Limerick Rugby Experience Closure Discussion

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122785487#Comment_122785487

What it's got to do with the IRE is it is the genesis of the ludicrous delusion that the International Rugby Experience was a good idea and that Limerick was the best place for it.

geotrig

I'm not debating if it was a good idea or not in general,I've not been so wont pass judgement but if this was built in cork ,limerick ,dublin etc it would be still as good a place as any for it sometimes you just have to try these things out.I get the feeling you may not be a big rugby fan in general

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122785438#Comment_122785438

The modern day "Munster thing" was a result of rugby going professional in the 00's but it was always there as an exhibition side and a Munster team played the inter-provincials every year.

The rugby owned pubs was more to do with rugby players who retired from the amateur game without any money. Most had college degrees, others had pub owners who gave them shares to put the players name above the door, attract customers who thought they might see Peter Clohessey serving you behind the counter etc etc

Before the "Munster thing" we had the club games, huge attendances at senior matches (bigger than some of the aforementioned inter-provincial games in fact) underage teams were being filled up fast and a lot of clubs had multiple teams in each age group.

I accept it might have been much bigger at the time in Munster, and more specifically in Limerick, than it was in the rest of Ireland though. Can probably even sub-divide it further into Limerick City as the county was mainly hurling but for a few hotbeds

Not made with hands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122785513#Comment_122785513

Ah here, take off the rose tinted glasses.

After the final in Twickenham in 2000 the AIL became a feeder league.

I don't remember many AIL attendances in excess of 10000 in the city after that date.

The whole point is Cork have been banging the move big games drum for years now. Donal Lenihan is regularly at it.

Ultimately it's all changed and moving a few high profile games to Cork each year is inevitable.

This debacle is merely grist to the mill.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122785591#Comment_122785591

I know the history of Munster rugby. But it was like all rugby a team for rugby fans. The "Munster thing" was clearly about the fact Munster were winning because despite still being professional the "amazing" fans have deserted them and the "home of rugby" can't even fill the main stands now.

Most of the Limerick rugby pubs predate the likes of Clohessey. Flannerys, Breens, Ernie's, Mickey Martin's, Bobbie Byrnes, South's and so on were all destinations for a particular team in the Munster Cups era.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122785631#Comment_122785631

It's quite natural for fans of any sport to drop away when a team they follow stops winning, in recent seasons the players haven't looked interested in playing, let alone winning! Couple that with the fact that the suits in Munster seem to be more of a driving force than supporters and I can't really blame the fans for dropping away

I understand what you mean now by the rugby pub thing, those were the days and certainly it was an important part of the club and indeed the pub scene in Limerick

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122785605#Comment_122785605

I don't remember many AIL attendances above 10000 ever. Tom Clifford Park and Dooradoyle couldn't accommodate such crowds. You may have had some derbies when Shannon played in Thomond approaching that figure, but that's about it.

After the final at Twickenham Munster still only had the Interprovincial series and the Heineken Cup to play in. The Munster 'stars' were still playing for their AIL clubs as there weren't enough games with Munster. The AIL was still well attended. As I said the drop off was gradual. I know because I was an AIL regular back then.

Donal Lenihan can talk all he wants. Munster own (and owe debt on) Thomond and won't be moving any regular season games to Cork anytime soon. This years glamour friendly is back in Limerick after two years in Cork. It's not in any way inevitable.

And again, this 'debacle' has sweet fúck all to do with Limerick rugby or Munster Rugby. It was built by a man whose fame is for horse racing and supporting Limerick GAA.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122785631#Comment_122785631

Even when the stadium opened in 2008 and Munster were European Champions the ground didn't fill unless it was Europe or Leinster. The attendances we see today are nothing new.

And Limerick on its own doesn't have the population to fill Thomond. We always have and always will need fans to travel from the other counties to fill the ground. That's why it only ever got 3 or 4 sell outs a year.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122785680#Comment_122785680

It is natural for fans to drop away in any sport. And the core non bandwagon rugby support is small which is why you don't build a rugby experience around it.

Some of the decisions were hilarious like all the plain black IRE branded merchandise. Not Munster or Ireland but souvenirs of the experience. How many of them were you gonna sell.

Not made with hands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122785739#Comment_122785739

It's easy to see a home European cup quarter final or a Munster Leinster URC game filling the SuperValu. Even after paying rent to the GAA it would leave more money in Munsters pocket.

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122785806#Comment_122785806

A knockout game may go there. A regular season game won't. There are contracts signed for sponsors and hospitality in Thomond (Thomond actually has more bars and hospitality space than PuC) and then there are 5 and 10 years ticket holders and season ticket holders.

