Deposit return scheme (recycling) - Part 2

Genghis

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225840#Comment_122225840

The issues before DRS seems to have occurred mainly after kerbside collection - i.e. fairly reasonable efforts had been made to separate, but with a low item value sometimes it was less costly to simply incinerate "recycling" waste.

If plastic and aluminium cans are worth 20x as much (value of deposit), then waste collectors suddenly get way better at separation within their plant and they never again divert plastic or aluminium to incineration.

I don't think they necessarily need to have separate collection systems. I am also not proposing that they need to refund the value to the householder, so there is no complexity there either [the consumer choice is return it yourself, or forfeit the deposit - this is as it is now, no change]. Waste collectors simply become super-incentivised to recover PET and aluminium from what they already collect.

Its a zero-cash-cost change (as the deposits are already there in re-turn), it adds to re-turns collection stats (as in the mission of DRS) & it some way protects waste collectors from revenue loss / consumers from price increases.

Again I ask - why has re-turn not done this already?

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225787#Comment_122225787

I take your point about Re-turn and commercial sensitivity.

However DRS users are not customers as such as they are not charged to use the system.

Now I know there are problems with getting deposits back but bear with me for a moment.

Bin companies are actually taking money from people's bank accounts to provide a service.

It varies but could fall in a range €30 to €40 per month.

Any company proposing to take extra should be able to break down the figures and justify it.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225919#Comment_122225919

Re-turn are taking people's money, they are taking the items we purchased and returned. Their operations are based on an expected 10% retention rate. All of under via a state mandated monopoly. It is last resort semantics to try to claim otherwise.

If Re-turn turn around and look for increase in the deposits, given that it is a state mandated amount, then the onus on them to produce the figures to justify that request is far greater. Given that they are funded via a state mandated amount and a state mandated monopoly, they need to be fully transparent with where the money is going - is it being used to fund recycling, it is being used to reduce producer fees etc

It would be like RTE looking for a licence fee increase without providing any details why.

Re-turn need to be justifying from the get go and on an annual basis the deposit levels being charged and how it is utilised.

Whereas bin companies are a service provider operating in a competitive market.

If you were discussing any price increase by such a provider, outside Re-turn - broadband, energy whatever, have you ever looked for: "Any company proposing to take extra should be able to break down the figures and justify it." ?

It would be rather telling if it only occurs to you in the context of something connected to Re-turn.

In an ideal world they should do so, but I would re-iterate that reporting transparency ask of Re-turn is legitimately greater.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225919#Comment_122225919

Bin companies are actually taking money from people's bank accounts to provide a service.

However DRS users are not customers as such as they are not charged to use the system.

Huh? No they aren't, bin companies provide a service which works and is convenient.

People chose to pay for this service for primarily those 2 reasons.

Re-Chit-Chit take our money and then use our labour, time and resources to make profit, it nothing but a net loss the public.

PEACEBROTHER

Apologies if discussed previously. Is it possible to build up these recycle receipts and use a large number of them when doing a weekly shop?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122226220#Comment_122226220

Yes, but:

1: They need to be from the same shop (some chains may take from other shops in their chain)

2: Thermal receipts don't last forever.

Someone on the old thread had been loading them on to a reloadable gift card, which some chains offer as a service.

bog master

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225765#Comment_122225765

If we cannot get any figures from ReTurn about items collected and recycled or director's remuneration from a quango set up by the gov't which is a monopoly and has NO competition, do you seriously expect a waste company to tell you the exact reason with figures pre and post price increase what this new system's practice is causing a ?% increase?????????????

bog master

Furthermore, since waste collection companies seem to be collecting less waste from the consumer, should there not be a price reduction?

beachhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225213#Comment_122225213

Nobody washes containers! My local council recycling has dinners,bbq trays,vegetables and gardening waste in the bottle,can banks.

Not made with hands

Saw a sign on a machine the other day saying you won't be able cash in your voucher until 30 minutes after its issued.

bog master

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122226584#Comment_122226584

The sharks will be out for you unless you post a pic, and even then?

