German court jails woman for insulting convicted rapist.

political analyst

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/06/28/german-woman-given-harsher-sentence-than-rapist-for-calling/

In Hamburg, 20-year-old Maja R was found guilty of defamation because she called a young male who was one of a gang of nine that raped at 15-year-old girl in a park in that city in 2020 a "disgraceful rapist pig" and a "disgusting freak". She made those comments in a direct message to him via Whatsapp after his name and number were leaked on Snapchat. She also told him he "couldn't go anywhere without getting kicked in the face" and said "Let's hope you are just locked away."

Due to his age, he only got a suspended sentence. Maja R was jailed for a weekend for her comments because of her previous conviction for theft and her failure to attend the court hearing for the case. Only 1 member of the gang was jailed. The case has laid bare Germany's harsh defamation laws, which criminalise causing offence with even mild slurs like "idiot" and can lead to up to 2 years in prison.

Just for context, here's an interview with the judge who presided over the rape trial. The interview was published in Der Spiegel on 22 March 2024 and can be read on the following Reddit page.

https://www.reddit.com/r/stupidpol/comments/1dnnv0g/about_that_migrant_gang_rape_in_hamburg/?rdt=55803

Here's a summary of what Judge Anne Maier-Goering said in the interview (and a disclaimer on my part: The following points are the judge's, not mine):

According to the German understanding of punishment, the primary goal of legal consequences are not retribution, but above all that the accused does not commit any new crimes. This is especially true in juvenile criminal law. 

The proceedings were not in public. The court's explanatory statement of the verdict was primarily addressed to those involved in the proceedings, the defendants, the defense attorneys, the joint plaintiff and the public prosecutor. Therefore, only those involved in the proceedings know the whole truth. That is a good thing, because it protects the plaintiff (the victim) in particular, who remembers almost nothing from the night of the crime. She should not be retraumatized by new information that becomes public. In the short public verdict announcement, I therefore left out many details - as in this interview - that also concerned the plaintiff's behavior and that were very crucial for the determination of legal consequences. 

The incident did not involve physical violence. The victim willingly went with the defendants. But they took advantage of her severely mentally and physically impaired state - behaviour that would not have been punishable in Germany until November 2016, and everyone would have been acquitted. That is why what was reported in the "Bild" newspaper is so irresponsible and inflammatory: "Nine barbarians attack a young girl. With their orgy of violence, the rapists destroy a child's soul." That is deliberate spreading of fake news. It crosses a line and turns the general public against the justice system.

Why is it that such harsh laws on defamation are still in place in Germany? One would've assumed that the German authorities would have learned from the obvious horrors of the past 100 years of their country's history.

Francie Barrett

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058357788/german-court-jails-woman-for-insulting-convicted-rapist

Four of the juvenile sentences imposed were suspended on probation with comprehensive sanctions and instructions for educational support.

Marxist ideology is wonderful.

They really think that they can just "teach" rapists not to rape other people.

Strumms

so a convicted rapist of an underage girl is enabled to become a victim by a headbanger judge who convicted another person who used fair and accurate language to describe the rapist..….

What…a…time…to…be…alive 🥱

susan678

So if I was in Germany I could go to jail for saying this judge is a waste and a total wnaker.

endacl

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320053#Comment_122320053

‘Marxist ideology’? The workers owning the means of production? What does that have to do with defamation? I’m beginning to think you may not fully understand the terms you use Francie…

Rustyman101

Absolutely scandalous decision, hurty words get more punishment than physical actions.

We are collectively ****** as a society if this becomes the norm.

I'd imagine Helen & ROG would be in favour of this logic.

How did we end up on this road, some of the scenario's of the last 2 years have been like something out of a dystopian fiction novel.

Would love to know the plan and more specifically the out come........

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320053#Comment_122320053

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320147#Comment_122320147

what the livin fcuk!

id love to know what this has to do with Marxism, seriously i would, since ive no idea what the craic is with marxism?

…looking forward to your explanation?

silverharp

I remember in the early 90's wishing I'd lived in Germany , they seemed streets ahead of Ireland or the UK at the time and erm my family have 2nd German passports, now I'd veto any permanent move there, its going to the dogs at a rapid pace.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320237#Comment_122320237

family living in berlin, tis all good, far superior public transport etc….

Jequ0n

Harsh, but I suspect that her words had been interpreted in a racist context (which would be even more worrying).

The rape case had been a right mess and the suspended sentences were large due to lack of concrete evidence. It was not helped by the fact that the victim had been extremely drunk either. It’s actually a very interesting case if you read up on it in detail.