They didn't make as much money from the two previous games as was expected. A full Thomond is worth more to them. However for a knockout game that is outside of those contracts a move to PuC is possible.

geotrig

why are people still aligning the IRE with munster or ireland rugby , it was a private business tourist venture that tried to capitalise on a potential market hasn't any ties or didnt pay any licensing fees to munster or irfu for branding etc . "not made with hands" are cork people annoyed that a private individual from the area built an "experience" venture in limerick and not in Cork? 🤔 seems odd stance really

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122785753#Comment_122785753

They never intended the population of Limerick to keep this going. They were trying to attract visitors from outside Limerick and Ireland. I agree that it was never likely to happen, but that was their plan.

As to their merch, well they have nothing to do with Munster Rugby or the IRFU so they couldn't use any of their merch. Munster have an exclusivity deal with Lifestyle Sports and Elverys sell the IRFU stuff.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122785806#Comment_122785806

Yeah I think those games would fill any stadium. Officially 40,476 went to Landsdowne Road for Toulouse in 2022 while Ed Sheeran played in Thomond as a prime example

The bit about leaving more money in Munster's pocket after paying an unknown amount of rent to the GAA, losing the hospitality money, having to refund 10-year and season ticket holders and risk pissing them off and never seeing them again, I'd question. We don't know these figures and more importantly the people who can see these figures haven't considered moving any of these games out of Thomond.

EPCR Semi Finals are a different kettle of fish because EPCR rent the stadium, sell tickets and pay the teams a fee to show up and play. 2022 was also, playing the qtr and potential semi in PuC would have made much more sense than Landsdowne, that all goes without saying

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122785853#Comment_122785853

I know it's nothing to do with Munster or the IRFU but they did have stuff there that was about Limerick or was green or red.

If it was a green water bottle with Ireland, a rugby ball and the IRE branding I would get it but these were just plain black merch with the IRE branding.

I also get that Limerick people were not going to keep it going. But during the glory days of Munster rugby Limerick people fooled themselves into believing the whole world was talking about Munster rugby and we were some huge international sports brand. That was the hubris which lead to this (added it looks like to JP just wanting a short term venue to butter up some yanks)

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122785753#Comment_122785753

The experience was meant to be a tourist attraction rather than something specifically for the people of Limerick. Sadly Limerick doesn't get many tourists, because of the lack of attractions, you can see how the problem repeats in on itself. Any tourist trap exhibition that opens in our city will inevitably make a loss in it's first few years until more tourist exhibitions are set up and we properly market the city for tourists.

I don't think they had much choice on the merch unless they subcontracted the proper stuff from the likes of lifestyle or elvery's. That would have been a nice idea, you see the jersey and then get the opportunity to buy it at the other end, but with next to zero profit I'd imagine vs somebody spending €20 a t-shirt that was made in the far east for a few cent.

In fairness to JP, he tried something different and he failed - but at least he tried. I personally always respect out of the box thinking and our mayor has a lot of that. I'd say he will figure something to do something with the building that will make it worthwhile in the long run

breezy1985

Tourist attractions are the product of being a tourist destination not the creator of a tourist destination.

In Ireland the place is the attraction. Galway for instance has little or nothing for international tourists but has a load of diddly-eye myths about the whole of America being from there. Limerick will never have that.

Our best hope is to cash in on people who go for "real city" holidays but as much as that trend is growing it will never outdo the social media driven mega tourist destinations.

This museum or any other built in Limerick are not going to move the needle for tourism in Limerick (unless you want to get silly and pretend we might have the next Legoland)

Brennans Row

I really hope that both sides get a handle on this situation.

It’s unfortunate that so much time was lost in implementing a “Directly Elected Mayor” for Limerick.

I sure if Mayor John Moran was elected a year earlier in 2023, it would have not come to this.

Interesting to hear that he brings valuable experience with his time at the Hunt Museum.

IRE’s Barry Hannon comes across as a safe pair of hands which one would expect as JP McManus does everything very professionally and tends to pay a lot of attention to detail.

I went to see the IRE last year when I was home for a week and I was very impressed with the new building and the high quality of the interactive exhibit.

In my opinion, Rugby was the correct theme chosen here for the museum experience as it is authentic to Limerick, just as much as the Titanic is to Belfast.

The regeneration of Limerick City Centre is taking way too much time, the low footfall on O’Connell Street is shocking!

I hope the IRE does not turn out to be a debacle like the Belltable Arts Centre was in 2013.

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122787381#Comment_122787381

If JP does everything professionally then why did he spend €30m building a building that is now apparently only worth €5m and then put a business that they knew would never even break even into it?

And if John Moran had been elected a year earlier then they wouldn't have wasted a year coming to the point we are at now, but we'd be in exactly the same situation.

