When, why did Ireland lose the plot, or did it at all?

Sunny Disposition

Not that long ago SF were pariahs, lunatics who thought they could bomb the Brits out of Ireland. Very dangerous and totally deluded. Now they are a very mainstream political party.

Even more recently Gerry Hutch was one of the most feared gangsters in the country. He's now a very realistic candidate for the Dáil.

Years ago people knew that vaccines were helpful, and are very helpful in combatting disease. Now a sizeable number of people won't take them, and cynicism about them is very widespread, some geniuses won't even accept Covid-19 was a real illness.

When and why did we go mad? Can we cop ourselves on again? Will we?

pgj2015

Stupid people tend to have more kids than people who are more educated and rational.

jimgoose

Back in the day people took their bucket of gruel and three Hail Marys and were grateful for it. Nowadays a lot of people who don't know their elbow from their apex are sufficiently comfortable that they can believe any oul' cockamamie shee-ite that amuses them.

You also have social media in it's various forms, thus giving platform to people who hitherto wouldn't have had trousers, never mind feckin' platform.

BornSkippy

Yes, people in Ireland used to be much more rational and less credulous. That's why moving statues and De Bert's political career were so big.

jimmycrackcorm

Not that long ago SF were pariahs,

Over 30 years ago…

Gerry Hutch was one of the most feared gangsters in the country. He's now a very realistic candidate for the Dáil.

Who says he is a realistic candidate? - he's just getting a lot of media attention based on this gimmick

 Now a sizeable number of people won't take them

I've taken mine becasue I trust the science but I don't blame some people for being wary of a vaccine that was basically very rushed.

Not all vaccines are safe:

Dengvaxia controversy - Wikipedia

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058381513/when-why-did-ireland-lose-the-plot-or-did-it-at-all

For the first part of your post, when the centre fails to solve problems over and over again, it makes sense that people would turn elsewhere. The UK had identikit governments between 1979 and 2019 fuelling the rise of a populist party, UKIP which helped contributed to Brexit. Unlike the UK, Ireland offers voters real choice in elections so this is no surprise.

As for vaccines, it's probably some combination of active radicalisation for engagement by social media companies, fear of the unknown, opportunistic scum like John Campbell, the complexity of immunology/vaccinology and the fact that pharma companies are morally quite terrible.

thomil

At the risk of getting flamed to death, I’d question whether it ever had the plot in the first place. From the hardline catholic pivot under De Valera to an almost complete neglect of any type of large-scale infrastructure project, save maybe for electrification and Rineanna/Shannon Airport, to an astounding unwillingness to effectively exploit the bountiful resources surrounding the island of Ireland, this country seems to have made the wrong choice at every corner and still managed to fall upstairs somehow.

That pattern continues today. Large-scale investment in infrastructure is shunned unless it buys you votes or influence, the country and its people shirk the responsibilities that come with running a country in the 21st century, parochialism and sectarianism (under the guise of the GAA) is alive and well, and the church still has an outsize influence in this country. I’d posit that the current malaise facing Ireland is merely a consequence of 100 years of wrong decisions.

Floppybits

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122861868#Comment_122861868

The first paragraph is a bit like out politicians, doesn't matter the mess the leave behind they always seem to fail upwards, current Taoiseach Simon Harris a prime example.

I agree with you on everything you said we shunned taking responsibility both politically and individually, infact if you are seen to be taken responsibility you are ridiculed and will have people saying "what are you doing that for?" or "would look at them who do they think they are?", maybe attitude might be changing but it is slow. We do need to take responsibility individually and collectively and then hold those in office accountable as well and not what we have at the moment were people will gladly call out wrong doing for one party but wrong doing is called out on the party they support they are very quick to excuse it.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122861868#Comment_122861868

Large scale infrastructure investment like the entire motorway network that was built exceptionally quickly? We also don't have bountiful resources surrounding the island. I don't know why people seem to think there is some secret North Sea oilfield that we just haven't bothered to look at.

Ireland quite clearly hasn't made the wrong choice at every turn, and to suggest so is ridiculous in the extreme. Many excellent choices were made which is why the country was able to pull itself out of the absolute mess it was in up to the early 90s.

silliussoddius

Maniac 2000 becoming a big hit, and thinking Ireland was the richest country in the world.

thomil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122862323#Comment_122862323

How telling that the first things that come from you are roads and oil. As if they somehow were the only resources worth exploiting or the only infrastructure worth building.

