Electric scooter on a B-license

unkel

Apologies if it has been asked before, a quick search doesn't find it for me. I have the AM category on my driving license, this entitles me to ride a scooter with a combustion engine up to 50cc and a max speed of 45km/h, provided it is of course taxed and insured

Does the same apply to an electric scooter with the same max speed?

Two examples of electric scooter for sale on Donedeal at the moment:

https://www.donedeal.ie/scooters-for-sale/niu-other-2021/37796417

https://www.donedeal.ie/scooters-for-sale/vmoto-other-2023/36358722

Gumbo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058369454/electric-scooter-on-a-b-license

I’ve been looking at EV Scooters in the UK for the last year. Specifically the SC01/ Seat Mo versions.

They are equivalent of 125cc so it depends on the kw rating now days.

I have my full bike licence nearly 20 years but the categories have changed since.

JP 1800

For an AM licence "The machine must have a cylinder capacity not exceeding 50 cc, in the case of an internal combustion engine, or a maximum continuous rated power of no more than 4 kilowatts in the case of an electric motor. The vehicle must have a design speed of at least 25 km/h but not more than 45 km/h.

JP 1800

I would ring for quotes on those scooters before going any further, the insurance might be a problem if the company does not have those bikes on their database.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122628560#Comment_122628560

4kW is quite powerful for an electric motor, these have a ton of torque. That is welcome news. Do you happen to have any link to this by any chance?

JP 1800

From the RSA site

https://www.rsa.ie/services/learner-drivers/get-qualified/moped-and-light-quadricycle---am#:~:text=A%20category%20AM%20learner%20permit,known%20as%20Initial%20Basic%20Training.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122628743#Comment_122628743

Lol, I bet nothing near any of my old Ebike projects running off LiPo packs lol .

Not long after hitting 80 Km/hr "restricted" I said this is nuts and decommissioned the bike and that was the end of that for DIY ebikes !

Mad_Lad

OP don't limit yourself, just get an A motorbike license and you are free to ride what you want be it small electric or big CC motorbike or 125 motorbike or whatever you want.

personally speaking I'd rather a bit more poke than 45 Km/h in traffic rather than have cars up my arse all the time.

A 125 cc is far more practical can be got up to around 15 Hp, can fill up in seconds for 200+ km range, a lot more fun or you can ride a much more powerful electric bike.

Either way a lot better than those crappy battery scooters we see everywhere these days.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122631852#Comment_122631852

It would be mostly for local urban trips where the top speed is not the issue. I'd say a 4kW scooter is a lot faster away from the traffic lights than a 125cc motorbike that has only a fraction of the torque of an electric motor

For fun fast drives up the mountains, I have a Lotus Elan turbo 😁

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122631871#Comment_122631871

Crap I see you're the OP didn't catch that, wouldn't have expected you here lol

Well to be honest I find the back roads a lot more fun on the tmax despite it being a scooter, one real + for me even locally is not having to stop and pull into the grass verge to let traffic pass when on the tmax, I know you don't have that issue up in the smoke.

I can't wait to get a proper motorbike though.

A 4 Kw scooter even vs the Honda Cub 125, hmmm, the cub is 9 Kw and one of the lowest powers you get in a 125, if you don't know the Honda Cub 125, it's the most sold vehicle in history, the Cub that is, no other vehicle has sold in such large numbers but it's really cool looking and practical with a top box. I really like the Honda C90 but wouldn't mind the C125 either.

Anyway, there are 125s with nearly twice the power @ around 15 Kw so not sure a 4 Kw battery scooter would be as fast off the line but is off the line performance your priority ?

Either way, I'd say if you're thinking of 2 wheels like that then go for your A full bike license and it will open up a lot more bikes for you. I guarantee you will love 2 wheels a lot more than any car. IF you got the A license then you can ride absolutely anything from low power electric bike to high power electric bike to any form of motorbike or scooter you desire.

unkel

You still don't seem to understand that BHP is pretty meaningless when it comes to acceleration, torque is what matters there, in particular torque from idle. Which is bad in combustion vehicles and good in electric vehicles. I like the instant torque from electric vehicles because I want to be away from the lights very quickly.

So, in case it wasn't already very clear from my original post, thanks for the suggestion, but I have no intention to buy a combustion 2 wheeler at this stage, so no point to further mention it. I am only considering electric scooters

Mad_Lad

lol 😆

unkel

Rang Carole Nash and 3rd party insurance with zero excess and with a 2k mile annual limit on the Niu scooter I linked above is €247. More than I was hoping it would be. Is this good or bad in people's experience? Any other insurers I should try?

geotrig

not sure you'd get much lower, id say there min policy prices for most is in or around 200-210 ish i think could be a buit lower. but there is principle and axa i think directly.

