Donald Trump the Megathread part II - mod warnings in OP, Updated 18/03/25

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123168757#Comment_123168757

That might all very well be happening but personally I wouldn't trust what either side of the war has to say. Peace should be the main goal. Zelensky has said that his phone call with Trump on ending the war was "meaningful" so it can't be all bad.

What annoys me is the EU and UK who weren't arsed negotiating with Russia for the last 3 years now wants in on any peace deal. At least you can say Ukraine, and to a lesser extent Turkey, held a lot of talks over the years. I say if the dictator from America wants to try and end the war he should at least be given a chance to

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123169856#Comment_123169856

I'd argue that they have been "negotiating" with Putin for the last 3 years.

It's just that those negotiations have been of the form of "Get out of Ukraine and get back inside your borders and we'll discuss removing the sanctions"

So far Trumps suggestions are "Ukraine needs to give up on everything , give Putin everything that he wants for now and Ukraine needs to give the US $500B worth of rare earth metals while they're at it"

There has not been a single statement from anyone in the US about what Russia will have to do here , not a word. It's all been about what Ukraine will have to accept.

That's not negotiating that's a pile-on.

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123169856#Comment_123169856

The main reason that peace talks haven't been viewed as viable is that nobody including Ukraine view Putin as trustworthy in negotiations.

Strazdas

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123169353#Comment_123169353

We're getting the 'alternative' viewpoint in spades from Trump, Musk and their millions of disciples worldwide. Arguably, we are hearing far more from them this year than we are from 'traditional' media.

ilkhanid

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123169856#Comment_123169856

One. More. Time. What was there to negotiate about? No NATO for Ukraine. No guarantees. ''De-nazification". Ukraine accepts the loss of all the regions in perpetuity, including regions not occupied by Ruzzia. Negotiations? More like 'What do you want to lose: your ears, your testicles or your nose. We can negotiate about how many toes you retain". And I will keep on asking, since you think "peace" by itself is so great, was there 'peace' in Ukraine in 1933? Was there peace in poland in 1941? Was there was peace in Ireland in 1651?

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123169875#Comment_123169875

So far Trumps suggestions are "Ukraine needs to give up on everything , give Putin everything that he wants for now and Ukraine needs to give the US $500B worth of rare earth metals while they're at it"

I have seen suggestions that they won't be able to return to the 2014 borders but "giving up everything" is a bit of a stretch. As for the EU negotiating tactic of "get out of Ukraine and then we will talk!" How's that going for them?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123169877#Comment_123169877

That's not a great way to start peace talks is it? Although I do accept Putin probably doesn't see Ukraine or the EU as being trustworthy in negotiations either.

In 1962 the Communists weren't trusted but they still managed to defuse the Cuban Missile Crisis

Tell me how

From the Internet.

Satire, but worth thinking about in the context of what DOGE is doing.

Sue gets up at 6 a.m. and fills her coffeepot with water to prepare her morning coffee. The water is clean and good because some tree-hugging liberal fought for minimum water-quality standards. With her first swallow of coffee, she takes her daily medication. Her medications are safe to take because some stupid commie liberal fought to insure their safety and that they work as advertised. All but $10 of her medications are paid for by her employer's medical plan because some liberal union workers fought their employers for paid medical insurance - now Sue gets it too. She prepares her morning breakfast, bacon and eggs. Sue's bacon is safe to eat because some girly-man liberal fought for laws to regulate the meat packing industry. In the shower, Sue reaches for her shampoo. Her bottle is properly labelled with each ingredient and its amount in the total contents because some cry baby liberal fought for her right to know what she was putting on her body and how much it contained. Sue dresses, walks outside and takes a deep breath. The air she breathes is clean because some environmentalist wacko liberal fought for laws to stop industries from polluting our air. She walks to the subway station for her government-subsidized ride to work. It saves her considerable money in parking and transportation fees because some fancy-pants liberal fought for affordable public transportation, which gives everyone the opportunity to be a contributor. Sue begins her work day. She has a good job with excellent pay, medical benefits, retirement, paid holidays and vacation because some lazy liberal union members fought and died for these working standards. Sue's employer pays these standards because Sue's employer doesn't want his employees to call the union. If Sue is hurt on the job or becomes unemployed, she'll get a worker compensation or unemployment check because some stupid liberal didn't think she should lose her home because of her temporary misfortune. It's noon and Sue needs to make a bank deposit so she can pay some bills. Sue's deposit is federally insured by the FSLIC because some godless liberal wanted to protect Sue's money from unscrupulous bankers who ruined the banking system before the Great Depression. Sue has to pay her Fannie Mae-underwritten mortgage and her below-market federal student loan because some elitist liberal decided that Sue and the government would be better off if she was educated and earned more money over her lifetime. Sue is home from work. She plans to visit her father this evening at his farm home in the country. She gets in her car for the drive. Her car is among the safest in the world because some America-hating liberal fought for car safety standards. She arrives at her childhood home. Her generation was the third to live in the house financed by Farmers' Home Administration because bankers didn't want to make rural loans. The house didn't have electricity until some big-government liberal stuck his nose where it didn't belong and demanded rural electrification. She is happy to see her father, who is now retired. Her father lives on Social Security and a union pension because some wine-drinking, cheese-eating liberal made sure he could take care of himself so Sue wouldn't have to. Sue gets back in her car for the ride home, and turns on a radio talk show. The radio host keeps saying that liberals are bad and conservatives are good. He doesn't mention that Republicans have fought against every protection and benefit Sue enjoys throughout her day. Sue agrees: "We don't need those big-government liberals ruining our lives! After all, I'm self-made and believe everyone should take care of themselves, just like I have."