I was actually referring to the fishing grounds present off of Ireland’s southern an western coasts. A coordinated approach to exploiting and managing these could have easily provided a steady and, if managed correctly, renewable source of income for the newly independent Irish state. Yet, the country has NEVER, since its independence, made any real attempt to build up a capable offshore fisheries industry. Or indeed paid much attention to the seas at all, up until today. Instead, every time this topic is raised, decision makers and the general public just stick their fingers in their ears and sing lalalala at the top of their voices, leading to the current situation where a small number of Irish high-seas trawlers have to battle against massive fishing armadas sitting right at the border of the Irish EEZ.

And even if we were to look at the Kinsale gas field, or the Corrib gas field, neither have been managed with even the slightest bit of forethought. The moment these resources were discovered, they were flogged off to government cronies so that the government wouldn’t have to deal with anything maritime.

As for your vaunted motorway network, how much of that was planned and built before the EU came knocking and told the country to get a move on? Let’s face it, the motorway is only as “extensive” (I’ll get back to that later) as it is because Ireland was able to spend other peoples’ money and user other countries’ expertise to get it built. Before the EU got involved, what did Ireland have? The Naas Bypass. Slow hand claps all around. That’s effectively all that Ireland was able to get done on its own.

Let’s stay on the subject of the Motorways a little longer. Remember how I put the “expensive” in quotation marks? And on the surface, that is true. Motorways seem to reach into every part of this country except the sparsely populated northwest. But where do all of those motorways lead, with one exception? Right, Dublin. The entire network is built to feed traffic into the greater Dublin area. Any type of lateral development has been long fingered for decades. The M28 to the Port of Cork, only the country’s second most crucial seaport and the only Irish port to take Panamax-size container vessels, is only getting started now. The M20 between Cork and Limerick has been on the back burner for decades, and no one is thinking, or has seemingly ever considered, linking the second largest city in the country to Ireland’s most important ferry terminal, Rosslare. The only non-Dublin centric motorway in the country links… Limerick to Athenry.

I understand that Ireland was cash strapped when it became independent. I understand that the country was woefully backward in its development and that the government had a lot on their plates to get things sorted. But even in that state, Ireland was able to get Ardnacrusha built and an ambitious rural electrification scheme underway. It was able to, to its credit, massively improve and tarmac large parts of Ireland’s road network Even in the 1920s and 1930. It was eventually able to move ahead with a, for the time, massive airport project at Rineanna in the 1930s and 1940s, and even had enough foresight to equip that airport not just with a large basin for flying boats, but also with extensive concrete runways. It is known as Shannon Airport today.

But those projects were outliers, there was never any coherent plan behind them, never any noticeable ambition to improve the country. Instead, in the 1920s and 1930s, multiple governments governments were more worried about cutting taxes rather than building a proper foundation for the now independent country. There was never a focus on anything other than short-term vote getting, and if a project turned out to provide long-term benefits, it was more often by accident than by design.

I will admit that Ireland has managed quite a turnaround in fortunes from the 1980s and 1990s onwards. However, a lot of this economic windfall has come from exploiting other nations’ efforts, primarily in the shape of numerous taxation schemes designed to take advantage of multinational companies and extract economic value, and money, from them. There has been remarkably little effort on behalf of multiple Irish governments going back to immediately post-independence to create an economic and infrastructural base of its own. Your strong and clearly emotionally driven reaction clearly demonstrates that the mindset that drove all these short-term decisions is still alive and well.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122862611#Comment_122862611

Before the EU got involved, what did Ireland have?

No money. Which rather negates a lot of your argument.

We have more motorway kms per capita than Germany. There is not a lot the government can do about the low population density of the country. Obviously the M20 needs building, but there is nothing particularly unusual about the motorways leading to Dublin - all the motorways in Finland lead to Helsinki as well.

Could we have developed the fishing industry better? Of course. But fishing, no matter how successful, would be a tiny industry.

