Question on Employment Law - Employee Data

chairde

I've worked for Company A for around 7 years. Got taken over by a US corporate a couple of years ago. They have just moved to a new HR system and are looking for lots of new personal info on employees - Education history, previous employments, next of kin education history(!), smoker or non-smoker (and there's no health insurance plan), etc.
Given that they cannot need this information (particularly the education history) to decide whether to hire me or not (after 7 years) do they have legal grounds to request this information? Under GDPR they must have a valid reason to keep data on a data subject. Can I refuse to provide it?
TIA

Trampas

Never mind information on you but on non employees I doubt they’ve any reason why they could require any information. They could ask for next of kin contact information in case of emergency and even at that it would be optional. Data commissioner office might be interested in reasons why. Sorry I’m no real help but is it a case of a company coming into a different country and expect they can do what they want as they can get away with it in the own country

Jim2007

Well having worked at a couple of European HQs of US corporates, I’d say they tend to be well aware of things like data laws etc as many of the senior staff are European.

As for educational background I’d expect it is needed for work force planning - who needs training? Who is best qualified to move up when someone decides to go and so on. In large organizations many of the decisions about your career are made by people who have no knowledge of you beyond your HR file. If it does not show that you have a particular qualification or experience, then it will be assumed you have not got them and they will move on to someone else that has an up to date HR file. And most likely you will never know.

You need to decide what you want out of this employment - if you have no interest beyond next months pay cheque and don’t care about being targeted for the next round of redundancies, then do nothing. If you want to be considered for training, career progression, recognition etc then make sure your profile is updated and reflects your abilities.

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122079252#Comment_122079252

Where does next of kin education record fit any of that?

28064212

They can request, but they can't fire you for refusing to provide it. It's not hard for them to show reasons for wanting any of that information, but they can't force you to provide it.

However, you will need to consider the non-legal ramifications. In some organisations, refusing may paint a target on yourself and you could find yourself being managed out, or limit your promotion opportunities

FishOnABike

Is there a union in the company? This sounds like a situation where a union would be useful to push back against this overreach by the company while avoiding ramifications for individual employees.

It sounds very much like a corporate HR solution developed in the USA is being applied corporate wide without due regard to the different employment and privacy legislation in different countries.

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122079308#Comment_122079308

I'd agree with the first para - except for next-of-kin education history, that's just weird. In some cases, the employee would not even have that information (eg do you know what your mother got for leaving cert, where and when?)

And that you need to decide your goals. How easily you'd get acceptable work elsewhere comes into play, and whether you want a payout and have the stamina for a protracted legal fight to get it.

The law is definitely on your side. But sometimes the law is an ass that is difficult to enforce, without some very uncomfortable consequences.

You could just ignore the request totally.

You could provide the things you think are reasonable, and ignore the rest.

You could politely request the reason they need the data, and what they plan to do with it. This may get you targetted for removal - or it could mark you as someone smart and reasonable, particularly if you then go on to give them reasonable data.

You could bend over backwards and give them to much detail they don't know what to do with it

And a good few options in between.

Victor

https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0985699/quotes/

Colonel Mertz von Quirnheim: "Any problem on Earth can be solved with the careful application of high explosives. The trick is not to be around when they go off."

Oh, did I post in the wrong thread?

Victor

Should "next of kin education history" read "next of kin, education history"?

Jim2007

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122079267#Comment_122079267

And I’m supposed to know that because? Seriously get a life!

moderator: Jim2007 was warned for this.

Avatar in the Post

There’s nothing stopping the company asking for the information. If the unions start asking GDPR questions the company will probably give the reasons suggested above. The company may excuse those not willing to provide the information. You’ll have the go getters listing their scouts badge for fire making, and those less confident being reticent.

Either way the company will have or have not certain information for you. Not will mean the system effectively says you don’t have x qualifications etc.

As for next of Kin, there’s an obvious reason for that. But, nobody is obliged to supply or even have a next of kin. Not having one would be odd though.

Jim_Hodge

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122079712#Comment_122079712

Sorry, you seemed to be justifying the data the company was asking for. No need to get narky. It was only a question, as you seemed to know why they where looking for all the information.

magicbastarder

Out of curiosity, are they passively or actively looking for this info?

