BRITISH GENERAL ELECTION - 4TH JULY

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122184663#Comment_122184663

Time to rebalance to favour the people who actually have to keep the country ticking over rather than those who are waiting to die and penny pinching all the way to the grave.

What an awful perspective.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122183761#Comment_122183761

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122184562#Comment_122184562

Nonsense.

16 year olds can work, drive a car, pay tax & national insurance. They should absolutely have the ability to vote so they can be represented. There was quite a kerfuffle in the past about, "No taxation without representation" if you remember.

Unless of course you think, "well no, how about moving the minimum employment age & minimum driving age up to 18? They're your two fair choices.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122184699#Comment_122184699

I visit England quite often and that exactly what it's become. Awful but true.

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122184705#Comment_122184705

You're trying to frame the case from a practical perspective. In reality, 16-17 year olds are simply being used for gerrymandering reasons — almost all who vote will opt for the Labour Party.

That would be the primary reason the policy is introduced, not because they can drive a car.

If you think the Labour party are actively not thinking of this reason at all, then I would strongly suggest reconsidering your analysis.

vswr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122180290#Comment_122180290

doubt it… current trend seems to be Labour majority, or at worst, Labour/Lib Dem (with possible Greens) coalition…similar to 2010

vswr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122184521#Comment_122184521

not that bizarre really…. there are enough 80's era military vets in the peak voting demographic left, that think teens and young adults lack structure, drive and discipline that they all "got" during their service… The Tory's have also systematically degraded UK defence the last 14 years…. could turn out to be a good move for the Tory's by Sunak.

Remember, the grey hair brigade voted in Brexit… the 18-25 yo demographic don't vote, so their futures are decided by the 55-85 bracket.

Jack Daw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122184590#Comment_122184590

Thats fair enough but Labour have spent a long while now saying "we're better than the conservatives, whats good for the country is what we want , not what is good for us"

Then as soon as they get into power the change their tune very quickly and act purely out of self interest and do what they can to preserve their power.

It shows that all politicians really are out for their own self interest and parties self interest and not the country.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122184713#Comment_122184713

You're misusing the word gerrymandering. Whatever the merits, or lack thereof, of giving 16 year olds the vote, it's not gerrymandering.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122184713#Comment_122184713

You're trying to frame the case from a practical perspective. 

Good Lord! How dare I?!

 In reality, 16-17 year olds are simply being used for gerrymandering reasons — almost all who vote will opt for the Labour Party.

Or you know, Tories could actually listen to the concerns of the youth and try and woo their vote. Britain is a democracy, the Tories are not "entitled" to govern (sidebar, don't they always go on about hating the entitled class?)

That would be the primary reason the policy is introduced, not because they can drive a car.

If you think the Labour party are actively not thinking of this reason at all, then I would strongly suggest reconsidering your analysis.

Oh, absolutely, but it matters not one jot. If they can pay tax, they should be represented. If the Tories are that concerned, develop policies specific to that electorate. There's nothing in the rule book that says Tories can only attempt to woo the pale, stale and male.

How are you coming along with your definition of fascism? It's crazy how hard it has been for you to find a definition of fascism that you agree with. It really smacks of someone who doesn't know what they're talking about and shouldn't be taken seriously. Proof of course being in the misquote in your sig that has been pointed out to you time and time again. If it only it was easy to google, copy, paste and edit a sig. It's almost like you do it on purpose to wind people up. Something we used to call flamebaiting around here, which was once a bannable offence, but then boards changed and engagement was more important than civility.

Jack Daw

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122184608#Comment_122184608

Which is wrong also , apart from Photo ID which should a prerequisite for voting in any country.

I always find it odd that people think Voter ID and the UK and America is horrific yet if I want to vote next week I'll have to present my passport or drivers license or maybe my public services card in order to be allowed to cast my vote.Which is exactly the way it should be.

vswr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122184654#Comment_122184654

joining at 16 is heavily caveated….its not a case of just rocking up, joining, doing 3 star training and going to war…

-needs parental consent

-considered a "Junior soldier" until 17yrs 6 months when they start to complete final training in time for 18yo

-only regular soldier at 18

It's seen as a sort of apprenticeship (which you can also do any at 16 onwards)

concerned_tenant

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122184732#Comment_122184732

No, I referred to the policy as "electoral gerrymandering" — i.e. trying to redraw and expand the electorate only to suit the needs of a specific party.

What we're seeing here is hypocrisy; that manipulating the electorate is considered acceptable only if the "right party" is doing it.

Flaneur OBrien

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122184748#Comment_122184748

What you call "manipulating the mandate", others call as giving taxable people representation.

I know it's pointless asking you questions, but what is stopping from the Tories from making some policies so that 16 year olds would choose to vote for them, instead of Labour? (By the way, I believe it's the Greens that would be the dominant party these days in the 16-18 age bracket.)

