11 Generator stuck in Dublin port for over a year because they are to heavy for M50

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/generators-to-combat-power-shortages-are-stuck-at-dublin-port-as-they-are-too-heavy-for-m50/a532597380.html

Read this yesterday, surprised it wasn't posted.

Begs the question: "Is anybody actually managing/planning these kind of big infra projects"

It's quite incredible. I dunno if the story has been sensationalised, but even still if it's factually correct, it's pretty bad news.

More than €10m worth of generator engines meant to tackle the State’s electricity supply shortage have been stranded in Dublin Port for over a year as they are too heavy to transport on the M50 toll bridge.

The machines were shipped to Ireland last summer by German manufacturer MAN Energy Solutions to be brought to two industrial estates in Dublin.

However, after the 11 engines arrived in Dublin Port, it was discovered they were too hefty for transport across the M50, weighing in at 275pc more than the design load for the West-Link toll bridge.

They have stayed in storage as engineers and local authorities try to work out how to safely bring them to their destination.

Today's News in 90 seconds - 25th August 2024

The engines were imported at a time of growing concern over the national grid and its ability to provide enough power at peak times and in winter.

In June last year, M50 Concession Ltd — which runs the motorway — said it had “serious concerns” at the use of the road for transporting the enormous “abnormal indivisible loads”.

They said they were ­worried over how seven bridges along the M50 would cope and especially the West-Link bridge, which crosses the Liffey.

A letter to Transport Infrastructure Ireland (TII) said “at this stage we reasonably believe that the proposed movement of the abnormal indivisible loads could cause damage” to the M50.

Cars crossing the M50 toll plaza in Dublin. Photo: Getty

A few days later, TII responded to say it shared those concerns about the proposal, which would have seen 13 separate trips carrying loads of 426 to 496 tonnes across the Liffey Valley.

The engines were destined for Grange Castle and Profile Park industrial estates in Dublin, and would have provided more than 200MW of back-up electricity

A letter said: “The [West-Link] bridge structures would never have been envisaged as being required to carry an abnormal load of 496 tonnes which is 275pc greater than the 180-tonne design load.”​

Two evaluations by engineers suggested that use of the M50 would be safe if certain conditions were met. These included a full escort for the abnormal loads, speeds of no more than 15kmh, travelling along the centre of the road, and no other vehicles on the West-Link bridge during the crossing.

However, TII and the motorway operators were unconvinced, and permission was not granted to use M50 for the transfer.

The engines were destined for Grange Castle and Profile Park industrial estates in Dublin, and would have provided more than 200MW of back-up electricity.

MAN Energy Solutions had planned to import 16 of the dual-fuel engines, with another reserve power plant proposed for Co Roscommon near Athlone.

A spokesman said: “An alternative transport route is under review with the local authorities.”

MrMusician18

This is a private company that was building (I'm guessing diesel/NG) peaker plants to capitalise on potential stress on the electricity grid and then didn't do its homework fully.

Can't really give out about TII and M50 refusing permission for an overweight load if the consequence is damage to vital public infrastructure.

As far as I can tell, grange castle is a Microsoft power plant. Ervia are behind Profile Park.

Charles Babbage

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122547751#Comment_122547751

Surely these devices could have been supplied partially disassembled so that they could have been transported.

bk

These aren't really a big infrastructure project, they are about as small as you can get for grid scale generators. They are pretty small generators compared to your typical big OCT gas generators in traditional power plants.

If I'm to guess, they were hoping to get away with a cheap transport option given their relatively smaller size compared to typical power plant generators.

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.man-es.com/company/press-releases/press-details/2023/01/12/man-energy-solutions-to-supply-dual-fuel-engines-for-irish-power-plants

SDCL to build 111 MW power plant in Dublin

Powered by 6 × MAN 18V51/60DF engines, the power plant at Dublin's Grange Castle Business Park will feed a total of 111 MW of electrical energy into the Irish grid where it will act as a peak shaver to cover peak loads.

Greener Ideas Limited to build two 100 MW power plants

Greener Ideas Limited, a joint venture between Mountside Partners Limited and Bord Gáis Energy – a subsidiary of Centrica plc, a private Irish utility – is developing the other two power plants. Each will employ 5 × MAN 18V51/60DF engines to provide 100 MW of electrical energy to the grid as back-up with one plant in Profile Park in Dublin, and the other near Athlone, Co. Roscommon.

https://www.man-es.com/docs/default-source/document-sync/man-51-60df-eng.pdf?sfvrsn=685c8034_3

18 valve engines weigh 416.8 t / 457.6 t for High efficiency with two-stage turbocharging

They are dual fuel gas / liquid (biofuel) engines

Beta Ray Bill

Sure sounds like a big project to me, and also major a issue.

Hopefully no public money went into this.

Sounds like the easiest solution is to buy a site at the port and build the plant there. (If being built there would satisfy the location requirements of where the power was being generated)

Surely large equipment like this has been transported before (Powerstation transformers and what not)

Strikes me a ship motor.

