0.22LR Pistol License dealing with difficult Garda

warez

Hi All

January this year i applied for a 0.22lr pistol license, planning to get 0.22lr rifle next.

Im a member of a gun club, working Senior Manager State job. Living in ROI for nearly 20y. Never any dealings with Gardai or any other trouble.

My house and safe has been checked 3 months since application submitted. No objections. When i got no reply after another month i reached out to my local Firearm officer. First he told me he lost my forms and i will have to re-submitt. 10min later he rang me that he found it and told me he will process them right away.

Month later still nothing. Yesterday i went for a walk with my wife and when we were passing station i said we may come in and check what causes delay.

Sgt told me that he didnt process it yet as he has objections that he would like to discuss with my wife in private. Bit surprised but sure, work away. He brought her to the office and started asking if she is not a victim of domestic violence. I could hear my wife laughing. Reason for asking that was that im big (6.5ft 20 stone powerlifter) plus we have cctv not only outside the house but also in leaving room (installed so we could see our son coming back from school plus entrance from back yard covered ). Also he found suspicious that i locked front door when he came in (totally normal where i grown up)

When i got over first shock i founded that extremly ofensive as im a very much family orientated man.

When garda finished that "interview" he told me its all good and now he will process it.

Question for all of you is, is there a point going to my solicitor with it or did he have a valid reason to delay my licence 2 months over maximum period due to his paranoia?

One side of me tells me that maybe it is good that they are so sensitive but other as i said found it very offesive. Also will he be trouble for future licences if i will go after him?

kabakuyu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058354994/0-22lr-pistol-license-dealing-with-difficult-garda

I know nothing about firearms licences but I would leave it be, you should have your licence soon, I assume the Gardai were acting within their remit,the garda is now satisifed with the application,so that should be the end of it.

freddieot

I'd leave it as it sounds like the licence is definitely coming. The solicitors should always be a last resort. Better to go along with any quirky nonsense as long as it's working out in your favour.

I doubt it's personal. I've had a few strange twists and issues over the years with licence applications. Usually it's just because of some new super or FO with a poor understanding of the law or a case of an over active imagination.

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058354994/0-22lr-pistol-license-dealing-with-difficult-garda

They will ask your referees in some manner "do you have an issue with this person having firearms", but how they do so runs the gamut from "would you have any concerns about Xs character", to "are you not concerned about having a weapon in the house", and all kinds of other silliness intended to get a certain response that they want you to give.

Now getting called in by a Sgt(who I presume is your firearms officer?) to speak to your spouse is rather unusual(I haven't heard of that one til now), but them asking such leading questions is not.
And as for the time taken this is not legal(3 months max), but also not unusual.

My referees have been asked numerous times, but my favourite one was when my other half got rung up to ask "Would you be comfortable with a firearm being in the house" and responding with "You mean another one? Sure why wouldn't I be?" and the FO on the other end of the line being suitably surprised and momentarily dumbfounded in response.
And the funnier part, ringing back again about 15 minutes later to ask again because another renewal was next in the FO's to-do pile 😂

I personally at this point I wouldn't concern yourself with a solicitor, provided you get the licence in short order, but it doesn't hurt to keep at them to ensure it doesn't get "forgotten" about.

If you want a potentially better answer you could drop either here or in PM your county you licence in and I'll have a look at what the firearms licencing wait times survey here:

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058304131/firearms-certificate-waiting-times-survey

Says about your county.
Could well be a one off, or a pattern of bad faith by AGS in your district.

Also, one final question, by "gun club" did you mean shooting range?
Gun club usually meaning here a game shooting club, and a shooting range being, well a shooting range or a shooting club based at a range 😋

warez

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122231647#Comment_122231647

Thank you for your answer. Yes my wife was also asked if she doesn't mind firearm in the household. Little he knew that my wifey is an army officer daughter and she knew how to reload makarov before she could walk :D

I think you are all right. I will let it slip but it only shows you what effort that some Gardai will take just not to have firearms in their district.

I'm looking forward to a 1 day after receiving my licence when I will personally hand him another application for rifle.

Feisar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233690#Comment_122233690

Unless the officer was in the INLA I don't think she was playing with Makarov's!

Grizzly 45

I would hazard a guess that "Warez" [and welcome to the forums here too BTW!] hails from a part of the EU that was formerly the Warsaw Pact where handling Markovs and AKs and as a special treat a dummy RPG7 was part and parcel of your primary and secondary school after hours education to prepare you for national service.

