The decline of FG?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123153019#Comment_123153019

It is a free democracy we have, of course they didn't tell their reps not to vote for him.

Other parties may rely on democratic centralism to control members and some of them are controlled from outside, but at least FG didn't do that.

Difficult to know if his name was widely known within the party, if it was, that reflects poorly on judgement of councillors, if it wasn't, and clearly, the woman involved wanted things kept quiet and no further action, difficult to see what else they could have done.

FrancieBrady

One of the reasons FG's vote declined after 2011 to what it is now was that Enda Kenny's promises focussed attention on what FG were truly like and it hasn't gone well. From having to cling to FF to now enlisting the support of Lowry for power.
This take down by the Indo is quite extraordinary really and I think it isn't go away. No mention of previous cases of under the carpet brushing and omerta such as the case in Mayo in the lead up to the GE.

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/code-of-silence-simon-harriss-omerta-and-fine-gaels-secrets-come-unstuck-in-martin-conway-saga/a1084904139.html

Agriculture Minister Martin Heydon, a Harris loyalist, was asked on RTÉ’s The Week in Politics yesterday if the latest incident involving Mr Conway raises questions about the judgment of the party leadership. “What can we do about a situation we find out about this weekend in a media report?

It is clearly incumbent on an individual within the party, who has signed a party pledge to be a Fine Gael candidate, that if an incident arises, they inform the party and that didn’t happen in this case,” he replied.

Mr Conway’s arrest did come as a surprise to the party, but Mr Heydon’s comments about informing the party about an incident are laughable when applied to the incident in the bar, where the party conducted its own investigation.

Fine Gael knew all about Mr ­Conway’s behaviour. The party hierarchy said nothing to the rest of the party. Mr Harris has been quick to jump on certain other parties’ lack of candour when it comes to internal inquiries. Now that the roles are reversed, he’s not so vocal.

Rosahane

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123152302#Comment_123152302

Francie get confused with democracy… in the shinners everything is determined by the army council😊

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123154727#Comment_123154727

Simon, this very weekend on Claire Byrne:

“I am accountable for who is and is not a member of Fine Gael.”

By his own admission he is responsible for this candidate being a member and running for the Senate under the FG banner.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123151682#Comment_123151682

Being in power during that time as well.

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123156492#Comment_123156492

It does really get to the heart of the definition of decline.

Is a decline in the number of votes a symbol of decline? If so, Sinn Fein are the party in decline. Their performance since the high watermark of 2020 has been at best disappointing to their members. Time probably for a change in leader if they are not to descend into irrelevance.

If the definition of decline is in terms of influence, then probably Labour are the party most in decline, as they have gone from being a party of alternative government to irrelevance. Ivana has a big task on her plate, one I don't think she is up to.

If decline is measured by decline from pre-eminence, then it is FF, who once aspired to overall majorities, who are in decline. Jack Lynch got an overall majority in 1977, since then decline after decline. MM understands this new reality, but when he is gone, will his successors be able to adapt?

However, this thread is dedicated to the party that have now been in government since 2011 and likely to remain in government until 2029 (and were always only in government in a coalition). The strangest of definitions.

The only party who can avoid an accusation of decline is the Social Democrats, until they lost a TD immediately after the election.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122896101#Comment_122896101

By the end of this govt term, FG will have been in power for 20 years.

2 decades, in which the electorate has voted them into govt.

If 20 years of continuous power represents a party in decline, where does that leave SF?

blanch152

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123157535#Comment_123157535

Ah now, don't be asking those hard questions.

It hasn't sunk in yet to Sinn Fein supporters that they lost the election, they still think, ala Jim Carrey, that there is a chance.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123157535#Comment_123157535

Unfortunately, longevity has never meant automatic conferral of the quality moniker. There have been many regimes and elected governments that lasted a long time that history doesn't look favourably at.

And you can only really say that the electorate has chosen FF and FG coalesced once. In 2020 the electorate chose SF to head a government, they were 2nd choice in 2024. The electorate have consistently put FG in 3rd place since 2020 in actual fact.

BlueSkyDreams

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123157658#Comment_123157658

FFG have been so close to one another in terms of policy, that many people are voting for them as one entity. Vote for FG, transfer to FF, or vice versa.

The fact is that the number of votes FG have received from the electorate has enabled them, by the end of this term, to be in govt for the last 20 years, without exception.

The number of votes SF has received from the electorate has disabled them from being in govt, period.

SF were also the party with a much larger first preference decline vs FG, during the recent general election.

The trajectory of first preference support was shown to be declining way faster with SF than it was for either FF or FG.

pureza

surely the definition of quality in political management anyway is persuading enough voters and Dáil members that your party leader should hold the highest offices in the land,epic fail from SF there and ongoing epic win for Fine Gael,FF and their gene pool,no denying that

Also isn’t it gas how the indo was rubbished for years as an anti SF paper here and now it’s the hero of that party and its followers because it’s running anti FG articles that they can link

Back in the day Bonkey often called people out for that here and rightly so

On the senator thing though,sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander

If certain people can make a whole hoo ha about particular T.D’s they ‘d better expect their own to come under similar scrutiny

The electorate are often on a different page though voting in the politicians in that spotlight with gusto if they deserve it eg Lowry and Stanley

It has ever been thus

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123157778#Comment_123157778

Thread isn't about SF.