GBX

You have small pool of insurance companies to try:

Liberty
Carole Nash
Principal
Axa

Give the other 3 a shout and hopefully it comes down. But cant see it dropping by much.

JP 1800

You will have no NCB so getting the 250 qoute is an achievement.

unkel

The quote is through Carole Nash with Axa as the insurer. I rang Liberty as well and they don't insure anything electric on 2 wheels 🙄 even though my Tesla Model S is with them. Rang Principle and they don't have the scooter on their list, promised to ring me back, which didn't happen. So I guess I will just go with Carole Nash

Thanks for the suggestions, much appreciated!

unkel

Result. Carole Nash was third party cover only, max 2k miles, no perks and no pillion covered (underwritten by AXA). Now I got fully comprehensive with AXA directly, unlimited mileage, breakdown cover and pillion covered for €243

geotrig

Thats a good fair price can't complain with that for 1st time insurance, have to say I like the look of that niu moved, well wear

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122638593#Comment_122638593

Like the look of the NIU too. Haven't got it yet though, there is some problem getting it to start, probably app related

I got my inspiration to get one, a NIU in particular, after this randomly came up in my playlist last month. Guy trying to ride a NIU electric moped from the UK to Italy purely on solar PV:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nxnLryAItsk&list=PLKdBO8TXUFBiAVpwKaLu4pM1spAeKpU64

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122631871#Comment_122631871

Top speed when riding an AM licenced bike is an issue even in urban areas. You will be topped out 5km/h less than the urban speed limit so you will leave the traffic for dead at the lights only to be passed 1 second later when they get to 50, unless you ride assertively you'll end up riding in the gutter.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122646747#Comment_122646747

Yes that's a concern. You can buy a new motherboard / controller that will up the max speed to 60km/h but I'm sure the insurer won't like that

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122647550#Comment_122647550

60km/h requires an A1 licence and it's 5 penalty points if caught doing 60km/h on an AM licence, you're insurance isn't valid.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122646747#Comment_122646747

There's many 50 Km/h zones where drivers will force a bike like that off the road because they will ride 60 or more and it's no joke when on 2 wheels, especially a toy like that above. It's a different ball game be better off to get something that can do 100 Km/hr like one of the zero bikes which can hit probably 160 Km/h I don't know these days what they got really, once someone realises the fun 2 wheels offers if they have that extra power and speed they would see cars as a really boring way to get around.

Deagol

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122632021#Comment_122632021

It's possible you actually fail to understand that torque on the motorbike is much less important than for a car at a standstill. The PTW of a motorbike / inertia is much different to a car. And the ability of the single small contact path (motorcycle tyre is rounded not flat like a car, and only one drive wheel 99.9% of the time) to transfer torque without losing traction is much different also. That and the ability to keep the front wheel from heading skywards… I'd be willing to be a Cub 90 even never mind a 12kw 125cc motorbike would easily match a 4kw electric scooter.

However, while I have 35 years experience driving motorcycles from 50cc to 1300cc, I've never driven an electric scooter so it's possible I'm overestimating one and underestimating t'other. But I doubt it :D

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122665558#Comment_122665558

You'd be surprised. Several motorbikes have challenged me in my Tesla at traffic lights and I have been childish enough to take them on. They all lost, although their PTW was no doubt always far better than my 2.2 tonne car. Torque is what it is all about. Instant torque.

The current Tesla Model S has a quicker 0-60 time than any motorbike or hypercar ever made. Even quicker than a Formula 1 car.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122665588#Comment_122665588

Most motorcyclists just want to ride and enjoy the experience and listen to the engine and exhaust, change gears, torque means nothing to most normal people, even a 500 cc motorcycle will accelerate faster than the majority of family cars out there and most people are happy with the performance and fun which motorcycling provides, Driving a big heavy EV in straight line gets boring along with the range and recharge times.

0-100 Km/h times doesn't matter to the Adrenalin junkies who ride motorcycles, it's the sheer top end speed that gives them the fix they crave, the fact any car can go 0-100 in a blink of an eye is meaningless. Torque of course matters but not in the way it matters to you.

unkel

Finally picked up the Niu scooter today 😀

Hopefully get a chance to go for a ride tomorrow. The scooter is lovely, like new. Only 988 miles on the clock. Very decent spec on these with LED lights, cruise control and even a slick app. It also came with a large optional back box, that could store a helmet. Had to take it off, to transport the scooter in my small van

turbodiesel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122692161#Comment_122692161

Wear well.