For example, have you logged into this HR system to view your profile, and have spotted these extra fields? Or have they sent a mail around asking you to log in to provide this info?

matrim

Are you sure it isn't a typo and supposed to be

next of kin, education history

Not

next of kin education history

The first version is fine. The second one isn't

csirl

An employer has no legal right to request education history of a next of kin. Under GDPR a company must have a valid reason to hold personal data on file. It must also have the expressed consent of the individual concerned i.e. you cannot give your company permission to hold your next of kins data.

28064212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122079990#Comment_122079990

It must also have the expressed consent of the individual concerned

That's obviously not true. If that was the case, no data controller could ever hold emergency contact details. Consent is just one way to establish a right to hold information, but there are others.

I agree that it's highly unlikely that data on the next of kin's education history is going to be justifiable.

AnnieinDundrum

out of curiosity I had a look at the profile section of our HR trime recording system.

there are lots of fields that I’ve never bothered to fill in, and I’ve never been asked. Including gender, marital status, bank details… so maybe that’s all that happened here. An off the shelf package

Mrs OBumble

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122081175#Comment_122081175

I would suspect similar: a package, combited with an inexperienced US-based junior HR person.

An employee who responds reasonably, rather than kicking off about their rights, could do good things for their reputation.

hullaballoo

seems like at a minimum I'd want my employer to have my bank details but each to their own i guess…

Oscar_Madison

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122079692#Comment_122079692

you’re clever - no grass growing under your feet 🤪

FishOnABike

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122081701#Comment_122081701

"Education history" was already listed so it does look like it is asking for "next of kin education history" without the comma. Why is anyone's guess. Even for my own education history I'd be inclined to only include third level qualifications, without dates and any current professional certifications.

AnnieinDundrum

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122081686#Comment_122081686

no, payroll department already have them.

The HR system I am referring to is not part of the payroll system, this seems is there for tracking annual leave, sick days and hours worked. There are no links between this system and payroll. For staff who are paid overtime there is a different process.

Victor

You could make a complaint that you received a phishing email that was looking for all sorts of data.

witchgirl26

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122081961#Comment_122081961

It could be for expenses. In my org, expenses are recorded in the same system that has annual leave etc. Expenses aren't paid through payroll but through this system.

Anyway, I know my org does ask for a lot of the information noted although the next of kin education history does seem a bit wild. A lot of the systems have the options to include these areas but don't enforce them. The education history for the employee though might be one that they want to ensure that they have in a database & they're probably doing this for all current employees whereas new ones would have this automatically put in as part of the hiring process.

The smoker/non-smoker one - so while you might not have health insurance, there is probably a death in service benefit that is in place for all employees. This would pay out if you die while you are an employee of the company (doesn't have to be in the workplace or a workplace accident). The risk profile & premium may be increased if someone is a smoker which is why they're asking. Now information like this they can't demand, but they can always ask.

AnnieinDundrum

no our expenses are paid by the payroll department who maintain their own records.

these fields exist in our hr system but we’ve never been asked to complete them, that was my point. An off the shelf package with lots of potential

witchgirl26

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122085207#Comment_122085207

Yes but my point is that the system may have this capability even if your org isn't using it at the moment.

There's a lot of possible reporting under the heading of "sustainability" around diversity & inclusion which a lot of those areas would fall under. You can't legally make employees fill in the information but you can ask them to or leave it there for them to do. Only place you can legally ask religion in Europe is Northern Ireland - there it's a requirement to track levels.

28064212

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122085366#Comment_122085366

Only place you can legally ask religion in Europe is Northern Ireland

That's incorrect. The only place you are required to ask about religion is Nothern Ireland. In Ireland, you can legally ask about religion (or any of the protected characteristics). From an employer's perspective, it's generally not a good idea to ask unless (a) you can clearly demonstrate a legitimate interest in capturing it and (b) you can clearly show that you don't discriminate on the basis of that characteristic. Otherwise you're just begging for a discrimination action.

witchgirl26

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122085556#Comment_122085556

Sorry I misworded it. You can ask anywhere but you can't require that anyone fill it in. In Northern Ireland, it's a requirement. Although it's only Catholic or Protestant that they're interested in so most places have those options & then just an "Other" box to tick.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058349482/question-on-employment-law-employee-data

Ask them for their privacy policy. What's their purpose in processing this data, where will it be stored, how long will it be retained.

Ideally, get your union to ask these awkward questions.

Avatar in the Post

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122120953#Comment_122120953

The OP has clocked off. They didn’t even clarify a clearly incorrect statement that had been questioned. No more time should be wasted, imo.

AndrewJRenko

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122121163#Comment_122121163

As with most of these discussions, their value goes way beyond the OP.