As for the questioning of your spouse,etc. That is understandable, but out of line. To the point, it could be considered a worthy complaint to the Garda Ombudsman. Well fine if said Sgt is asking all and sundry in his district the same question of wives and husbands,but singling out one specific person because of possible nationality, could be considered racist these days. However,as previous posters have said if he is RECOMMENDING an issuance to the Super and is getting it done pronto. I'd let it slide too,but maybe ask next time you are dropping in the form for the rifle of "Shall I bring the wife along so you can question her?" will be a good enough hint to him that it's noted and not forgotten.

Feisar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122235484#Comment_122235484

Should have twigged that, I was thinking of our own outfit.

tonysopprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122235273#Comment_122235273

Pay attention. The OP is from an eastern country

tonysopprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122235484#Comment_122235484

"Well fine if said Sgt is asking all and sundry in his district the same question of wives and husbands,but"

Does this not fall under the High Court definition of a "blanket policy"

Sheep breeder

Think you caught him on the hop by calling into the station unannounced and he hadn’t processed your application and that’s why he questioned your partner to let on he was doing something, had similar with rifle licence number months went by and nothing and was passing local station and called into Garda I knew just said to him about the licence, he said look in to it and two days later two boys arrived to check gun safe and lots of questions and stated a back log with paperwork and sorted within the week.

tonysopprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122235642#Comment_122235642

All the same, not really good enough, when we have to jump through hoops and they get to bend, break and invent, laws

Feisar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122235595#Comment_122235595

I'm so used to Eastern European English at work I didn't pick up on the way they used their words. The use of ROI threw me. From my experience that's used by people from NI/Britain. Yes it's used for the football team but in terms of a person living here it'd normally be twenty years in Ireland.

warez

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122235273#Comment_122235273

Polish army officers did use them up to late 80's

john_aero

If license arrives I would leave it. You gain nothing an run the risk of bringing more attention to yourself in future applications or if need help from said Garda for other issues.

I always have my contacts called even during renewal. Personally I am happy to see they are being careful as to whom they are dealing with. Have had house inspected and happily take calls to chat about my reasoning for another fire arm. When I start going on about quality of wood work and history behind a particular gun I am getting they usually get fed up and let me go.

pg339

Don't take it personally, this started in England because police were getting accused of granting certs without taking account of reports of concern where there were no actual convictions. See the case below and what's happening there now. If we've nothing to hide and not a threat to anyone then it can only further confirm our fitness and suitability to hold firearms.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cm5rljxy3p5o

Grizzly 45

But we are NOT in England. Or the USA or in Europe on this topic. We have specific laws and conditions that both we and AGS must abide by when licensing firearms. Going and asking our spouses, next of kin etc is not part of our legislation on this . While it is of good intent,it is not protocol or advisable to allow an infringement on protocol.

What next? Do we allow aGS to demand our social media accounts? So they can scan our social media for "mean Tweets" like in the UK and revoke our licenses for not recognising 99 other genders? Has already happened in the UK. https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/report-uk-gun-owner-loses-licenses-over-social-media-presence

Or like in Germany where even having an off-colour view,but perfectly legal as you can carry less, and leathl weaponary over there with correct paperwork was enough to deprive a gunowner worth of 50K worth of property in Schweinfurt https://katjatriebel.com/2016/05/21/wbk-weg-wegen-facebook-posts/

Or having certain political belifs like being a Reich burger or having "extreme rightwing views",[and thats not necessarily being a Seig Heiling,Mein Kampf reading with a pic of Adolf over the mantlepiece Neo Nazi these days] get you having to be cleared by German secret services? We already have seen this happen with NPWS trying it on with their minimum 100 acres,or deciding that in some cases .243 was the minimum acceptable calibre. Both dropped pretty quickly when it came to the rubber meeting the road.

If they want this power, go and demand and get it in legislation as a wise judge commented in the DC about our firearms legislation in the semi-automatic rifles and pistol appeals,not just assume and demand it because you are "the law".

pg339

It doesn't need to be legislation, it's guidance. I'm not suggesting it's either right or wrong. Interesting to see what would happen if the decision maker was not happy that the applicant and/ or any others contacted had not engaged honestly and willingingly with the interview.