I'm pretty sure Moto4u in Rathfarmham were selling them so might be worth considering if it needs anything like tyres.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122692231#Comment_122692231

Nice one, thank you. Looking forward to riding it tomorrow :-)

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122692161#Comment_122692161

lol 6 foot what on that yoke, please post a pic of you on it I got to see !

Well wear anyway. I just might encourage you to get the full A license , I bet it won't be long before you find yourself wanting more power and speed, it's inevitable really once you realise how much fun 2 wheels are but you will notice a big difference vs ebikes being able to ride on the road properly with proper lights and indicators, brake lights etc.

Pop into bikeworld just off the Longmile they have electric motor bikes in there.

I don't know if Zero are available in Ireland ?

unkel

First ride and it was very slow. Hadn't bothered to check the tyres, which turned out to be very low. Pumped them to the recommended settings and then the scooter did 29mph on the flat, its limited speed. Was plenty fast for me for a first spin on wet local roads 😂

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122699530#Comment_122699530

Well, don't say I didn't warn you, the need for more acceleration and speed is inevitable, go to bike world on longmile road just to see what electric motorbikes they have, I remember seeing one but have no idea of the specs but you'd need at least A1 license for it but if doing all that better off go for A license, I don't know , maybe bike world have more powerful electric motorbikes, they don't advertise a lot of their stock online.

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122699530#Comment_122699530

That's not legal with your licence, AM is restricted to 45km/h

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122700515#Comment_122700515

It's the indicated speed, it is very likely it's a bit optimistic. Like all motorbikes and cars are too, they have to be legally. They can't indicate a speed below the actual speed.

Mad_Lad

I may have missed it, but what is the model ?

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122700781#Comment_122700781

Niu M+ Sport

Mad_Lad

Wait now, what License do you need for that ?

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122702696#Comment_122702696

AM (comes with my car driving license)

Mad_Lad

I'd have to look at my license must have AM on it too then.

Be interesting to know how you get on with cars up your ass.

unkel

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122702909#Comment_122702909

Depends on how long you got it. I think they stopped automatically giving you AM license with a B license about 20 years ago or so, but could be wrong there

unkel

Went into bikeworld today and was surprised at how many electric bikes they had. This looked very cool:

Until I looked up the specs, they are beyond pathetic:

I mean 9kW peak power and a battery of just 3kWh?

If I ever progress from AM, I would have to go full A license

Mad_Lad

Yeah I saw that bike last time I was in there, I had a right chuckle myself.

Here's one of the Zero motorcycles with claimed City range of 288 Kms and around 130 Kms at highway speeds whatever that is.

17.3 Kwh battery. 15.2 usable.

https://zeromotorcycles.com/en-gb/model/zero-dsrx

Better specs here.

https://www.advpulse.com/adv-news/zero-dsrx-electric-adventure-motorcycle-first-look/

100 Hp and 225 Nm of torque but if I remember correctly all of the power is only available in bursts, not sustained.

The charge times are pathetic though, f1ck that !

unkel

So Zero are the only show in town really when it comes to slightly more powerful electric motorbikes / scooters? All the others they had in bikeworld were around the same spec as the Kawasaki at best. I know BMW have some very cool looking scooters but they are overpriced and underpowered too

Zeros start at an about €25k, which would be way out of budget for me. So I either have to convert a bike myself to electric or work with a bike already converted by someone else. Or have another look at getting a more serious electric bike in maybe 5 years time 😂

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122703013#Comment_122703013

Sur ron have a road bike that is reasonable enough. There are a few other similar bikes but they aren't available here and I one manufacturer has already gone belly up.

I always thought that there would be a great market for an 80 80 80 electric motorbike. It's got an 80km range, 80km/h top speed and weights less than 80kg so ideal for commuting. There are already a lot of off road options like this but no road legal ones.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122703013#Comment_122703013

"So Zero are the only show in town really when it comes to slightly more powerful electric motorbikes / scooters?"

Not slightly more powerful than the bikes you saw in Bikeworld but seriously more powerful, 100 Hp and 166 lb-ft torque, to put that into perspective, a Honda NT1100 has 1000 CC , 100 Hp and 77.4 lb/ft torque.

It weighs similar too around 250 Kg for the Honda vs Zero.

The big difference of course is the claimed 400 Km range vs Zero's claim of around 135 Kms on the "highway" and the 1 min or less refill time, maybe another 5 mins to get in and pay etc vs 1 hr 30 mins for the Zero or with DC 1 hr to what 80 % if I remember correctly.