Edit: Ironically it the railway passes close by, maybe a Schnabel car? (dimensions permitting)

Edit2: 9 metres tall… forget it.

1123heavy

From the same maker of "The printer is too big" by any chance??

Padre_Pio

Any way to bring them in through Dun Laoghaire?

Del2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122548438#Comment_122548438

It's not the manufacturers fault if the customer doesn't read the specs. T

con747

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122548147#Comment_122548147

If they are 9 metres tall they wouldn't be going on any roads with overhead bridges, the highest is about 5.5 metres afaik. So no way could they have gone on the M50.

Pete_Cavan

The article above says that the West-Link bridge has a limit of 180-tonne design load!? Surely it would have more weight than that on it fairly regularly, possibly every day? Something doesn't add up with all this.

kippy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122548585#Comment_122548585

Probably a single vehicle design load limitation..….

McHardcore

They did suggest in the article that they stop all other traffic other than the load and it’s convoy vehicles.

But this should have been cleared with the road authorities before they bought the generators.

Field east

experienced a similar situation a few years ago in the Sudan A BIG generator being transported on a road from Port Sudan the Khartoum. Involved driving over a bridge built by the Chinese spanning the Nile. The generator was parked beside the road for months because it was reckoned to be too heavy.
solved by using a special trailer with ‘1000s’ of wheels to spread the load and by partially dismantling it.

Could the Irish problem be sorted by installing them in a location that will not have to use a bridge to get there - asalready suggested. It may need the installation of a few adequately gauged wires to connect to the grid. The work being done in-house can be done at cost since the ESB would be doing it.

How can the planners get such a basic situation SO WRONG?

sock.rocker*

http://www.irha.ie/wp-content/uploads/2019/02/vehicle_weights__dimensions_limits.pdf

Looks like regulations say roughly a meter for every 5 tonnes, so it would have to be a ~100m long system to spread that much weight.. Though over two lanes, 50m?

Pete_Cavan

If the thing is really 9m high (or even half of that!), it won't fit in the DPT or under any of the railway bridges. The only route away from the Port would be at Killester to the north or Lansdowne Road to south. Just getting to either of those locations (nevermind beyond them) would involve crossing a bridge and navigating residential streets and tight turns which wouldn't be possible with such a big load anyway.

As I said already, something doesn't add up with all this.

KrisW1001

From the destination, I'm pretty sure this is a private venture, so I doubt any of our money is being wasted here. Actually, TII may charge them a fortune for the transportation on the road network. Even if there's no damage, TII will be making them pay for bridge inspections before and after transit.

KaneToad

Tie loads of helium balloons to them?

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122548730#Comment_122548730

According to the spec posted by @Capt'n Midnight, They are 4.7 metre's wide. maybe they could be put on their side, although I doubt it.

It terms of disassembling them, you'd probably need the manufacturer to build a factory in the port, move them to the factory, disassemble them partially. Move them to their locations where two additional factories would be required to put them back together.

I'm guessing MAN would absolve themselves of any responsibility in such a scenario.

So the options are to either build the plant at the port or sell them on to someone else. Or possibly put them back on a ship and move them to another port where they can set up a power plant close by

ted1

could they bring them by rail ?

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122548856#Comment_122548856

It depends on the contract . I’ve bought similar generators and the contract will state at which point they become the responsibility of the buyer. They often push off dock, but we insist on delivery to site

Tow

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122548665#Comment_122548665

They could install in Dublin Port, or move it a few hundred meters across the Liffey to the Pigeon House.

KrisW1001

Putting them in the Port is no good when they’re supposed to be powering a datacentre on the other side of the city. The press release says they’ll be grid connected, which is true, but the primary purpose is to operate as an electricity supply to a datacentre at Grange Castle.

Microsoft plans to construct a 170MW on-site power plant alongside 21 diesel generators in a bid to offset the high-energy demand from the facilities.

[…]

In its application to the EPA, Microsoft is seeking permission to build a standby 170MW gas-fired power plant comprising 22 generators and 22 flue chimneys because its new data centers are “located in what is noted as a constrained area in terms of electrical grid capacity”.

Source: Microsoft planning 170MW gas power plant at Dublin campus - DCD (datacenterdynamics.com)

As I said, this is a private enterprise, and it’s their contractor’s fault for not checking on the route to the installation site before ordering the plant…

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122548947#Comment_122548947

there’s no capacity. There’s 2 new BESS sites down there along with some 2 new generator.

They also don’t own the land and can’t connect it directly to the datacentre , they’d need a new traffic, which has about a 3 year lead time at the moment

Sam Russell

Why not move them by sea to Moneypoint and connect to the grid and replace the coal plants or reduce their use?

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122548447#Comment_122548447

they'd still have to cross bridges, and fit under other bridges. What's the weight limit on the M50 viaduct at Cherrywood?