.243

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122243239#Comment_122243239

heres the crux in all this,the decision maker is the local super NOT the sergeant in charge,

whats next, a dna and a stool sample because you looked too pale to him when you walked in the door and it looks like you mighnt be fit enough to hold a firearms certificate,and all you were doing was enquiring about the progression of some paperwork,

pg339

I know who the decision maker is, but the application comes to him/her with a recommendation. In this case the Sgt carried out the interview and confirmed he was processing it. Not everyone is going to embrace a stricter vetting process but that's what's coming in an increasing risk averse society.

Chiparus

Generally guards have a fair idea of community and who is "intemperate" or not, much of that local knowledge is changing.

I would have no problem with guards asking my partner if they are happy for me to have a firearm in the home.

warez

Thank you all. As for now I'm still waiting for a letter to arrive.

How long does it normally tak for supper to approve?

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122253197#Comment_122253197

Depends on the licencing district.

Anywhere from a week to several months.

warez

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122253815#Comment_122253815

Lovely all together. Whole Gardai institution is a one big mess. Feel pity for some good man and woman working there.

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122254643#Comment_122254643

Oh it's a fine institution 🙄
There are a lot of decent guards at lower levels, but as you go up the chain it trends a lot more towards the "making up their own rules for the sake of it" crowd, with no real regard to the impact(if any) of those rules on public safety.

Hopefully you won't have too much longer to wait for the grant letter, and the actual licence is quite speedy(within a week) after that.
Do make sure to check the details(particularly the make and serial number) on the licence when you get it, misprints and wrong digits/letters are not unusual.

deerhunter1

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058354994/0-22lr-pistol-license-dealing-with-difficult-garda

I believe he overstepped the mark, abuse of power and intimidation I would say,I would take it further,because he could do it again, a Guard that does not have a clue, this is something I think he done off his own back and not following procedure, I would report him to my GP also as he is not qualified to go down that road. I have had many restricted firearms over the last 50 years including centre fire pistols, and never came across this bullshitt

warez

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122259184#Comment_122259184

Thank you deerhunter1

I had a good chat with my soliciitor.

If letter wont appear over next 2 wks or If he will do anything outside usual procedure when applying for 2nd firearm then we will take immediate action.

warez

Just an update in case anyone cares. Still no sign of the approval.

Our solicitor sent him a letter this morning. He has 2wks to respond.

Gorgeousgeorge

Good well done. Keep us updated

2011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122299194#Comment_122299194

I understand your frustration and sympathize.

But if he doesn’t respond in 2 weeks what can be done? It is possible that AGS decide to ignore solicitor’s letters. If they keep doing that it may end up in court, even if it does there is no right to have a firearm in Ireland.

For the record I sincerely hope that there is a speedy and positive outcome for you.

freddieot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122314589#Comment_122314589

Hopefully it will be resolved amicably for the OP. Unfortunately sometimes court is necessary. Although ownership of a firearm is not a right, neither is it proper to deny someone a licence eithout good reason. This is a democracy after all and there should be fair and equitable treatment for every citizen. That is regardless of where they reside, what colour or creed they are, or the 'policies' of local paid public servants who unfortunately sometimes believe wrongly that they are the law rather than just enforcers of that law.

tonysopprano

Regarding your next, possibly to court.

The law at the moment states, they have 3mths to consider otherwise it is refused and you have to be notified in writing BUT Section 15A (5) b and c states that if you did not receive written notification, then so what you should have known and tough totties, the 30 day period still applies.

F91[Appeal to District Court.

Sect 15A.

(2) An appeal shall be made within 30 days of receipt of notice of the decision concerned.

F38[Applications for, and form and effect of, firearm certificates.

Sect 3.

(9) A decision on an application for a firearm certificate or its renewal shall be given within 3 months from the date on which the applicant submitted a completed application form.

(10) Where the application is refused, the applicant shall be informed in writing of the refusal and the reason for it.

F91[Appeal to District Court.

Sect 15A

(5) For the purposes of this section—

(a) an issuing person—

(i) who is required under section 3(9), 4A(7) or 10(4F) to decide on an application within a specified period, and

(ii) who does not so decide,

is deemed to have decided to refuse to grant the application,

(b) the applicant is deemed to have received notice of the decision on the expiration of that period, and

(c) as the case may be, section 3(10) does not apply in relation to the application.

2011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122314681#Comment_122314681

I hear you, as I said I sympathise and hope it works out for the OP.

I just don't have a lot of faith in the courts when it comes to firearms and law abiding citizens in Ireland.