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320263#Comment_122320263

true in the sense that Germany has nice pockets, Berlin , Munich, if you like the quiet life there are lots of idyllic small towns in the south, however looking to the future if you lived there you would certainly have to switch off the news and avoid an increasing number of places, make sure your kids or grandkids are raised in a nice middle class German area and not some "nulticulti" sh1t hole where you would fear for their safety , apart from that its grand.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320281#Comment_122320281

shur pockets of ireland are slowly becoming no go areas to, its always been so, the area where im from has always been a no go, but tis grand really

silverharp

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320288#Comment_122320288

Direction-ally is the issue , I remember in the 90's, places like Essen looked ok , now I would draw a diameter of 1000km and say better not, stick to the safe and prosperous regions with the "good schools"

InAtFullBack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320280#Comment_122320280

It was not helped by the fact that the victim had been extremely drunk either.

Amazing how this level of victim blaming/shaming passes with absolute ease when the perpetrators of the crime are not natives.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320320#Comment_122320320

Where did I blame the victim? Reports mention her high blood alcohol level which is why the case was so dependent on witnesses and other evidence.

Manic Moran

Failure to appear in court leads to weekend in jail. (Para 2 of OP). News at 11.

Francie Barrett

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320147#Comment_122320147

Marxists view crime as a product of capitalist inequalities and see the criminal justice system as a tool of social control protecting capitalist interests. They advocate for rehabilitation through education and social reform rather than punishment.

No normal person would ever suggest "education support" as punishment for rape of a 15 year old, only a Marxist.

Calahonda52

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320053#Comment_122320053

why the other people qualifier

They really think that they can just "teach" rapists not to rape other people

Surprised you are in here given the track record of you know who in this arena.

Francie Barrett

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320417#Comment_122320417

Not really sure what point you are trying to make here.

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320310#Comment_122320310

I spent a year in Essen recently, place was fine. There were a few areas on the northern side of the city that didn't seem great alright, but I always felt far safer than in the rough part of any Irish city.

Mick ah

Gentlemen,

Germany has extremely harsh defamation laws. Everyone here knows this. You can't say someone is "X", however you can describe their behaviour as "X".

The problem I see with the German justice system is that it was designed for Germans. Who are orderly, generally work for the public good and who create a high trust environment for each other. (Obviously there are exceptions, but in smaller cities, towns and villages you wouldn't believe how safe it feels, even some of the bigger cities are grand).

The problem is, the system quite simply cannot deal with people from other cultures and most crimes are committed by non Germans or "Germans" with a "migration background". This is well known in the country, but you were a "nazi" for stating this up until maybe 10 years ago.

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320263#Comment_122320263

In many ways Germany is still stuck in the 90s

gym_imposter

I really like Germans but some aspects of the country are odd indeed

Danzy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320176#Comment_122320176

Who brought them in?

Who makes excuses for them, it's never their culture. It's the patriarchy, colonialism, capitalist dehumanisation m, Zionist oppression etc etc.

Always someone else's fault.

InAtFullBack

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320344#Comment_122320344

It's my comment on the report itself, not necessarily directed at you personally.

Padre_Pio

Maja R was jailed for a weekend for her comments because of her previous conviction for theft and her failure to attend the court hearing for the case.

Sorry, was she jailed for the comments? Or her previous conviction? Or not showing up to court?

Seems like a click bait title.

All were under 20 at the time, allowing them to be subject to juvenile law. Only one of them spent any time in jail, an Iranian national, who was 19 years old at the time, though it’s not clear why. Speaking about the rape in court, he asked: “What man doesn’t want that?” 

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320344#Comment_122320344

seems that one of them made things pretty clear.

xyz13

The world is upside down.

Ezeoul

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320724#Comment_122320724

In this instance, I have to agree and this is what I'm wondering too.

Maja R was jailed for a weekend for her comments because of her previous conviction for theft and her failure to attend the court hearing for the case. 

So if she turned up, she most likely would have been convicted of defamation, but not jailed?

Either way, the world has gone nuts when a convicted rapist only receives a suspended sentence.

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320839#Comment_122320839

Useful for the persecution that he was too stupid to know when to keep his mouth shut. They had dna evidence from him and some of the others anyway though.
It’s concerning that he didn’t realise how at odds his view was with local law and customs.

AllForIt

Huh, Leftie Laws.

If I were her I would issue a statement of apology for insulting pigs. Pigs have feelings too you know.

Mick ah

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122321078#Comment_122321078

But remember, you're a racist if you don't want people like him being allowed to live in the West

extra-ordinary_

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122321150#Comment_122321150

Yeh although only recently we had one of our own boasting about how they were able to punch a woman unconcious. Migrant strain was he?

Mick ah

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122321203#Comment_122321203

If you're referring to that soldier who's sentence has caused controversy, I don't believe he has a migratory background. But I do believe (based on the limited information I bothered to learn) that he should be serving jail time.

I also think that sentencing in Ireland is too lenient and a MASSIVE prison should be built.

I also don't think we should willingly allow ourselves to become like Sweden, were over 70% of violent crimes are committed by non Swedes or "new" Swedes.