The thread is about the decline of FG, who have declined from a 2011 high to where they are now.
They are in government by virtue of a coalition and not on their own merit alone.
You may also notice that the vote share of the two main parties of that coalition is also in decline.
Yes they have been in government, nobody is denying that, but the fact is less and less people are choosing that combo.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123157512#Comment_123157512

It's like complaining that Man City only won the Premier League by 2 points, instead of 20.

It doesn't matter… they still won the title.

Talk about vote share is just some way for those who are butt hurt about the opposition's continual failure at general elections. FG are in power, they are not. Everything else is moot.

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123157658#Comment_123157658

This is just more talking down to the electorate.

They must be 'stupid'.

You are no Democrat @FrancieBrady

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123157892#Comment_123157892

Where have I said any of that?

Can you tell me what I said that isn't factual?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123157908#Comment_123157908

Your continued demonisation of the choices of the electorate is there for all to see.

You rail against FG and FG, bang on about the power swap, as if it was pre-ordinated by some external power… yet it was the Irish people, the electorate who made those choices.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123157941#Comment_123157941

So you can't say what was not factual.
The choice of the Irish electorate in the last 3 elections was:

2020
SF
FF
FG
2024
FF
SF
FG

I am not in denial of what the electorate have chosen Mark. Nor am I in denial of the governments that formed out of those results/choices.

There is zero onus on me as a democrat to agree on that choice. You and others here regularly 'wish' the electorate in the north would 'chose' somebody else to represent them, and posit the theory that society will not change there until they do, does that make you 'undemocratic' are you 'demonising an electorate there?

pureza

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123157976#Comment_123157976

you are constantly using pedantic’s to mask what you write from what your message is saying

Your message is fundamentally un democratic and 100% in denial of what the vast majority of people voted for
80,000 posts of that kind of carry on is laudable though for the effort but must be exhausting?

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123157658#Comment_123157658

In 2020 the electorate chose SF to head a government, they were 2nd choice in 2024.

The electorate did not make that choice so stop with the electoral gaslighting!

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123154029#Comment_123154029

All parties tell their Seanad electorate who the officially supported candidates are.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123158099#Comment_123158099

I am assuming this is not a moderation and it is ok to reply.
I didn't say it to 'gaslight'.
We are being told here FF FG 'won' the election. Despite the fact that the people saying it ranted for many many posts about SF saying that they won the 2020 election.
If FF - FG 'won' this election and the electorate 'chose' them to form a government, why can't the same be said of 2020 and SF?
Genuine question.

Seth Brundle

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123158145#Comment_123158145

The purpose of the election is to form a government. Whoever forms the government therefore wins the election. Complaining that your party was chosen by the people, etc. is just nonsense

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123158136#Comment_123158136

Anyone interested in politics knows this. The instructions on how to vote relating to FG are detailed here:

Fine Gael’s Seanad director of elections, junior minister Neale Richmond, sent out a booklet to party representatives “Fine Gael Seanad Election 2025 Voting Guidelines”, setting out the voting strategy. That booklet has Mr Conway listed as a Fine Gael candidate with the instruction: “There are six FG candidates on this panel, so they should account for preferences 1 to 6.”

https://www.independent.ie/opinion/analysis/code-of-silence-simon-harriss-omerta-and-fine-gaels-secrets-come-unstuck-in-martin-conway-saga/a1084904139.html

dulpit

Just because a party got the most votes doesn't mean that the party is being picked to lead government. We are in an era of coalitions.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123158181#Comment_123158181

Sorry, the purpose of an election is to find out what people preferences are as to political parties. In both the elections mentioned, nobody presented a coalition to the electorate, they all presented separate manifesto's and the electorate rated them in order of preference.
FG FF and the Independents 'won' the contest to form a government.

I fully accept that. I also accept that FF 'won' the 2024 election and there are posters here rightfully claiming that.

The logic you are presenting entitles Michael Lowry or Michael Healy Rae to claim they 'won' the election.

And it isn't a claim unique to me either. in fairness:

https://www.irishexaminer.com/news/spotlight/arid-40222064.html

https://apnews.com/article/business-europe-ireland-northern-belfast-ab45c4ca47a3258d807b33449bff01c2

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/world-news/2024/11/29/sinn-fein-wins-irish-election-exit-polls/?msockid=3e41f5264ade6e500b20e0664b936fea

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123157976#Comment_123157976

There is zero onus on me as a democrat to agree on that choice.

You dont have to agree, but you have to accept it.

pureza

such nonsensical delusion

D’hont means the largest party wins the first minister role in the North

Is the Republic running the D’hont system? No

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123158390#Comment_123158390

What makes you think 'I don't accept' that FF - FG and Inds formed the government democratically?

I do.

I reserve the right to be critical of some of what they do.
Do you actually understand what a 'democracy' is?

markodaly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123158408#Comment_123158408

What makes you think 'I don't accept' that FF - FG and Inds formed the government democratically?

Because you bang on about power swaps and the like. You have been at it years. Apparently its the fault of the electorate that they dont vote for your beloved SF.

FrancieBrady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123158420#Comment_123158420

This is a fabrication.

Power has swapped between FF and FG since the foundation of the state. Fact.

We have been over this all before. You don't like it being pointed out, that's clear. It doesn't make it untrue.

The electorate do vote for SF, just as much as they do for FF and FG. I think it may be you who has issue with that as a fact not me.

Now that is the end of you making yet another thread about 'me'.

If I have said anything that is untrue, by all means point it out and I will respond.