Grizzly 45

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122315819#Comment_122315819

Would a 90% +/- win ratio over the last 20 years for gun owners restore your faith in the Judicial system? They[DC judges] have been utterly impartial and just in dealing with these cases nationwide, and even the very few that have been refused the judges have IMO given fair play decisions based on law and not personal biases fitted to be the law.

As one lady judge said on one refusal case,it had been the most interesting and passionately fought case from both sides she had passed before her as a Dist Justice in a long while .

freddieot

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122315819#Comment_122315819

I think your lack of faith is misplaced. My opinion is based not only on first hand experience myself but also on how friends of mine got on in their appeal cases. I've seen no instances at all of any negative bias by the courts.

The issue is that not enough people take a stand when they need to with the local PTB. I'm not suggesting every situation requires a court case, far from it, but sadly sometimes it is the only solution if there is no attempt for some resolution locally.

In addition, now that it is possible to get costs refunded if one wins an appeal case, there is even more reason to go to court if there is no other option.

One thing for certain is that if you give in once then you have marked yourself as someone they can push around. As most sports shooters / hunters are in this for the long game, ofteny for life, that can mean years of grief and being dictated to on all things firearm related. Better, for sure, to foster a good relationship, but it takes both sides to do that of course.

csirl

There was a High Court case about Gardai delaying/refusing licenses a number of years ago. A Judicial Review was taken by a group of applicants. Gardai got absolutely roasted in court to the extent that the Judge stopped the case and had stong words with them.

csirl

Found a news report on it:

https://m.independent.ie/irish-news/high-court-judge-in-warning-on-disturbing-gun-licence-practices/26813541.html

2011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122316690#Comment_122316690

Fair enough.
I did not think that costs could be refunded in the event of a successful outcome, that is good to hear.

tonysopprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122318098#Comment_122318098

…… https://www.courts.ie/rules/costs-si-no-17-2014

Grizzly 45

At the judges discretion that is,and more likely to happen the longer the case is dragged out.

J.R.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122316740#Comment_122316740

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/high-court-challenge-to-gun-licence-refusal-is-settled-1.455035 ……

garrettod

Hi,

If you are a member of the NARGC or IFA Countryside, I'd phone them and ask them to assist.

No guarantees, but also nothing to loose - they might be able to exert a little pressure, or call in a favour.

The IFA Countryside team are meeting the Gardai this month, to discuss the experience of members when applying for licences, so I'd get this on their agenda.

Calahonda52

Food for thought in the context of taking on the AGS

https://www.rte.ie/news/courts/2024/0704/1458251-garda-corruption-joseph-doyle/

warez

Bit of an update:

My solicitor got a call from Sgt. Saying that matter has been passed to super. He will make final decision after interview with me. Noone from superintendent's office made any contact with me so far.

Nearly 7 months at this stage.

tonysopprano

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122349218#Comment_122349218

So basically they are telling you that your application has spent 7 months on your firearms officers/ firearms sgt's desk and they are only now passing it up the Decision maker's desk, despite the LAW stating that overall it should have been adjudicated in 3 months.

I am going to stop now.

Maybe you need a new solicitor, who at least knows the Firearms Act

warez

I have an excellent Solicitor. It is all down to incompetence of Firearm officer.

warez

I met Garda Inspector this morning. She said it right to my face that they don't want pistols in the country and this is why delay was there. She told me she will grant me licence warned me not to look for more then one pistol.

She told me rifle will be no issue in the future. It is pistols that they are after.

otmmyboy2

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122368061#Comment_122368061

So, next rifle you apply for will be a .50bmg since she said "rifle will be no issue in the future" right? 😂
I can see her tune changing extremely fast, and all of those words, if they weren't written down, are worth exactly zilch.

Grizzly 45

Remind her too, that those decisions are two ranks at least above her and her pay grade.She is just a mouth and the decision on granting or not lies with her boss the superintendent.And its not up to what "They"want either.They are public servants of the people of Ireland,and if the people want to change the law on this . That's what we have politicians and a Dail for. Their job is to enforce the law as it stands not interpret or add on clauses and other hurdles it to suit their own likes or dislikes. Seems they need regular reminding of this fact in the courts and in these incidents.

warez

Hi All

Good news. Letter arrived this morning.

Solicitor gave a case bit of push. Overall very disappointing approach from Gardai.

Will apply for rifle next week

garrettod

Well done!