Strettie11

@meanderingtripe has reported that at end of the council meeting today(01/11) the mayor indicated the 100 k from mayoral fund was turned down by JP foundation

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122787381#Comment_122787381

Clearly rugby wasn't the correct theme because it didn't work.

Also the Titanic was built in Belfast. We are just a place that was good at rugby for a brief period of the history of rugby. We are not Twickenham or Warwickshire.

Not made with hands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122785826#Comment_122785826

I can't see demand being too big for renewal of 5 or 10 year seats given the current attendances.

With a bigger population Cork has it's own potential to sell tickets and corporates.

We already have regular season games in Cork.

It's easy to see some more higher profile games going there.

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122787743#Comment_122787743

Well that's where you're showing a lack of knowledge. The most recent 5 and 10 year ticket sales were very successful.

As for 'current attendances'. 15,700 against Connacht in September and 20,000 against Glasgow, 14,000 against Ospreys and 17,500 against Ulster in 3 weeks at the end of last season. All very healthy attendances along with 25,600 tomorrow.

And while games to get played in Cork, they get played at the 8,800 capacity Musgrave Park.

Munster are not going to move high profile regular season games from TP which they own and rent PuC. It doesn't make financial sense. No matter how much you Cork guys might want it to happen.

Brennans Row

Cookiemunster wrote . . .

If JP does everything professionally then why did he spend €30m building a building that is now apparently only worth €5m and then put a business that they knew would never even break even into it?

********************************

When I say professionally, I mean he executes his projects with very competent people.

The building was conceived as a civil cultural centre not for normal commercial use.

Art vs Commerce.

All his donations are a 100 % write down for him anyway.

********************************

Cookiemunster wrote . . .

And if John Moran had been elected a year earlier then they wouldn't have wasted a year coming to the point we are at now, but we'd be in exactly the same situation.

********************************

I beg to differ with you here.

********************************

Brennans Row

Breezy1985 wrote . . .

Clearly rugby wasn't the correct theme because it didn't work.

We are just a place that was good at rugby for a brief period of the history of rugby. We are not Twickenham or Warwickshire.

********************************

Limerick city was always very passionate about rugby.

Some of the eight rugby clubs in our small city are over 140 years old.

Its no coincidence that an New Zealand team are visiting us once again this weekend.

I can’t recall them ever playing in Warwickshire despite the origins of the game. 😉

********************************

Breezy1985 wrote . . .

Also the Titanic was built in Belfast.

********************************

Exactly, the Titanic example I mentioned is an iconic centre and everybody sees it as authentic to Belfast.

You might recall some ten years ago or so there were discussions to build a Limerick Cultural Centre that would house the City Museum and a Diaspora Centre.

The building was to be ‘iconic’ in its design and make a statement for Limerick.

It seems it all evaporated once Galway got the nod to be Ireland’s European Capital of Culture in 2020 instead of Limerick.

I also got the impression a Diaspora Centre was to be reserved for the Capital.

So in the end we ended up with JP McManus building this centre for the IRE.

Apart from Rugby, I don’t see any other Limerick theme that would have been suitable for our iconic centre.

********************************

sliabh 1956

Was passing through Limerick on Wed so i decided to drop in and visit the Experience. To my surprise the attendant told me no new vistors are being only admitted only pre booked booked tours. Strange for a buisness thats short of money.

Brennans Row

International Rugby Experience 'rejects Mayor of Limerick's €100,000-per-year offer' (Limerick Leader)

AN OFFER of €100,000 per year for three years by Mayor John Moran to help keep the ailing International Rugby Experience attraction afloat has been declined.

Limerick Live understands that Barry Hannon, the chief executive of the city centre venue, wrote to Mayor Moran requesting that councillors be informed of the news.

No further information was given in the letter, it's understood.

Mayor Moran said he is willing to keep the money aside until the local authority budget on November 29 next, and added he hopes a solution can be found.

Mr Hannon declined to comment further beyond the contents of the letter itself.

Limerick City and County Council declined to comment.

Quitelife

To be fair to JP he built a top class building on O Connell Street and has gifted it to the city for free . Listening to people here he’d have been better off if he did nothing and let the building that was there decay like a lot of the city centre .

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122788587#Comment_122788587

Yes nothing would have been better.

A derelict 4 storey building is much better than a derelict 8 storey one.

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122788587#Comment_122788587

Well it's not exactly free is it? It comes with stipulations that a business losing €500k a year must be kept open. It would cost Limerick taxpayers a lot of money.

breezy1985

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122789824#Comment_122789824

I heard someone who works there yesterday trying to tell her friend that the place is packed, making a fortune in the shop and JP was going to give the council all the money needed to cover it staying open.

You just can't win when dealing with people who just want to block their ears and bleat on about "DE COUNCIL"