My son shooting with my gun?

gbrad2x

Hi Folks

Quick query becuse Im seeing conflicting info on this one

I have a firearms certifcate and am a member of a clay pidgeon club.I wanted to get my son ( aged 16, 17 next month) membership and allow him use my gun legally etc.

Can somebody clarify whether he can obtain a firearms certificate on MY gun or whether it must be a training certificate?

Thanks,

Gerry

Cass

It can be either.

A training certificate is aimed at juniors to the sport, so anyone between the ages of 14 to 16. However anyone of any age can get one.

The limitations of a training certificate are that the person getting it must always be accompanied by the "original" license holder and they must supervise the training certificate holder. The person with the training certificate cannot be in possession of the firearm by themself nor can they store it in their home (if they lived separately to the "original" license holder.

As your Son is 16 or older he can get a joint license on the firearm. There are no limitations and the license, while referred to as a joint license, has no such legal standing, meaning it is a full license in every way. This allows your son to possess and use the firearm whether you are present or supervising him or not

If applying for the full license, in section 4.1 of the FCA1 just include your license certificate number and it'll be known he is licensing your firearm

gbrad2x

Hi Cass,

Thanks a million for that detailed reply it covers many of my questions .

Id be inclined to go the training certification option since he will be shooting alongside myself at all times.

On that note, would it be a requirement for him to compete the Nargc proficiency course to justify the training certificate?

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122721211#Comment_122721211

I'd err on the side of a "full" cert, since there is no disadvantage or needing to re-licence if within the 3 year lifespan he wants to go out shooting without yourself.

Otherwise it would mean applying for a full cert at that time and paying €80 on top of the €40 a training cert costs.
A training cert also does not get a renewal like full certs, ie you will not get a prepopulated form out for a training cert like a full one.
Bar the €80 fee there really isn't much downside to a full cert at 16, and a fair few upsides.

And yes, your son will need to prove competence, whether that be by the NARGC course, CSI, IFA, gun dealer's proficiency course, etc. Your clay club may even do a competence course, it'd be worth inquiring.

IFA and CSI do discounts on their courses for members also, so that'd be worth looking at to cut the cost if you are a member of either.

BSA International

A course referred to above is one way to prove competence. if the lad is on a training certificate and his father, in writing,sstates he has trained the young lad and that in his opinion the lad is competent then the Super SHOULD accept that as proof of confidence.

A lot ofc these "courses" are money rackets !

gbrad2x

Thanks for the info - Having taken the NARGC course, I found it interesting and necessary given that I was a complete beginner.

I thought that proof of competence wasn't necessary for the training certificate option, given that Id be training him.

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122721911#Comment_122721911

Competence is required for all certificates, full and training. The field is mandatory and what AGS want to avoid is someone who is a complete beginner handling a firearm, even under supervision per the training cert's requirements.

For all firearms certificates - "proof of competence in the use of the firearm concerned,".

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122721720#Comment_122721720

Agree, a lot of courses are money rackets, proficiency and deer, and have no real training value as they are designed to allow the box to be ticked on the form.
I have heard good things from the IFA and CSI courses recently hence mentioning them. The NARGC ones are very variable depending on the course instructor so it is hard to blanket recommend them.

And on the opinion of someone already licenced stating that someone else is competent, I doubt AGS would accept that. I've never heard of something like that being accepted either, bar a trainer in the DF who sent a letter accompanying a soldier's application stating that he was competent because he had done firearms training in the DF.
Unless that person is deemed to be sufficiently knowledgeable to train someone, ie a gun dealer, trainer with another org, trainer with training credentials, DF trainer, etc.

I mean some lads come out of deer courses under the impression that 223 is a sufficient caliber for deer hunting, so in some cases even trainers aren't competent to be running the courses that they do, let alone a regular licence holder.

Grizzly 45

And on the opinion of someone already licenced stating that someone else is competent, I doubt AGS would accept that. I've never heard of something like that being accepted either

I'd give it a "depends" answer.

I taught my better half how to shoot rifle, shotgun & pistol over the years and I am willing to sign off that She is competent.

But as she had a license for her 410 pre-2008 legislation,maybe it was considered good enough,as no one asked her this when she changed to her .22 rifle after a hiatus of some years of being gun-free.

Again, this is a whole grey mass and mess as there are no official curricula laid down by the state/AGS of what must be taught,for how long and by whom and what are their required qualifications to teach it. So if someone is willing to go to bat after instructing you and believes you are competent after explaining and hammering into you the four most basic rules of safety be they your parent or someone in an organisation or club as it stands now both are good if they will sign off on it.

If your FO/Super says that isn't good enough, ask them what organisational instruction they will accept for someone to be qualified

BSA International

How did any of us learn before there were courses?