I like our culture, I like Europe. I don't think there much value to be added to Europe by allowing people with whom we've got nothing on common with to come here (often illegally) and then live off of government handouts.

political analyst

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320724#Comment_122320724

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320905#Comment_122320905

I stated what was stated in the Telegraph article, which was also printed in yesterday's Indo. It's like when a defendant in the district court in Ireland is jailed for shoplifting or some other summary offence because of previous convictions.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122321078#Comment_122321078

I was only reading this last week, it might be a bit of an eye opener as to the kind of questions the defence will ask in a rape trial. Thought you might like it.

Throughout Defence’s line of questioning, it becomes clear that the strategy is to prove that Beast’s sole intention was to commit the burglary, not the aggravated sexual assault. Yeah, sure, he tripped and fell fingers-first into her. Defence asks me if the accused broke into my home with the intention of stealing from me. I wait for Prosecution to object. Nothing. Gotta do it myself, so.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320404#Comment_122320404

You have not got a clue! It is a civil law court not a common law court for heavens sake.

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320098#Comment_122320098

Germany has civil law not common law, judges do not interpret the law nor is the nature of the crime being commented on.

uptherebels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122321150#Comment_122321150

What people are like him?

Are you sure about that? Or is it because people use crimes committed by a "foreigner" as a means to tar all foreigners

Montage of Feck

I find it kind of a funny that posters are blaming Marxism and left wing politics for this when a portion of Germany was an actual Marxist country. I doubt the perp would have had it so soft in the GDR.

Wanderer78

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122321820#Comment_122321820

…id love to see direct quotes from marxs work to back the claims!

Mick ah

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122321786#Comment_122321786

People who don't see gang rape as abhorrent.

Say what you want about Western culture (and I have criticisms of it), but you'd be hard pressed to find people with a mainstream western upbringing who don't think gang raping a woman is wrong.

Remember, what we think is normal certainly isn't thought of as normal in other parts of the world. There are millions of people in Pakistan, India and Afghanistan (and the middle East and North Africa) who believe that it's "honourable" and right to murder their sister/daughter if she's been raped. You know, because by being a victim of a disgusting crime she has dishonored the family.

The UK also has problems with these so called "honour killings". No prizes for guessing where the perpetrators hail from.

It's not about tarring all foreigners. Certainly not. But it's irrational to assume that foreigners are just westerners with different skin colours. People bring their culture with them, and some cultures are quite frankly disgusting.

The only people we as a society should be accepting are people who we expect to contribute (people with needed skills and a work visa) and who will integrate.

When was the last time you heard of a gang rape in Western Europe being carried out by a group of senior software engineers from the sub continent?

Even the most hardcore Nazis that I've met don't tar all foreigners with the same brush.

JP Liz V1

That really is bad, one only in prison for a gang rape and then calling rapist pig lands one in prison

https://nypost.com/2024/06/29/world-news/german-woman-given-harsher-sentence-than-rapist-for-defamation/

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122321459#Comment_122321459

This was quite interesting but not too surprising. Ultimately it’s the defense’s job to get their client off the hook which is why “the idiot” in the Hamburg case ruined several defense strategies with this one statement.

uptherebels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122322028#Comment_122322028

What "people" don't see gang rape as abhorrent?

Do you meet alot of hardcore Nazis?

Jequ0n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122322028#Comment_122322028

There are plenty of people in western society who fully endorse (gang) rape and other sexual activities which are criminal. The ones who value their reputation and freedom will not be caught in trials like this though.

I agree that cultural differences of some subcultures within western societies are a huge problem though, and that they are at odds with local laws.

Mick ah

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122322853#Comment_122322853

To quote the only one of the perpetrators to go to gaol: “What man doesn’t want that?”

His statement was in relation to gang rape.

Do you think he licked that sentiment off a stone? Do you believe that everyone who migrates to Europe shares our values?

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4112443/pakistan-court-sentence-girl-to-be-raped/

I've met Pakistanis who were great guys, but some people from Pakistan are still living in the dark ages.

I don't meet many hardcore Nazis. Most people keep that to themselves. But I've come across some self described Nazis.

Mick ah

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122323156#Comment_122323156

Do you have any examples of westerners endorsing gang rape?

uptherebels

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122323231#Comment_122323231

So what "people"? You didn't actually answer the question .

I don't believe every Irish person shares "our" values. Nevermind everyone. But I also don't hold groups of people responsible for the actions of individuals

So have many have you met? Your sample size is 1?

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122320905#Comment_122320905

Either way, the world has gone nuts when a convicted rapist only receives a suspended sentence.

It's very very possible that the next President of the US will be someone who a judge has found culpable of rape.

And probably 60M plus will know this as they go to vote for him.

Mick ah

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122323277#Comment_122323277

You're not actually looking for answer are you?

To start, some of those "people" include the lads who allegedly raped that 16 year old in the article I linked to.

I also don't hold groups of people responsible for the actions of individuals. But if we're going to have a sane migration policy, and reduce the probability of this sort of crime being committed in Europe in the future we need to recognise that people from certain regions bring with them a world view that is quite simply incompatible with ours.

To believe otherwise is pure fantasy.