Edited to add:

What we're seeing here is hypocrisy; that manipulating the electorate is considered acceptable only if the "right party" is doing it.

The difference of course being is one party wants to ADD to the electorate, and give people more of a say, and the other wants to TAKEAWAY voters from the electorate.




magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122184725#Comment_122184725

How many people will they have won over with this though? The average 'they should bring back national service' person wasn't likely to have been intending to vote lib dem anyway. To me, it sounds like something designed to appeal to the party base rather than floating voters.

And that won't win an election.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122184748#Comment_122184748

You'd have called giving women the vote gerrymandering too?

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122184742#Comment_122184742

Fair point but if they can join the armed forces, they should be able to vote.

Capt'n Midnight

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122184521#Comment_122184521

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0ZZJXw4MTA

Here's another good laugh this explains it fully. And how polling companies work too. Yes Prime Minister , Series 1 episode 2 "The Ministerial Broadcast" First shown 16 January 1986

This measure doesn't affect anyone who'll vote on it. Unless the Tories become super competent roll it out quickly enough to catch some of the youngest voters.

And it's not really national service. Non-military volunteering would involve 25 days with organisations such as the fire service, the police and the NHS. ie. one weekend a month.

And of course this being well thought out such that "Military conscription has never applied in Northern Ireland, and so far there are no details about what would happen there." Doubly so since no one in NI will elect a Tory. (unless it's a hung parliament that relies on unionism but the DUP could take a hit this time out.)

A Dub in Glasgo

The indignation from some at the thought of 16&17 year old getting a vote is laughable

magicbastarder

Just thinking, it'd possibly be a great move by labour or the lib Dems to release figures on how many of their MPs got involved in volunteering or community service or the like (which is what this national service is being portrayed as) before they became involved in politics, and asked would the Tories do the same.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122184738#Comment_122184738

The issue is that there is no statutary photo ID in the UK so people who are perfectly entitled to vote but do not own a driving license or passport are barred from voting. Thats simply wrong.
The premise of compulsory photo ID to vote is based upon the bogus notion that election fraud is widespread when there is no evidence for this at all. It is simply naked Gerrymandering to exclude a demographic who will tend to vote Labour.

Flaneur OBrien

I think it's fair to say I would be classed by many users here as a, "leftie".

But I also believe in public service. Whether thats civil, or military. I like Austria's system (except I would have it for all, currently Austria is males only). 6 months military or 9 months civil. I would also have this directly after the leaving cert. Most people would benefit from a year away from study between leaving cert and college.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122184832#Comment_122184832

It should be a choice, not an obligation though. It's also obscenely unfair to expect only 18 year olds to this while exempting everyone else.

2Greyfoxes

Lowering the voting age to 16 sounds good until we factor in that young people are more prone to extremism and radicalism due to their limited life experiences.

I'd push for increasing the voting age to 25, same with alcoholc consumption. That is when the frontal lobe is mature, so the person in question is more likely to have a greater understanding of how complex life is.

As for the while National Service thing, it isn't just National Servoce, but also volunteer work for charities being made mandatory (bit of an juxtaposition there) for those who are unemployed and not in further education. So, there are ways around it, get a job (not always easy), or study. A lot of other European countries do this, and that seems to work well, so can't see the issue with it for the UK.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122184731#Comment_122184731

That assumes that its not the right policy. I don't share that assumption.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122184840#Comment_122184840

Have you any evidence for this? In my experience, the people with the most extreme views are older people who often live in real life echo chambers.

vswr

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122184795#Comment_122184795

if it were black and white where they had potential to go to war… of course..

No one under 18 goes to war currently.

Some of the training applied to a "junior soldier" is similar to the training you go through if you join cadets (12-18yo)

Should 12yo's vote? Your argument would point towards it.

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122184832#Comment_122184832

In a system governed by Neo-liberal economic dogma - no system of national service would ever get over the starting line. Why because its massively expensive and would require huge numbers of additional public servants to administer. Its just a cynical ploy.
I don't personally have any issue with some form of public service (but compulsory military service is a big no no for me) if it was adequately funded and actually brought educational value to the participants.

They did away with the old National Service for a good reason - it brought no value to anyone and the armed services hated it.

magicbastarder

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122184832#Comment_122184832

I doubt anyone would have an issue with the idea of teenagers, or anyone else, doing volunteering or community work. But a party proposing to make people do it, a party which has not exactly been kind to community projects where they're most needed; a real 'final sting of a dying wasp' election promise just looks farcical.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122184860#Comment_122184860

I'm not interested in strawmen. We're done.

ancapailldorcha

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122184864#Comment_122184864

Neoliberalism is very happy with increased spending on the armed forces and those guns, ships and aircraft all need people to use them.