You also have the history of off-shore energy resources completely backwards. The state sold exploration rights, they didn't wait til they were discovered then sell them off. They have sold exploration rights for vast areas of the coastal waters that got them money and not a drop of energy was ever resourced from them.

No one is claiming mistakes were not made. By claiming we have made nothing but wrong decisions and accidently failed upwards you are the one being ridiculously emotional and reactive. It's quite clearly complete nonsense.

Idbatterim

I think the questions is a fair one. The country was broke was a large part of our independence, but say the last 30 years, particularly the last twenty. You are what you eat… You are what you elect, absolute failures as politicians, thats all we did have to vote for and all we do have to vote for! When all they care about is the short term, how can the long term result be good… It isnt…

j62

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122862367#Comment_122862367

all downhill since Atlantic 252 disappeared

It's not an Irish thing.

j62

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122862665#Comment_122862665

You are sorta wrong on the energy side

According Wikipedia there’s 3.8TCf of gas in sligo shale deposits alone

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shale_gas_by_country

Potentially as much again in Clare, and large shale deposits in NI

Ireland uses 0.18TCf of gas per year

So that’s at least two decades of not having to import gas, which we need as our wind turbine fleet does next to **** all two thirds of the time

But we banned the technology, and then doubled down by blocking construction of LNG terminal

Jack Daw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122861850#Comment_122861850

Ireland offers voters a real choice? Are you taking the piss?

Our 2 major parties are in coalition with each other now and probably will be again after the election and they've been the only 2 parties that have been in power in the history of the state and there is barely any difference between the two of them.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122862961#Comment_122862961

Shale gas is notoriously difficult to remove in the kind of bedrock in the UK/Ireland. It's unclear if it would be viable in much of Europe and no progress has been made really anywhere.

I don't agree with the blocking of the LNG terminal. But I'm not the one making absolutist statements about everything being done wrong or right.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122862973#Comment_122862973

It's what people vote for. In fairness, Irish people are canny enough to know that cranks, which tend to be far right, are nothing more than toxic imbeciles out solely for themselves.

jodaw

Stupid people were never the problem..sometimes the problem is the faux educated people always trying to fix non existent problems...

j62

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122862980#Comment_122862980

Maybe, maybe not, but we would never find out having banned fracking technology which has made likes of US economy boom and become energy independent

Would have been a nice little tax earner too as gas/oil is not subject to low corporation tax, and of course high paying jobs

323

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122862323#Comment_122862323

Agree apart from the Oil bit. Petroleum to the West and particularly the Northwest is no secret and has not just been "looked at" but proven. Just never been talked about by our government and their pet media for some reason? Who knows, maybe just the shambles of a marine and minerals departments civil servants forgot to tell "the Minister".

Challenging conditions for numerous reasons but has been over 20 year's since successful exploration holes were drilled and well tested, with massive flow rates, of high quality light sweet crude. It's there and lots of it, just as the geology indicated.

Was some follow up, but the concessions have long since elapsed/been given up.

Who knows, maybe walked away because as the thread says, Ireland lost the plot a long time ago. That and numerous other reasons why no business in there right mind would risk investment in Ireland? Apart from the pharma and IT ponzi schemes of course.

thomil

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122862980#Comment_122862980

Except that you’re misrepresenting my statements. Ireland has been able to make brave decisions in the passt, I even listed them: Adrnacrusha/Shannon Hydroelectric Scheme, Rural Electrification in general, the massive updating of the nations existing road network post independence. The construction of Rineanna/Shannon Airport and, more importantly, the establishment of the Shannon Free Trade Zone, the latter of which would serve as a key model for the likes of Shenzhen and other economic free zones in the PRC.

Unfortunately, those are few and far between, and balanced out by numerous frankly disastrous decisions: Turning childcare & education over to the Catholic Church, indeed, effectively subjugating the entire country to the Vatican after having only just shaken off another foreign, untouchable oppressor. Opting for neutrality in World War 2 when it would have meant no hardship at all to join the Allied side. Instead, Ireland chose to bow down to one of the most horrific genocidal maniacs in known history. And that doesn’t even touch on all the missed economic and industrial opportunities up until the 1980s.

No money. Which rather negates a lot of your argument.