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123169435#Comment_123169435

People did indeed vote decisively in favour of both referendums however 40% did not back SSM and 30% did not back abortion. These are minorities yes but they are also sizable groups. They are entitled to have a small media outlet that reflects a conservative view.

As for it being shite in the past, I suppose if you're in your mid 30s in your parents box room you might have a different view. Doesn't bother me, just like all the writers and opinion formers. My house has increased in value by about 40% in the last two years thanks to the pressures caused by inward migration and the inability for construction to keep up.

briany

I don't get the sense that Putin is participating in these talks in order to get a peace deal. What I think he wants to see happen is an end to US support for Ukraine.

So, it'll probably be a case of talks, production of a peace plan that is weighted heavily in favour of Russia, Ukraine rejects it, Trump shrugs and says, "Well, I tried!" before cutting off the flow of aid to Ukraine.

I find it pretty hard to believe, anyway, that Putin would genuinely settle for what Russia currently hold. Why would he when the Feb 2022 objective was to overrun the entire country? Plus Putin seems to really think in grand historical terms and Ruski Mir. Can someone like that really live without Kiev and Odessa? These cities were two of the crown jewels of the Russian empire after Moscow.

Quin_Dub

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123169909#Comment_123169909

Like I have said , show me a single comment from Trump and his "team" indicating anything that Russia will have to give up ?

Every single statement thus far has been about what Ukraine will have to accept or what they will have to surrender.

Not a word about what price Putin will have to pay for his invasion of a Sovereign state.

Any normal negotiation begins with both sides asking for more than they think they will get and more than they will really settle for and then bartering their way to a middle ground that they both can live with but Trumps zero-sum transactional brain only allows for there to be a winner and a loser.

He has already decided that Ukraine is the loser here and all that remains to agree on how much they will actually lose.

Again, that's not negotiation that appeasement and capitulation to a bully and a thug.

Tell me how

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123169929#Comment_123169929

Trump was asked in a press meeting about the fact that Ukraine is giving up a lot and "What is Russia giving up?"

He spoke for over 2 minutes without suggesting anything that Russia is giving up. These actions by Trump would be condemned by every US President since WW2.

Field east

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123168674#Comment_123168674

that’s a question for one mark . A six mark question would be like ‘ if there are ten live crows/birds on a tree and I shoot one how many remain on the tree?

odyssey06

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123169909#Comment_123169909

Whataboutery and desperate whataboutery at that.

They diffused it because of the threat if nuclear war hanging over both sides if they didn't de-escalate and stick to the agreement. Russia is not the USSR in its external dealings, or we wouldn't have Sweden and Finland joining NATO. That's the verdict of previously militarily neutral countries.

So why should Putin be trusted to abide by any agreement that isn't backed by NATO / nuclear force?

Ukraine adhered to Budapest, Russia did not.

Peace is more than just a temporary truce, and that is how Russia has viewed any such agreements in the past with Moldova, Ukraine, in Chechnya.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123169929#Comment_123169929

US aid to Ukraine will be ending under Trump anyway, if it hasn't already, Putin doesn't need to plámás Trump to get that happen.

Assuming the war is going well for Putin there's no way he'd settle for what he has now! Is the war going well enough for Putin that he can settle for what he has?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123169942#Comment_123169942

It's unlikely that Russia would have had to give anything up in any peace negotiations, except maybe rebuild costs of Ukraine from destroying it during the war.

aloyisious

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123169856#Comment_123169856

Its worth being annoyed with the EU and the UK if one thinks they weren't negotiating with Putin to end the war between Russia and Ukraine on the European continent but I submit they were. The EU, amongst other bodies, imposed sanctions on Russia and its head of state to persuade it and him to cease the war on Ukraine. Think of them as using alternative methods of negotiation [liken to Trumps tariffs in his trade war with the world] to encourage Putin to pull his forces back within his countries borders and end his attacks on Ukraine.

Trump is insisting on having no US troops on the ground in Ukraine on there being a ceasefire as part of his effort to end the war. That suggests to me he knows the area could return to a "live-fire" zone at the drop of a hat despite the withdrawal of "all" forces. He is insistent on no body-bags being flown home to the US as a result of his getting the US involved in ending the war.

I'm going to use a term here that Trump does not like; he has also attached a quid pro quo in his efforts by telling Zelenskyy that he wants him to give the US access to the mineral rights on Ukraine's territory in return for his efforts as US president to end the war. One has to assume that he thinks Russia will pull out of the mineral-rich areas of Ukraine it holds as part of his end of war plan there. Maybe, in his long phone-call with Putin, Trump got guarantees that the Russians would pull out of those areas and let the US have free access to the minerals.

