Irish General Election - Friday, November 29th *Read OP for Mod Warnings*

Seathrun66

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122859397#Comment_122859397

I’lve asked Mickey D to delay the election for 6/7 weeks if you want. Or the entire 9 weeks so it’s not a day earlier than the full-term. His press officer sends his apologies for inconveniencing you next Friday.

Idbatterim

There is something about Harris that is really starting to irk some people, myself included, a few family members and a few of my mates, mostly ex FG voters, who are on the fence of who to vote for, have ruled out FG based on Harris. Music to my ears, because he should not be leading that decrepit party that is FG and certainly not, this country

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122859420#Comment_122859420

Parties that do not share the same fundamental policies do not enter coalition together…………

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122858574#Comment_122858574

Our cost of living certainly isn't the "envy" of anywhere.

_Kaiser_

So...

Harris acted like a spoiled child throughout. Muttering and heckling while others spoke. As I said, he clearly dislikes Mary Lou. Didn't like her poking at him but tried his best to hide from the Children's Hospital questions and constantly baiting and sniping back at her. Does nothing for either of them.

Martin clearly has a very different view of his time as Taoiseach than the reality. Also very condescending and not a fan of being questioned with again too much focus on Mary Lou like the lad next to him. They must really feel threatened by her for whatever reason! I don't know why to be honest.

O'Gorman is living in a fantasy world. A dangerous one at that if you're a rural dweller or not part of the well-heeled SoCo set generally.

Mary Lou disappeared entirely for a significant portion of the middle of the debate. Dragged too much into Harris and Martin's baiting but SF are just unelectable to most working middle class and business owners regardless and that's perfectly understandable.

Tobin the standout of the evening for me. Came across very well I thought. I was surprised but impressed overall by him.

Boyd Barrett is useful for keeping the Government parties accountable but that's about it. Would it really have hurt him to dress for the occasion? Doesn't have to be a suit, but impressions matter.

Bacik is another one who lives in a ideological bubble. Crying about the "far right" is immediately a red flag, not to mention her fantasy policies. Also like several others, out of step with the social mood generally (and not just in this country) that is increasingly rejecting these socialist left policies and beliefs anyway

O'Callaghan came across as a fella out of his depth among the big kids. Very quiet and anonymous for the most part.

The others (Collins and Collins) just seemed to be there to make up the numbers. Come across as nice, down to earth, genuine people but that's not enough at this level.

One of the most animated moments was the argument about the Palestinian conflict. I've sympathy for the victims on both sides, but it's hardly a priority issue for most people watching this debate, let's be honest!

Housing - one of the key issues and they all say the right things, but nothing new that we haven't heard for the last 5 years+. Realistically they probably all have fair points. An all-party approach could be useful but highly unlikely of course!

Immigration - the elephant in the room. Harris and Martin again spouting the obvious despite the fact that they and their parties and coalition partners has overseen and actively encouraged the mess in the first place, and O'Gorman living in denial for his own role in it. Tobin strong on this. Bacik and her "think of the poor poor people" line is very out of touch with the mood and reality of what's happening. Boyd Barrett also with the victimisation and the Irish went everywhere angle.. Nonsense! Mary Lou talking sense on the issue, but belatedly of course.

Will give Katie Hannon props too. Did a fairly decent job of trying to keep them all on track but again, I think that mics should have been muted to prevent the bickering.

Seathrun66

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122859715#Comment_122859715

Such as the 2013 German Grand Coalition between the CDU & SPD? The 1994 FG/Labour/Democratic Left coalition or any here featuring the Greens? See also most Italian, Israeli, Spanish or Dutch coalitions.

If you don’t understand the compromise nature of coalitions you don’t understand politics.

.

Tony EH

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122858866#Comment_122858866

They're capable of working together because their neo-Liberal political outlook roughly coincides to some degree. The only bone of contention that exists between the two parties is how much power they wield.

Idbatterim

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122859752#Comment_122859752

our cost of living, freeloading off other countries for our defence, appalling infrastructure, very penal income tax system.. thats just the start… The young should leave here in their droves, the country has turned its back on them. Stay here to be fleeced on rent, cost of living, everything. Then you can have half your salary thieved over a pittance, to pay for all of the freeloaders here, a government throwing money around like its confetti. Young people of Ireland, you owe those wasters in the Dail nothing! Go out and go somewhere, where you arent seen as jus a cash cow, to fund endless waste and wasters, inside and outside of the Dail…

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122859761#Comment_122859761

I understand a couple of simple things.

