for Max meaning the other driver gets nothing (Yuki has 7 points this year in Red Bull, Liam got nothing) then that's terrible. And if Max pushed for this direction (unclear if he actually did) that would be bad.

dulpit

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123598865#Comment_123598865

I'd guess that if Max did get into Red Bull for next year the obvious solution is a swap so Russell goes to Red Bull.

quokula

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123598525#Comment_123598525

This is just not true though. The car isn't built around Max. Max doesn't like how the current car drives, he's been calling it out for ages. Multiple engineers have pointed out time and again when this kind of thing comes up in the media that car design just doesn't happen that way. I know Horner has said things that contradict that but he's not an engineer and he's also protecting his second driver. The reality is that car design is all done in the wind tunnel and in simulation and they push for the maximum theoretical performance with the package by looking at aero loads, drag, expected grip levels, but many of the characteristics are only really fully established once they've manufactured the parts and tested them on track with the latest Pirelli rubber.

Balance can then be tweaked with setup changes, you can dial understeer and oversteer in and out to suit each driver, but sometimes the characteristics of the car or its ability to get temperature into the tyres doesn't give you as big a window as you'd like. This is not an intentional outcome.

The Red Bull car does not handle how the team wants it to handle or how Max wants it to handle. But they don't have a magic wand to improve the drivability without sacrificing pace any more than Mercedes have a magic wand to make their car work better in hot temperatures. The teams are where they are, designing vehicles at the limit of physics is not easy, and it's not made any easier when you have handicapped wind tunnel and CFD time, as Red Bull have endured more than anyone else during the current era.

Max is able to drive around the problems better than other drivers but he is not by any stretch of the imagination pushing them to create an undrivable car.

Mitch Connor

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123598891#Comment_123598891

Would they take a non-RB group driver?

Suppose they might have to as they have binned off half of them already at this stage.

Would they keep Tsunoda and put Hadjar with him? Or do Russel and Hadjar?

Frank Bullitt

Next year will be anyone’s guess with the new PUs. Only Merc got it right in 2014, and they had been planning that for years before hand, so they were well prepared.

That can’t happen this time, with the PU regs not defined far enough in advance. And for RBPT, they went on a huge recruitment run and hired a load of ex Merc engineers, they also have the backing for Ford. Aston have Honda, it’s a nice mix.

I’d not be putting a bet on any of it just yet though, that also might be why Max hasn’t signed for Merc.

quokula

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123599157#Comment_123599157

The general belief is that Mercedes are ahead of the rest and Red Bull are well behind. The rumours might be coming completely out of thin air but it makes sense that Red Bull would struggle as they're building the whole facility completely from scratch and while the engines are new they still have a lot of similarity with the existing units where Mercedes have been so strong.

If I were betting I'd go for Mercedes to dominate with Ferrari behind them. McLaren probably next - they'll have a Mercedes engine but they'll need time to learn and adapt to it and won't be as well integrated as Mercedes are for the first year or two at least. Alpine could be a dark horse to be up there with McLaren as they're switching to Merc too and they've been held back badly by their engine for years while their chassis has been considered to be decent. I expect both Red Bull and Audi to struggle at first.

Frank Bullitt

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123599196#Comment_123599196

I can see your logic, however the only unit at the minute that is struggling is the Renault in the Alpine. I also recall that Merc had a small issue with the renewable fuel change in 2022, which they eventually got on top of.

Rumours are exactly that, and to at least give RB some grace, once Honda left they went straight to setting up a performance department, and that was before the PUs were defined.

Also, the PUs for next year are a complete blank slate, they’ll be running on fully renewable fuels and then there is the electric element which is larger. It’s quite different to what F1 has now.

El_Duderino 09

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123598768#Comment_123598768

Yes you misunderstood. If he can't perform unless she has the car his way, that's a weakness. If his way means the car is very difficult to drive for his teammates then that's also a weakness.

Would you make the case that it's benefiting Red Bull to have one driver almost unable to score points in the constructors championship because the car is so suited to Max it makes it difficult to drive for the other drivers?

El_Duderino 09

IMG-20250701-WA0015.jpg

This is pretty striking.

Max has scored 15 times as many points as as his teammates this year. He's good, but he's not that good and it's way out of whack with every other team.

Jordan 199

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123585405#Comment_123585405

It will be on Sky Showcase at 9PM tonight.

Andrew76

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123599359#Comment_123599359

Ok so your point is that if a driver can’t perform when a car is not to their liking then that’s a weakness - ok, but sure we see that up and down the grid - Lando and Lewis being prime examples. A car being difficult to drive for one driver but not his teammate - that’s a weakness of the team and slower teammate.

Of course it doesn’t benefit Red Bull to have one driver deliver so poorly but they are the ones designing the car. Who is making the case that it does benefit them?

Hijpo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123599214#Comment_123599214

I guess we also have to factor in the grey area of interpretation of the regs. The regs are new to all involved in that regard

Who is going to develop an aero package or PU that skirts the regs long enough to gain the advantage before the FIA clamp down or other teams develop their own methods to match.