Injury awards slashed - supreme court confirms it

DataDude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121998587#Comment_121998587

‘Rate’ is used in insurance where premiums go up for reasons other than changes in exposure. Price increases pushed through by insurers essentially, following losses in preceding years.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121998514#Comment_121998514

’good’ is subjective but anyone who deals with the central bank will say they are incredibly detailed, many would say to the point of being intrusive. They are the opposite of alseep on the wheel which is a natural over correction to 2007.

Many firms have left (e.g. Zurich Group) because they see the Irish regulator as too much work to deal with.

CarProblem

Rates/Prices were cut after the guidelines were introduced in April 2021 - this simply means that (as things stand) all bets are still on and companies won't need to increase prices to account for pre guideline awards. However the awards are under review (it's 3 years since implementation) and there are rumours (just rumours mind you) of blanket increases

If awards are revised upwards and damage claim inflation continues (that has been crazy in the last few years) prices will go up again

For those accusing insurers of "gouging" you probably should (but probably won't) read the latest NCID report. If a 99% COR from 2009-22 is gouging and/or you think there's a massive conspiracy to lie about profitability then I'm afraid I can't help you

https://www.centralbank.ie/docs/default-source/statistics/data-and-analysis/national-claims-information-database/private-motor-insurance-report-5.pdf?sfvrsn=1bb9d1d_5

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121998243#Comment_121998243

they do nothing but pass paper around, look at many industries who operate on lower margins, they have a captive audience, forced to buy insurance, a lot of money passes through their hands and they take a fine cut of this

tescos would bite your arm off for a guaranteed 5% margin

if you count out the 2014 years they are running well above 5%, it would be good to know the details of these years, whether it was a throwback to lower premiums sold end of celtic tiger catching up, dont think the details are there

I think car insurance if you have years of no claims etc is at a decent level

boardlady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121997568#Comment_121997568

Unfortunately, the death of someone is only worth the loss of solatium - capped at €35,000 in Ireland. An injury is always more 'lucrative' than a death …

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000029#Comment_122000029

this is just motor claims, where is this inflation you speak off, it seems steady in the report, whether it be offset by a fairly large drop in the number of claims despite a rise in the numbers insured

the gravy train was the personal injuries like yer wan in the ops article

tree throwers

swing fallers

CarProblem

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000384#Comment_122000384

"this is just motor claims" - indeed, here's Liability. 107% COR over the same period

https://www.centralbank.ie/docs/default-source/statistics/data-and-analysis/national-claims-information-database/ncid-employers-liability-insurance-report-3.pdf?sfvrsn=bfc1631a_8

"where is this inflation you speak off, it seems steady in the report" - page 11, average damage costs up 35% between 2020-22. Add on double digit inflation in 2023 and 2024 already showing similar

What had happened after Covid was the number of injury claims dropped (at least in part due to PIG) which meant that rates did not necessarily have to increase to fully offset massive damage inflation. This level of inflation is continuing whereas injury frequencies appear to have flat lined.

DataDude has already been through all this and shown far more patience than I ever could - so my last word will be to repeat If a 99% COR from 2009-22 is gouging (107% from the liability report) and/or you think there's a massive conspiracy to lie about profitability then I'm afraid I can't help you

CarProblem

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000350#Comment_122000350

where's this guaranteed margin? Insurers make decisions today and price for events that haven't happened yet. Profitability can be far better or worse than assumed when the policies were written as it takes a long time for all the claims to ultimately settle

"if you count out the 2014 years they are running well above 5%" - if you ignore all the bad news then you only get good news…….

Good grief……. *Dragon's Den voice* I'm out

El Gato De Negocios

In the last 5 years

Fuel costs soared

Alcohol costs soared

Building and property prices soared

Health insurance prices soared

Electricity soared

Literally everything is more expensive than it was 5 years ago, everything.

But mah car insurance should be cheaper!!!!!

Insurers are also governed by strict (and absolutely necessary) solvency and liquidity requirements.

At the end of the day they are businesses and put huge money back into the economy through taxes and salaries. I'd rather a functioning insurance industry that is guaranteed to pay my claim if and when i need it than saving €100 a year on my premium.