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122226452#Comment_122226452

No in reality. That's why the evolution of our waste management shouldn't be completely discarded when some jobsworth declares, but but but Germany.

FF and FG have basically spent the last 30-40 years basically selling off everything that wasn't nailed down, with the plans to sell the nails too.

The state completely privatised waste collection over 20 odd years, I think it was Dempsey who arrogantly declared that the Irish People will only behave when they are hit in the pocket (sic) Of course the new way was going to be the environmental way. We had heaps of new logos.

This scam is a further step in the privatisation of waste management, setup a quango with no oversight, when the títs fall off the cow, sure it's not governance fault. Accountability is hard to stomach for a politician, blaming someone else isn't. Europe made us do it, etc.

See The Children's Hospital for the most recent example of this.

We needed waste management companies and we needed them to be more environmental, so we incentivised this with subsidies so we they could make investments in people, equipment and premises with the added bonus they could sell on the high value trash.

Now basically overnight we have swiped away this revenue stream, but we still expect the collection companies to be environmental on the low value or negative value trash with less subsidies.

So someone will have to pay for this shortfall, now it obviously could from the projected 10s of millions Re-Chit-Chit will pocket, but fúck that. You and me will pay and we will happy with it.

The reality is though, unless the waste management companies are re-incentivised to be environmental because the scale is no longer there so what you will see is more incineration and more landfilling.

And probably less competition in the market which of course will lead to higher prices.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225945#Comment_122225945

That's a very long reply considering that in the first line of my post -

"I take your point about Re-turn and commercial sensitivity"

I never suggested that Re -turn shouldn't be subject to oversight and reporting requirements.

There is a difference beyond semantics in the relationship between bin companies and the consumer and the relationship with Re-turn.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122226212#Comment_122226212

I think they are quite different too but for other reasons

Please see my reply to Odyssey.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122226445#Comment_122226445

Yes I do think that any company I have a contract with should be able to justify price increases.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122226830#Comment_122226830

Well they are both waste management companies.

One provides a service that you pay for, the other makes you provide the service that you pay for and they earn money from this.

Genius really.

But for some reason your problem is with the original waste management company.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122226584#Comment_122226584

That's not allowed.

You should be able to cash it or exchange it for goods immediately.

Complain to the shop.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122226931#Comment_122226931

They operate in different areas of the same industry.

My problem is not with the companies per se but with the fact that we can't establish -

1 Have they increased prices due to DRS ?

2 If they have, by how much ?

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122227030#Comment_122227030

It's in the report that was commissioned to shoe horn this scam into existence.

The exact figures no one outside the waste managements companies will, but this Ireland so it be multiply by 2 and carry the 1.

But they would be under no obligation to itemise this amount. Which is handy.

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225594#Comment_122225594

Can you prove you were at that music festival?

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122227047#Comment_122227047

Which report was that ?

By the way it seems we are both interested in getting the same information.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122227073#Comment_122227073

The report from the environmental company that was hired to shoe horn this scam on top of us.

You have been on the thread from the start and are one of the more active members of, the report has been linked to numerous times.

I'm surprised you haven't read it.

But no, we are not interested in getting the same information, you only want the information that justifies your blind admiration for the scam.

That's up to you.

Not made with hands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122226955#Comment_122226955

What do you think the shop will do?

What are re-turn doing about out of order machines?

This con is really designed for the big players Dunnes, Lidl, SuperValu etc.

There should be a customer charter. If a machine is routinely out of service or there are always big queues we should be getting compo.

Same as if airlines have flight delays.

awec

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122227115#Comment_122227115

I hate this scheme but it doesn't suit the retailer for their machines to be out of order, so that part is not a "con".

The whole reason retailers pushed for this scheme was it provided them a way to tie up customer cash in vouchers that could only be spent in their stores, and also increase customer football as people are forced to make additional trips to their stores in order to bring their empties back (and these additional trips will often involve additional purchases).