-If a party leader goes out of his way to say they will not be entering a coalition with another specific party, yet do actually enter a coalition with this party, then both of those parties share very similiar broad policies, and both parties are far more similiar than different.

-If a party/government leader, when repeatedly asked, repeatedly lies to the country around when a new election is to take place, the country should treat that party/government/person with disdain/mistrust.

-How can any of the people I have referenced above be trusted to deal with the very real issues that effect this country just bearing the two things above in mind, let alone the very fact that these same two parties (one or another or both) have been in charge of this country for over 100 years?

I understand politics as well as the next person, it's a simple game:

Politicians number 1 aim - get enough votes to get into whatever you are aiming to get into.

Politicians number 2 aim - get into a governming position once you have achieved aim 1.

dmakc

The biggest issue this country finds itself in is that FF/FG are now together. Opposition parties work best when they're a real threat to power.

In the past five years FF/FG have hid behind Tony Holohan's excessive lockdowns, saw a cost of living crisis spiral out of control, catered for an immigration crisis in the form of IPAs, got their arses handed to them in a needless referendum and spent hundreds of thousands on a bike shelter.

If one of FF or FG committed the above in isolation, you could be certain they're answerable to it in the form of the other party exploiting these mistakes and likely swapping in. But this country's motley crew in opposition are so dull, so feeble that even I can't bring myself to vote for them.

Seathrun66

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122859785#Comment_122859785

The election is 9 weeks before the end of a 260 week term. Effectively seen the term through and a new coalition may not be in place until January/February.

Parties have similarities but also differences. They compromise on legislation before entering coalition and the main parties will all consider working with each other (bar the far-right nutter parties) despite pre-election protestations. Basic knowledge.

They won’t, in electoral mode, state a preferred coalition partner as they want to distance themselves from others and gain as many of their own votes as possible. Simple stuff.

If parties entering government together are always the same then please explain the German Grand Coalitions or the Free Democrats/Labour/Green presence in coalitions here. Plus the other examples I’ve given of diverse administrations in the last post. You asked for examples and then ignored them as you can’t refute the point. Parties differ. They compromise to govern. Simple as.

harryharry25

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122859907#Comment_122859907

I vote FF last time as I know plenty of my friends did based on the promise made my Micheal Martin that they wouldn't be going into coalition with FG

Il never vote for FF ever again because of it

You see maybe in the old days politicians lying didn't matter but for the younger generation it does matter and anything they say now is out there forever especially with social media

FF and FG are now the same party in all but name. Another 5 years of them as much as il hate it, is 5 years of more and more people realising they were never really any different, and they have shown it now they need each other to stay in power

From getting over 80% between them and swapping roles in Govt for near a century to now scrambling to get close to 45% and needing smudguards to stay in Power

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122859907#Comment_122859907

Telling people - no election till 2025 - Lies.

Telling people you wont form a coalition with party X or party Y, then forming a coalition with party X or party Y - Lies.

The lies are simple.

I never looked for any examples of diverse administrations but in fairness the examples you have given in Europe are far more diverse than the FF/FG parties we have here - do you agree?

The FF/FG parties we have here are essentially the same party at this point with far more similiarities than differences from a policy perspective - to the point where they have to manufacture conflict between them to try fool the electorate again.

One or the other or both have been in power since the foundation of the state yet they seem to harp on about the "Change" they will bring……… More Lies.

Cluedo Monopoly

Does anyone even challenge anymore that FF and FG are the same party?

kneemos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122860186#Comment_122860186

They were always the same party.

astrofool

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122860186#Comment_122860186

Bar the crinimal elements, SF have essentially coalesced into FF as they shift to the centre

The centre tends to do well in Ireland so most big parties align themselves there.

Seathrun66

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122859961#Comment_122859961

Naive of you given that our system is PR-STV and will always require parties to compromise to enter coalition governments.