The 9kw 3 Kwh Kawasaki you saw for 9.5 K is really crap when you could buy a lovely little Cub 125 and it will go anywhere any time with no restrictions for a lot less money or a 2nd hand 125 CC with more power.

GBX

The scary thing about scooters, be they electric or otherwise is how many ride them in towards the left side of the road. It invites car drivers to push by as they with cyclists.

Most on scooters won't be traveling great distances but they'd do themselves a huge service by being more pronounced in the lane.

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122703718#Comment_122703718

I think we need to define what kind of scooter we're referring to because it can get confusing. Let's say kids battery scooters you see everyone on now , is that what you mean ? these can't ride in traffic as they're too slow they'd be lashed out of it.

A 45 km/h scooter like what Unkel got ? yeah, I don't know about that, he's got the proper lights, indicators, brake lights so he could ride in the centre of the road a lot safer but the thing is that not a lot of drivers will tolerate riding at 45 Km/h or less and that will p1ss them off, there's loads of car drivers doing 60 km/h + in 50 km/h zones. Even doing 80 in an 80 Zone cagers want to push me off the road out here in the sticks , car drivers really do not know how fast they're driving in today's modern refined cars.

But yes, indeed, you got to keep good lane positioning on the roads or cars will come up on your left and right, this is why getting proper bike training would make Unkle and others a lot more aware of the dangers bikers face, one being the wrong position on a roundabout where you're going straight but not in the centre of the lane, Unkel might do it the bicycle way "which is still wrong by the way" and tend to be tight to the left which you'd only do if going left. That's one reason I recommended he just be done with it and get the A license which then opens the door to do what he likes but he will have got 3 days IBT and a couple of lessons with an instructor. I think once he gets a taste for 2 wheel riding he will want a lot more soon enough.

Mad_Lad

I checked the Niu site, they have a 7.5 Kw bike that will do claimed 110 Km/h and 5.2 Kwh battery for 8,000 Euro then whatever it is in Ireland once VRT is paid or whatever it is on EV bikes ?

Says, "coming soon" I didn't see any info on charge times, that's the biggest issue though when it comes to electric.

At least it can do 110 Km/h.

unkel

First wee 25km round trip at full throttle (30-31mph indicated) and it used 33% battery. Not bad at all. Would be a good commuter scooter for the Dublin area for sure

Copped fairly early on that I simply need to ride in the middle of the lane. @GBX - I presume that's what you mean with "more pronounced in the lane"?

In start stop urban traffic, the speed is adequate, compensated by the acceleration which is a bit quicker than most cars use in practice. On local more open roads (60km/h) people want to overtake you, which is fine, but a faster riding bike would have been safer for sure as someone overtaking gave me mild anxiety

All my local faster roads (80km/h) have bus lanes, which is better. Could already see the big benefits of two wheels as it is a Friday early afternoon and traffic is building up. Could not have done this trip faster in any car in these circumstances

Also had a funny moment where a big combustion motorbike had gone to the start of the queue at the traffic lights. I joined him and when the light went green, for the first half a second or so I was ahead of him as that's the benefit of immediate full torque without having to operate a clutch, get some revs going etc. Even on a tiny little moped😀

Mad_Lad

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122708567#Comment_122708567

LOL the bike wasn't even trying to beat you off the line !

Yeah I knew it wouldn't take long before you want higher speeds but yes, you're far better off than being on those crap kids scooters.

Indeed this is what we meant by lane presence, same applies at roundabouts if you're going straight keep in the right hand of the lane because if you approach in the left part of the lane cars will think you're going left.

Keep nearer to the centre line then when on the road because cars won't think twice about forcing you to move over, if you don't give them the room they won't and don't think because the limit is 50 Km/h that drivers won't get p1ssed off because few keep to the 50 limit.

yeah I had said in the EV section about the benefits of 2 wheels be the Petrol or battery and you know already so instead of blocking off the councils blocking off lanes to traffic for empty cycle lanes they should promote scooters, motorcycles instead and it would be a good start at getting a lot of cars and SUV off the road and might actually make getting around easier.

I still think you'd be better off going for the A license use the instructors bike, do theory test, pass that get IBT, pass that get learner permit, lessons, take test on instructor bike, pass test and then you got A license for life. When you want more power then you're set to get whatever bike you want and instead of spending more on cars you will have more for the fast bike should you want. You have to have your learner permit 6 months before you can apply for the test.