Retailers want their machines to be working since that's the thing that makes them more money.

dxhound2005

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122227115#Comment_122227115

Maybe you misread the sign. Did it say 30 minutes or 30 seconds?

reubenreuben

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225748#Comment_122225748

It wasn't separate chambers. Everything was thrown in together

reubenreuben

Delete

reubenreuben

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122225702#Comment_122225702

How do you know where the smell came from, you weren't even there

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122227100#Comment_122227100

Not to worry, if it does happen to come to hand please stick it up.

There have been four threads altogether and I think I posted in all. I find it hard to recall all the docs posted.

Just one small quibble, I don't blindly admire DRS.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122227115#Comment_122227115

They'll definitely do nothing if nobody complains.

Re-turn also won't do anything if nobody complains to them.

Customer Charter is a good idea worth exploring.

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122227286#Comment_122227286

Well then, as I said in my post they were

wrong.

It's not relevant to DRS trucks anyway because they only contain recyclables.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122227310#Comment_122227310

I didn't say I know where it came from.

I just know that there is nothing in an RVM that could produce the smell of landfill gas.

Not made with hands

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122227274#Comment_122227274

Definitely 30 minutes. 30 seconds wouldnt pose a problem.

Atlantic Dawn

During the week I saw a promotions crew for a 'rather large' drinks company giving out free cans of their drinks at a train station, no deposit return fee was required, not sure if the cans had the logo on them or not, is this allowed? Reason I ask is a couple of weeks back Vodafone were giving away free cans of Coke Zero that could be redeemed in SuperValu but when you went to collect you had to give over the 15cent.

fritzelly

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122228658#Comment_122228658

Those that make the rules can bend the rules

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122228658#Comment_122228658

If they paid the deposit they can give them away.

Vodafone could have paid the deposit for those if they'd wanted to

nachouser

I'm seeing more and more people picking through bins in DCC these days. A grim success for the scheme, I suppose. Yay for Re-Turn.

Atlantic Dawn

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122231325#Comment_122231325

More of a failure really, the end user is not arsed walking a few miles with a fully intact can to find a working machine to get back 15c.

elperello

I've seen a couple of people doing it too.

It's not hygienic or safe to be rooting through litter bins.

It was said before in thread that something like these will be piloted. I think in Dublin.

https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.5036222

nachouser

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122231446#Comment_122231446

I suppose that's slightly less **** than the current situation.

bog master

Has Vanilla struck or stuck again?

elperello

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233989#Comment_122233989

Just gone quiet maybe.

jj880

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122233989#Comment_122233989

By now Id say most people who use logic* and understand data have figured out what Re-Turn is.

*Logic with at least some basis in reality.

vafankillar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122227177#Comment_122227177

you're mixing up two entities there.

"retailers" meaning people higher up in offices who haven't worked on the front lines of supermarkets in years if ever

and "retailers" meaning the underpaid, overworked staff who already often have barely enough time to get everything done in the day.

Quay_Koncept

I just discovered you can actually put the can or bottle in any orientation and it will scan. I had been placing the cans and bottles with the barcode facing up to allow the infra red scanner to capture the bar code. I found yesterday that throwing them in at any orientation bar code lieing down on belt, scans also. How does it scan the barcode if its lieing down and hidden by the conveyor belt, (Just curious)😵 certainly speeds up the process anyhoo!

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122236296#Comment_122236296

Some models have scanners "in" the belt, the belt being two belts rather than one solid belt.

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122236296#Comment_122236296

It depends on the machines, I've had cans rejected, then re-orientated them with barcode down, and it was read ok. It shouldn't matter, but if you get a can rejected, try it with your old tactic.

Qrt

I was in SuperValu in Newcastle, the shop is practically brand new, large supermarket built within the last year. Lots of self-service checkouts. All have signs above “Please do not use ReTurn vouchers at self service. Please present vouchers to the till”

No explanation given, and I didn’t get a chance to ask the staff.

This is it

Twice to SuperValu and once to Tesco (today) a total of 8 machines out of service. Bullshit.

beachhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122237433#Comment_122237433

Maybe they believe the vouchers can be re-used?

bodhrandude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122237769#Comment_122237769

I bet you were delighted about that.