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122001229#Comment_122001229

they control the market entirely

they raise prices to cover anything that comes up, you have to have insurance, you cannot say no

guaranteed

if you ignore the 2014 years which is an unexplained anomaly then it is far higher than 5%, there was no soaring claims in the motor industry

I would reckon it was a problem in other areas

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000929#Comment_122000929

yes but the number of claims offsets this so the total is the same

the issue in the op is personal injuries, these are supposed to have dropped

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122001589#Comment_122001589

its not car insurance

its insurance with personal injuries involved which have been capped. Capped, reduced. Not affected by inflation, inflation proof

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122002243#Comment_122002243

Personal injuries are a huge factor in car insurance.

Whiplash claims plummeted when the new guidelines came out and I suspect may vanish entirely now.

What's starting to affect car insurance badly now is parts supply for repairs - people are claiming for weeks/months of car hire and some cars are being written off when clearly repairable due to said weeks/months to get parts.

El Gato De Negocios

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122002243#Comment_122002243

What's your point? I'm aware of what the thread was about, my post was addressing people complaining about their motor insurance not coming down.🙃

hold my beer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121997931#Comment_121997931

You should shop around. Mine has being going down for years.

CarProblem

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122002098#Comment_122002098

why oh why am I letting myself be dragged back in…………….. Seriously - this is my last post, II said the last one was but I simply can't let such ignorance of facts go unchallenged

TLDR: you haven't a clue what you're talking about

you're saying

• if we ignore the unprofitable years insurers make a profit every year GUARANTEED. Well of course 🙄
• If we ignore the insurers that went bust (RSA, Quinn, Setanta etc.) in the past 10-15 years all the others are always profitable and never go bust GUARANTEED. Well of course 🙄

Keep repeating GUARANTEED - the more you say it the more true it is……. 🙄. Utter claptrap

2014 is not an unexplained anomaly. During 2014 claims cost rose almost overnight (revision of book of quantum upwards, introduction of Recovery of Benefits and Assistance (RBA) Scheme and a number of other impacts). Then the Russell judgment in 2016 reduced the discount rate for catastrophic cases (more bad news). You see this in the NCID data. The increase in costs affected all open claims, not just those from accidents that happened from 2014 onwards so you see a change of well over 30% from 2010-14 (page 25). Insurers would have been pricing 2010-14 on the "old" lower award basis - they were hammered when awards went up (as in they'd to retrospectively cover losses not just from 2014 but older years as well where with hindsight it was shown they'd underpriced). Losses in the period were horrific and premiums increased as a result post 2014 (see page 18). Try getting profits GUARANTEED when changes in the claims environment occur impacting profitability of policies you sold many years previously………

"yes but the number of claims offsets this so the total is the same" - for a period this was true(ish), injury numbers dropped which offset massive inflation in damage claims (a blind man can see the graph on page 26 of damage costs is not "steady" as you claim 🙄). Damage costs (and numbers of damage claims) are continuing to rise yet injury numbers have stopped decreasing, i.e. the offset is no longer applying ⇒ price increases are now going in again across the market

"the issue in the op is personal injuries, these are supposed to have dropped" - awards for more minor injuries have dropped. Insurers reduced prices in response (despite what some people claim). The reduction is in, prices are not going to reduce again for an impact already priced for in 2021. Note - PIG has no impact on larger awards.

"its insurance with personal injuries involved which have been capped. Capped, reduced. Not affected by inflation, inflation proof" - they have not been "capped". They have been reduced for lower value awards and are subject to a range (not simply one size fits all values). Nothing has happened with respect to larger cases. Legal fees are also increasing (not "inflation proof") and nothing to stop a claimant rejecting PIAB and entering litigation (more costs to be paid and typically awards higher than originally awarded by PIAB)

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003310#Comment_122003310

they are making 5% easy even with the loss years, which are outliers

theres not explanation of these years, given the other stats in the report, given the very stable system they work in ffs

the normal years are more like 12%

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122002260#Comment_122002260

this is the point, personal injuries are now capped, inflation proof

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122002438#Comment_122002438

the one the poster above you made