Ardnacrusha cost the fledgling Free State on fifth of its entire budget. One Fifth. And they made that investment only a few years after the end of a rather bloody civil war. Are you trying to tell me that building a motorway network back in the 1970s would have taken an equally large chunk of the budget? The dearth of infrastructure development outside of the projects I mentioned above was a matter of policy, a matter of choice, not dictated by external factors.

There is not a lot the government can do about the low population density of the country.

There’s quite a lot that the government could do if they wanted. Improve infrastructure in areas not called Dublin, ideally along the south coast. Provide tax breaks for companies that decide to set up in these areas. This can be done. In fact, I’d go so far as to say that it has been done, at least from the 1990s onwards, in Cork. Those pharmaceutical companies, the likes of Apple, DellEMC, Amazon, also these companies did not come to Cork for sh!ts and giggles. There’s no reason why the Southeast could not have developed in that way either with the right incentives and investment. In fact, there’s no reason why it couldn’t happen even now, if the government wanted.

What I do agree with you is that there are certain regions that, due to their remote location will never really turn into an economic powerhouse. Which is why I pointed out the northwest in my previous post. It is just too sparsely populated, to far away from all the major transportation hubs or transit corridors to have a realistic shot as a whole.

Obviously the M20 needs building, but there is nothing particularly unusual about the motorways leading to Dublin - all the motorways in Finland lead to Helsinki as well.

Bit of a selective choice of sample there. Austria has a similar imbalance between the capital and the regional cities and yet, it has motorways centered around Linz, Graz, Salzburg and Klagenfurt/Villach as well as Vienna. The same goes for the Czech Republic, where you have a similar disparity and motorways centred around Ostrava and Brno in addition to Prague. Even the Baltic states are working to decentralise their transport network.

The state sold exploration rights, they didn't wait til they were discovered then sell them off. They have sold exploration rights for vast areas of the coastal waters that got them money and not a drop of energy was ever resourced from them.

To quote Wolfgang Pauli, you’re not only not right, you’re not even wrong. That’s how far off the mark you are here. Do I have to remind you about Des O’Malley selling off all exploration rights in Irish Waters in perpetuity in 1967? For 500 Pounds? Do I have to remind you of Ray Burke signing away any rights to royalties for oil and gas finds in Irish waters? Do I have to remind you about his slashing of taxes on oil & gas exploration? Or how he kicked out the 50% stake of the Irish government in any commercially viable oil or gas find? We signed away our oil and gas reserves for a pittance without having any real benefit from it.

I’m not going to be crazy enough and claim that Ireland would have been like the Scandinavian countries if things had gone differently. This country had the odds stacked against it almost from the outset, and it has transformed itself beyond belief. And yet, Ireland has had this maddening ability to sabotage itself going back all the way to independence. Denying that will only leave the country vulnerable to repeating the same errors.

Marcos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122863206#Comment_122863206

I agree with a lot of what you're saying but have to take issue with a couple of things.

Turning childcare & education over to the Catholic Church. The state had no money to put into education and health, so from the point of view of most of the population at the time, this was a no brainer.

indeed, effectively subjugating the entire country to the Vatican after having only just shaken off another foreign, untouchable oppressor. Looking at it from our point of view, then exactly. But it wasn't the point of view of the majority of the population at the time.

Opting for neutrality in World War 2 when it would have meant no hardship at all to join the Allied side. We had just had a civil war less than twenty years previously after fighting against the British. Dev's policy of non alignment was more of a way to keep from potentially reigniting it again. Which is why he also had many republicans interned for the duration of the war.

Instead, Ireland chose to bow down to one of the most horrific genocidal maniacs in known history. History disagrees with you, there were a number of concessions to the Allies, such as allowing overflight of Lough Swilly, returning downed pilots to the North while German POWs were interned for the duration of the war, proividing weather reports which helped the D Day landings etc. The Irish also offered to join the war when the US but were turned down after the US saw that they would have to provide air and sea defence for the country, which would take away from the war in Europe. So it's not all black and white.