I had military training and was a military instructor.

Senior members of my game club tutored me on the rules & customs of game & vermin shooting, for free.

My civvy range when I joined ran safety/induction training for new members and it was free.

All NARGC clubs are supposed to have a safety officer. They should be capabable of training new members for free.

Did the deer stalking course as I now have to to get a deer shooting licence, never stalked deer, and found it beneficial on the subject.

Those capable of training should do it to help promote our sport & not do it for financial gain.

If someone has a licence they are deemed competent so they should be able to deem someone else competent if they have trained them.

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122723411#Comment_122723411

Thing is courses have been around for a long time now, so what happened before them isn't really here or there, times have moved on and likely not for the better.
Back in the day near everyone learned from their fathers, but I haven't heard of any Super accepting that for a long time.

I don't have much issue with the cost(which is not too high thanks to the competition between orgs for competence courses) if the course content actually merits the cost, but not as a tickbox exercise.

Someone being competent to shoot and competent to train someone else also isn't necessarily the same thing, hence why you don't have John Joe from down the road doing competency courses. Everyone who has been on any range(civilian or military) for long enough has seen some carry on which would bring into question the competence of those involved.

There is also the question of what proof can be provided by an ordinary licence holder that would be acceptable both the AGS and the law, "proof of competence in the use of the firearm concerned,". Which also raises the interesting point that if you do an NARGC course that for example that covers shotguns and rifles, would you then not be deemed competent to licence a pistol?
Something that I think was twigged by course providers since the last IFA one I saw organised noted shotgun, rifle and pistol specifically.

A lot of guys out there who are normal licence holders would be competent to teach someone how to shoot, the point is that I doubt it would be acceptable to AGS, particularly given how the law is worded.

gbrad2x

I suppose training courses and standards inform people of best practices and probably save lives and prevent horrific injuries .

Of course those stats are unavailable so its not easy to prove this, in the same way that they driver theory test may or may not prevent more accidents on our roads.

They might be a money making racket but even if 1 persons life was saved and a few feet/hands remained intact, then the courses are probably worth it.

Cass

I was asked for a course certificate when I was applying for my young lad to be licensed on my shotgun. It was by the FO. I asked him what was the point of the training license if someone has to be shown to be competent to attain one in the same manner as a person seeking a full license would.

We went back and forth with him not really understanding either my point or the whole idea of a training licence, which is to gain competence before getting a full license, and so told him to just submit the application as it was.

The training license was granted, especially as I had included additional information with the FCA1 stating that the purpose of the training license was to obtain experience and competence under the supervision of someone deemed already to hold those values, me.

Not saying it's guaranteed but I presume the Super had enough common sense to understand that to demand the same level of competency from someone applying for a training license (the clue is in the name) as someone applying for a full license was contradictory and perhaps somewhat asinine.

Grizzly 45

All in all.

We must be doing something right in Ireland with our firearms saftey training. We don't have mass casualty events every hunting season like in some US states or in Italy when bird season starts.

If anything civilian firearms accident-related happens it is a newsworthy event in Ireland. Germany with its ultra-strict safety and lengthy sport shooter and hunter training has had in the last 3 years more hunting and sports shooting accidents than we have had in two decades.Even our suicide rate with civilian-owned firearms is on an EU scale in the 0.0001% per head of population that owns guns.

So if it aint broken…

alex90

Does the style of hunting in europe have anything to do with it? The majority of hunting is driven hunts isnt it, with lots of people in the same area. And the number of hunters?

Grizzly 45

Possibly,but there isn't FIK any hard data on what types of hunting styles cause the most accidents.

Driven hunts are proably the more unnerving to us the Irish hunter, but they are almost done like a German military manouver where everyone knows where their people are on the line and their safe shot, don't shoot zones.

The last two German hunting accidents I know of were lads up in high seats shooting at what they mistook for Wild boar in near darkness on a cornfield boundary and another with a [then] illegal thermal sight who shot a fellow out for a stroll on an open country road and claimed he thought it was a deer…

The US has both driven and single hunts,but after seeing how a couple of them handled their guns on a driven shoot in Hungary once and got rightly bollocked out my cousin for sloppy gun handling. I'd put a lot of their hunting accidents down to buck fever and sloppy gun safety. Tim Waltz Kamalas Vice president running mate and graduate of the Elmer Fudd school of Hunting and gun ownership latest video of him messing about with a semi-auto shotgun trying to load it.Is a good example of what I'm on about

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122731039#Comment_122731039

To be fair it was his first time holding a gun so some allowances have to be made 😂

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122731048#Comment_122731048

Ten years of National Gaurd training and claiming an AR15 is the same as his issued service select fire M4 and that "weapons of war have no place in America!" notwithstanding.