Seathrun66

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122860175#Comment_122860175

The coalition we have here is FG/FF/Greens, not two parties. Other European examples I gave are both less and more diverse than here. You stated that parties going into power together had to have shared beliefs. Demonstrably not true.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122860314#Comment_122860314

Oh it's very true - how is that not obvious to you……..

Seriously, you'd have to be a fool at this stage to believe that FF and FG are in any way different outside of name.

Seathrun66

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122860376#Comment_122860376

Explain the CDU and SPD in Germany then or the Rainbow Coalition here. Just two examples.

HalloweenJack

The 2011 election was probably the worst thing that could happen to FG. Their greatest rival was eliminated and they were now the top dog with years of uninterrupted governance on the horizon.

And in those thirteen years, all they've really shown is that they aren't any more capable or competent than FF at running the country. What's more, they've dropped any solid positions they once had and have just become a mirror image of FF's attempt to be a neo-lib, all-things-to-everybody party.

FF were populist for a very long time while FG could suggest that they were the more serious right party. Now, they've dissolved into another centre-right party that stands firm as a flag in a hurricane.

The sad thing is the majority of voters still seem to prefer these two whereas parties that might actually do something drastic insead of offering sound bites and hollow promises are kept out of Government.

I don't think either do anything well but there is no real alternative that is connecting with the electorate, especially given SF's implosion in recent weeks.

There's plenty to criticise the current Government about but not voting for them because they didn't keep a promise to not have an election until 2025 or they said they wouldn't form a coalition with their long-term rival is scraping the barrel. If that's the kind of broken promise needed to lose a vote then you have a low threshold.

Sure, they made promises they didn't keep but in both cases they were practical, pragmatic solutions. Did people really expect FF and FG to force another election in the middle of a pandemic when they saw the chance to join forces and satisfy both of their permanent greed for power?

kneemos

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122860729#Comment_122860729

Full employment, swimming in money. What do you call a good Government?

rdser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122860814#Comment_122860814

There's a lot more to society than emplyement and revenue. Revenue is about the only thing working well.

Health is a disaster.

Infrastructure has been ignored.

Cost of living is worse than ever.

Housing is a complete clusterfck

And that not even getting into migration which they have made a complete hames of.

HalloweenJack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122860814#Comment_122860814

One that develops native industries instead of an over-reliance on MNCs.

One that can adequately address the cost of living and housing crises. I know this isn't Ireland specific but we're worse off than others.

One that actually has some principles and sticks to them and actually does them instead of just concerning themselves with staying in power.

One that properly invests in the country's infrastructure and future instead of giving tax handouts.

One that actually develops other parts of the country instead of being Dublin-centric. Its a small country and yet its lopsided. We could easily open up and develop other cities through proper infrastructure and thus relieve the pressure on Dublin.

The problem is all these politicians are short-term and just looking out for themselves. There's no long-term planning.

Podge_irl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122860872#Comment_122860872

The problem is all these politicians are short-term and just looking out for themselves. There's no long-term planning.

The problem is that voters are short-term and just looking out for themselves.

One that actually has some principles and sticks to them and actually does them instead of just concerning themselves with staying in power.

Like, I dunno, the Greens clearly have just done?

howiya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122860814#Comment_122860814

So one or two departments and their ministers are doing well…. There's 15 portfolios. Good government would be most or all of them being on top of their brief.

HalloweenJack

@Podge_irl I agree with the Greens comment. I am a fan of them and I am quite impressed that they aren't afraid to be unpopular, take a beating and recover before getting back in and pursuing their very specific agenda. Unfortunately, they'll never be a major player in Government and have to take the blame when they're part of something bigger that fails.

My frustration is chiefly aimed at FF and FG.

LambshankRedemption

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122860835#Comment_122860835

Crime is out of control. Helen Mcentee went for a wander around Talbot Street with a posse of gardai with her and then declared the place safe.

Defence is non existent.

Immigration policy also severely lacking.

Going through passport control in Dublin airport last week, the wife of the couple in front of me was going through her bag saying she can't find her password, and the husband said "Sure just tell them you lost it and we will get a free tent".

rdser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122860314#Comment_122860314

There Is no difference between FG and FF, apart from which vested interests they look after.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122860872#Comment_122860872

Native industries? Such as?