Field east

Re BRICS members , Maybe he is mixing up Spain with Russia. He was wondering a few spweeks ago if Spain was a member of it

Leroy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123169909#Comment_123169909

Trustworthy? Russia invaded Ukraine. That is the start and end of this.

Whether Ukraine is trustworthy or not is irrelevant. There is a very simple path to peace, a path that Ukraine fully supports.

Russia simply has to withdraw from its illegal attempt to invade Ukraine.

And Trump completely understands this and completely agrees with Ukraine's stance. How do I know? Trump repeatedly claims that a country's borders are its most important part and must be respected and anyone who illegally enters must be returned.

The only difference here is that clearly Trump is working for the benefit of Putin. There is no other explanation. He expects, and you seemingly, for Ukraine to accept things that he would never even contemplate.

twinytwo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123170007#Comment_123170007

Ya but he also wants to be the one who ended the war - do not underestimate trumps ego.

Plus he wants both China and Russia to get on board with reducing nukes. He will want to keep Putin sweet.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123169978#Comment_123169978

What have the EU done in the last 3 years? Sanctioned Russia, given Ukraine money and weapons and said Ukraine can eventually join the block. Not exactly a negotiation tactic. Trump rang up Putin less than a month into his presidency and had a 90 minute conversation about ending the war

MrMusician18

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123169613#Comment_123169613

To be fair to the Americans, the one thing they've got right is ice cream. It has to be minimum 20% cream iirc. European ice cream (thanks to a directive) on the other hand doesnt actually have to have any dairy cream in it at all. Its why it's cheap tasting gummy shite.

Red Silurian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123170007#Comment_123170007

And why did Russia invade Ukraine? Because Putin believes… something or other… it's irrelevant what he believes. If he doesn't trust Zelensky he won't talk to him

Before Russia invaded, Macron went to visit Putin in Russia, what's he done since to try and bring the 2 teams to the negotiating table, feck all is what

briany

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123169975#Comment_123169975

It's not like we didn't all know it would end under the Trump administration, which doesn't do much to allay my suspicion that these proposed talks between Russia and the US are therefore little more than a sham when it comes to settling that conflict in a way that would see both sides giving and getting. In fact, it seems like their main purpose is more of a flimsy pretext to begin normalising relations between the two countries once again.

To answer the question of whether the war is going well enough for Putin, you'd have to look at what he wants, what he (or really his people) is willing to endure, and what he thinks he has left in the tank.

To begin, he wants the whole of Ukraine, or at least everything east of the Carpathians. When you look at how much, as they call it, the great patriotic war is venerated in Russia and how much respect is given to those millions of people who were slaughtered in pursuit of victory, you get the sense that Russia doesn't mind throwing a couple of million at a war, if the prize is great enough. Putin looks upon Ukraine as essentially Russian territory that has only been 'sovereign' by an accident internal Soviet politics. To him, the idea that it could fall out of his sphere of influence is utterly intolerable. So, I'm sure he'd be happy to throw another million men at the issue, if it means getting the whole thing.

eightieschewbaccy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123170083#Comment_123170083

Except the reason is relevant, he didn't invade because of a lack of trust in Zelensky. He invaded because he wanted complete control over Ukraine. The reason Yanukovych was ousted was because he was a pawn of Putin's and Ukrainians wanted a closer relationship with the EU. So it's not just NATO, he wants to prevent Ukraine from even determining their economic future.

Leroy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123170083#Comment_123170083

They have all asked him to stop his illegal invasion and he has repeatedly refused.

You seem to be of the view that criminals should be allowed to decide the basis of what they get. Is that your approach to everything? Is that Trumps approach to illegal immigration? That since they are here they need to be talked to?

What is your reason as to why Putin shouldn't have to leave Ukraine?

ZeroThreat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123169903#Comment_123169903

The only peace the Russians and their followers have ever sought throughout history was the peace of the grave.

Leroy42

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123170083#Comment_123170083

But the EU doesn't trust Putin, which is pretty understandable given he launched an illegal invasion of Ukraine, but you think Europe should be talking to Putin. Double standards a bit?

The Phantom Jipper

It's strange Trump isn't driving a harder bargain here. He makes wild and unpredictable threats against US allies to try and shake things up and strengthen their negotiating position, but when it comes to Russia, it's complete capitulation and caving to their every demand. It's almost as if the theories about him being a Russian stooge are true.

briany

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/123170135#Comment_123170135

Is the reason he's a Russian stooge because of this?

j62

We are either approaching or have went past the Trump “jumps the shark” moment

Where his daily brainfarts become ever more bizzare and people just go “yeh ok grandpa”

He is also systematically dismantling the state and bureaucracy, but it’s this bureaucracy that gives his executive orders power

One day he will sign an order and there be literally no one to carry it out

MrMusician18

From the public pronouncements it really sounds like the Ukrainian deal is almost done via back channels.

And that same deal sounds more like a 19 century carve up of a country by two imperial powers with no regard for the country itself - not even in the room. It's definitely back to a "might is right" era