And that doesn’t even touch on all the missed economic and industrial opportunities up until the 1980s. We have had some visionaries who brought about the likes of Ardnacrusha, providing proper public housing such as the development of Marino garden village, Drumcondra etc. All, like you said, when the State had no money. Shannon airport and Shannon duty free. But visionaries like TJ Whitaker who set the ground for modernisation of the country that joining the EEC pushed forward. I'd also include Donough O'Malley for making secondary education free for everyone in that too. I'd also be controversial and include Haughey putting the IFSC in place. We wouldn't have the massive surpluses we are lucky to have at the moment without that. There's plenty of things to rightly abuse him for, but that one worked out well.

On selling the exploration rights for the entire Irish waters for £500. I agree totally. Then the likes of Ray Burke "negotiating" with the oil companies by first sending all his civil servants out of the room! But you're forgetting Bertie Ahern when he was also Minister for the Environment negotiated with the oil companies and gave them even more generous terms on royalties etc. This was about the time of his transactions that would later be examined by the tribunals. Make of that what you will. AFAIK those terms generally last about 20 - 25 years. I've no idea what Eamon Ryan did, but I'd guess refuse everything.

If only we had some Scandinavian style governance, we could be so much better off, but unfortunately we have our sneaking regard for stroke pulling and corruption which pulls us back. Anyway, good post.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122861868#Comment_122861868

What a load of nonsense. The new Irish state had lot of ambition for large scale infrastructure despite not actually having a pot to piss in. It was also far better at giving young people a chance and taking a risk. I think this was because the revolutionaries were largely young men. It's sad that the State isn't still willing to take risks anymore because people get hammered when things go wrong.

A country is not guaranteed to be a success. If the State genuinely made the wrong choice every single time in the last 100 years then the State simply wouldn't exist. The State has got a lot right, more right than wrong.

I think a genuine criticism is that the State nearly always plays it safe and prefers the status quo, when reform and risk taking is desirable.

johndoe11

The geology would indicate that there is plenty of undiscovered oil and gas off the west coast however most recent wells have not discovered anything. There has not been a discovery of any kind since Corrib in the mid 90s. The problem is there has only been 160 wells drilled, compared to 1000s in Norway and the UK. The more wells drilled the better the understanding of the geology. Plenty of non commercial fields have been tested, however they came to nothing. There was oil flowed to a tanker from the Connemara field years ago but the flow rates dropped off very quickly and it was deemed non-commercial. The notion that there is discoveries out there sitting waiting to be produced is nonsense.

https://www.ogj.com/home/article/17241445/statoil-results-off-ireland-not-good

The was 50 odd licences, all held by major companies and numerous wells were planned in the porcupine basin before the Government announced the ban in 2019. And all these were under the new tax regime which had royalties attached. They lost the plot there to be sure.

notAMember

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122861850#Comment_122861850

The "fact" that pharma companies are morally quite terrible? Explain more there please, that's a really odd statement, and in particular to come from the moderator of a science and health forum. As companies are simply groups of people working together with a common goal… I assume the many thousands of well-educated Irish people who work hard researching and producing those medicines, are all also somehow amoral to you? Ireland is the single largest exporter of medicine in the EU.

Who should research, develop, produce and distribute medicines then, to have it done morally? Witch-doctors?

Or just you don't believe in medicine at all?

On the rest of this topic, Ireland is a baby of a country, barely 100 years old. I think it's done pretty well considering.

crusd

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122861822#Comment_122861822

Except that is a safe and effective vaccine when used correctly.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058381513/when-why-did-ireland-lose-the-plot-or-did-it-at-all

Even more recently Gerry Hutch was one of the most feared gangsters in the country. He's now a very realistic candidate for the Dáil.

America just voted for a literal convicted felon and sex predator.

Argentina voted in whatever the fúck this is.

Large swathes of our neighbours believe this tax dodger is appointed by God.

They convinced themselves these fúcking ghouls were going to make their life better.

I could go on.

But to answer question, no we haven't lost the plot. In a world going to fúck we seem to be one of the few actually keeping it together.

CliffHangeroner

Society is falling off a cliff the last 20 years or so, it's not an Irish problem in particular in all honesty.

Forget about Covid19, the real pandemic is the pandemic of stupidness that is plaguing the western world.

DrPsychia

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122862988#Comment_122862988

The people of Kerry are obviously not canny enough when they keep voting in the Healy-Raes.

https://youtu.be/cjl8OIZijjY?si=RPnwCDyArReYohxH