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122548147#Comment_122548147

19MW each, while a decent size for a Data Center, they are pretty small for grid sized generation. To put in context a typical natural gas generator in power plants are around 400MW.

I'm guessing they thought that with the small size they could get away with less planning and cheaper transport then goes into building the bigger power plants.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122549693#Comment_122549693

I don't think you would need to go near any bridges, but you'd need to go the wrong way up some streets and close a section of the M50 to remove the centre barriers so the truck can cross the road directly instead of going over the flyover.

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122549693#Comment_122549693

They'd get around that if they sent the load down the wrong side of the M50 and then used the emergency crossover. One has to presume the height isn't a problem, that it can be transported on its side. It would show a complete lack of planning if it was too tall.

The bridge at Edmondstown remains an issue though. Most of the other bridges are short span where an abnormal load trailer would be longer and span across.

They clearly have no easy or cheap solution, like putting them on a barge to Dun Laoghaire otherwise they wouldn't be sitting in port. I guess if they don't get a way of getting them to site, they'll sell them or MAN takes them back and they get something modular instead.

SeanW

How is such equipment usually transported?

AlanG

Amazing they hadn't planned for this before shipping the generators. That said 10 millino for 11 of them seems remarkably cheap given the price of steel alone. Perhps they bought a batch at a knock down price without a full plan for their use.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122549306#Comment_122549306

because ESB own MoneyPoint. And if they are Gas , there’s no supply to fuel them. If they are diesel. Then there’s not much benefit

artanevilla

Is it just the bridge that's the issue?

gjim

Wouldn't a Chinook or something like that be well capable of lugging them? Don't know anything about heavy lift helicopters wouldn't a 5,000kg payload be manageable?

alias no.9

How are they planning on getting them to the M50 toll bridge if they're 9m tall? They'll not fit through the port tunnel and if they have to go on regular roads, why not avoid the M50 in it's entirety?

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122551196#Comment_122551196

It's 450tonnes. You'd need 90 Chinooks to lift one.

AndyBoBandy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122549754#Comment_122549754

We are installing 6x 22MW turbines in North Wall. They weigh 22 tonnes and they come in on the back of a truck, on the ferry, Essentially they are a CF6 jet engine, but set up for power generation. If anyone has flown on a wide body Aer Lingus Airbus A330, thats got CF6 engines. Can run on gas or liquid fuel. Takes a bit longer to set up than a 'drop in' diesel, but much lighter, cleaner and more efficient.. but data centres don't care about cleaner air.

132 tonnes total for 132MW generating capacity.

kravmaga

Give them to the Ukraine , they are desperate for any kind of generators after their energy plants/ infrastructure have being pounded by Russian missiles over the past 48 hours.

Ship the 11 generators to Odesa, Ukraine , do some sort of deal with the Ukrainian government who have an Embassy here in Dublin 4.

ted1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122551325#Comment_122551325

aren’t they really expensive. Absolutely madness. No way a commercial business would pay that.

ted1

Who do you think owns them? Nothing to do with the government, the data centre operator would need to do that deal

Cookiemunster

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122551703#Comment_122551703

We (the state) don't own them, so they're not ours to give away. As mentioned earlier in the thread they're destined for power plants owned by Microsoft and Evira.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122552679#Comment_122552679

Microsoft have no longer the need for them as the PP has been refused.

Beta Ray Bill

I'd love to go and see them.

I wonder can you just walk in and take a look?

9 Metres tall and there's 11 of them, pretty hard to hide.

Sam Russell

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122553320#Comment_122553320

I wonder who ordered them without checking the size?

That is taller than the average house. How did they move them from the manufacturer to the ship?

bk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122553340#Comment_122553340

I don't know which factory produced them, but it looks like a lot of their factories are in ports right next to the sea, so probably directly to the ship:

https://www.man-es.com/company/production-locations

AndyBoBandy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122551720#Comment_122551720

There are 2x 75MW Gas Turbines (6F) in Aughinish Alumnia in Limerick, which is a commercial (Russian) business.

Granted they require huge amounts of energy (steam) to process the bauxite there, but while they are burning gas to make steam in the heat recovery steam generators, they are selling the bi product (electricity) to the grid….

Calahonda52

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122550029#Comment_122550029

Free with Amazon Prime😎

[The road is long

With many a winding turn

That leads us to who knows where, who knows where

But I'm strong

Strong enough to carry him

He ain't heavy, he's my brother]

Calahonda52

IIRC the MP setup is for unloading bulk coal onto conveyor belts

josip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122553320#Comment_122553320

Are these they?

Beta Ray Bill

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122553552#Comment_122553552

I'm gonna guess yes. I think that part of the port is owned by Boliden Mining (Tara Mines)
What maps site are you using there?

josip

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122553596#Comment_122553596

Google Earth; that is from March this year and doesn't show in Google Maps Satellite view.