Injury awards slashed - supreme court confirms it

JVince

<snip>

A little trip no longer means hitting the injury payout jackpot. Brigit Delaney, a member of the travelling community from Dungarvan has been the test case for this and the legal eagles threw everything at it including THREE senior counsel in order to save the gravy train they had been riding for many years.

They have failed. We are finally in tune with reality.

https://www.irishtimes.com/crime-law/courts/2024/04/09/supreme-court-majority-rules-personal-injury-guidelines-slashing-awards-have-legal-effect/

Boggles

Can't wait for way cheaper insurance now.

Oh wait, that hasn't a hope of happening has it?

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121996288#Comment_121996288

My car insurance has never been cheaper.

I've never been this bloody old before either though.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121996294#Comment_121996294

Mine has gone up steadily.

Usual excuses, war, petulance, disease, etc, etc.

Also cheapest car insurance would have been about 15 years ago when they were racing to the bottom.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121996304#Comment_121996304

15 years ago

Sean Quinn the hero we need

The real reason insurance is so high here is the legal sector. Irish legal fees are way out of whack with the continent - and the fact that courts routinely award costs against the insurer even when they win (because deeper pockets) means insurance costs will never drop to the European norms.

Also though we have genuine cartel like behaviour here with insurers making rip roaring profits too

o1s1n

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121996304#Comment_121996304

I bought a new car recently and it made my insurance jump from €450 to €950. Same sized engine as the previous one. Nobody from the insurance company was able to give me a clear answer as to why outside of some generic bullshit scripted reasons.

Immediately cancelled and went with another company who were happy to offer the same level of insurance for €333.

I know it's an absolute pain in the hole switching but it's definitely worth shopping around.

gmisk

So she got 3k for tripping on a footpath?

Still easy money.

Non paywall articles below.

https://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/supreme-court-dismisses-challenge-against-personal-injuries-guidelines-1610982.html

https://www.breakingnews.ie/business/court-challenge-against-new-personal-injuries-guidelines-1156320.html

AyeGer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121996294#Comment_121996294

I think it’s important to stop these ridiculous comp claims. Hopefully our insurance costs will reduce eventually as these spurious compo claims go down.

DataDude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121996288#Comment_121996288

Motor insurance premiums are down over 20% in nominal terms since 2018 per the central bank. Inflation in the same period is up 20% (per CSO). So a near 40% real reduction in motor insurance in just 5 years.

The UK have had premiums go up almost 50% in the last 18 months alone due to the cost of repairing cars going up by far more than underlying inflation and the cost of repairing EVs being higher.

For the first time in forever insurnace in Ireland is far cheaper than in the UK. The reform in the sector has been nothing short of astonishing for which the government should take huge credit.

‘Insurance too expensive’ is so deep in the Irish psyche that no amount of facts can change peoples minds sadly. It could be €100 avg premium and people will still be saying it’s a rip off and needs to come down.

Sono

No one talks about the legal costs paid out to plaintiff solicitors, it is off the charts.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121996456#Comment_121996456

Motor insurance premiums are down over 20% in nominal terms since 2018 per the central bank

Well that is all relative isn't it? 20% down sounds good but 20% down from an eye watering starting point not so good.

Also the figures are skewed by the pandemic.

beachhead

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121996456#Comment_121996456

I would agree that car insurance is cheaper for certain classes in Ireland but not by much.As for reducing premiums here I ain't seen it. I check 14 companies and brokers for quotes each year. The figures they supply are fanciful in about 4

mondeoman72

Can I please ad to this, the insurance companies can be real dicks and they bring this on themselves.

Many a moon ago, an old dear crashed into me on the roundabout at the Hermitage clinic, next to Liffey Valley. I was injured and car damaged. I told them I was injured but if they fixed my car promptly, back to where it was, that would be in full and final settlement. They acted the bollix and dragged it out. I handed it over to the solicitors. IAfter about 18 months, I saw 13 grand in the library of the 4 courts after 2 "solicitors who were very friendly with each other" went in and out a few times to "negotiate a settlement". I have no idea what their fees were, but I saw 13k. Well done Eagle Star!

Clo-Clo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121996288#Comment_121996288

My insurance has gone down over the last few years, lower certainly than it was 5 years ago

hoodie6029

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121996414#Comment_121996414

Under the old system Bridget would have been entitled to about €35000. Ridiculous money. If the same injury happened on your own property and you suffered the same losses, what would it cost you? A few days off work, doctor’s fees, prescriptions and maybe physio, and in Bridget’s case, a waking boot for a few days. €35000 though? No way.
Thankfully the generation of judges and Law Society people and Civil Service are slowing changing so the jackpot payouts are going away.
Not a direct comparison but to give you an idea of how our Legal system values humans. Thornton’s Recycling recently fined €60,000 for health and safety failings that led to the death of a man. Same lawyers, with the same training arguing €35,000 for a twisted ankle….

DataDude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121997209#Comment_121997209

Well I guess we could look at the publicly available central bank data and see motor insurers made a whopping 4% profit margin in 2017 and an 8% margin in 2018 when premiums were at their highest levels. And that was after making an average loss of 16% each year for the preceding 4 years. But hey, let’s not let the facts get in the way of the narrative around insurance prices.

DataDude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121997324#Comment_121997324

Why would you use a sample size of 1 person to decide if premiums are falling when we have both the CSO and Central Bank doing it? The Central bank have data on €1.3bn worth of premium across 2.2 million policies, covering 97% of all policies in the market. The average premium across the market is down c.20%. This is a fact.

Unfortunately it trumps the quotes of 14 companies for 1 person.

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121997837#Comment_121997837

Who provides this data to the central bank again

ednwireland

my insurance is down to the same as it was in 2013 ( fully comp, 360, breakdown, step back no claims etc etc)

Iguarantee

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121996388#Comment_121996388

Your insurance premium is based on multiple factors.
A newer/more valuable car is more expensive to replace. Why wouldn’t your premium go up if you change to a more valuable car?

DataDude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121997845#Comment_121997845

If you’re suggesting all the global insurers in Ireland are collectively falsifying their accounts, fooling the regulator and also colluding with/tricking their auditors to show an artificially lower profit/premium, with the risk of massive fines and ending the careers of the senior individuals doing it - then…sigh…

Oh and when the CSO get their quotes of sample premiums to gauge the level of inflation from the previous period, they are also bogus. Or else the CSO are in on this collusion to pretend premiums are going down when they’re actually up…

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121997881#Comment_121997881

It depends how they are getting the data, it's not necessary accounting data or coming from auditors, it not necessarily profit or loss either that you are seeing, it's not like auditors aren't paid by the very businesses they audit in the first place

I mean why would any companies hide or manipulate figures, cause sigh theyd never do that oh wait

It's strange the lack of detail in the report, why have the grouped the data in such a way

Why no extra details on the sudden switch around from a fairly hefty loss to profit

sliabh 1956

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121996288#Comment_121996288

I think my car insuirance has increased every year for the last 10 years despite having no claims ect. i recall great promises a few years ago to tackle the ever upward trends in Insuirance premiums I will hold my breath at this latest news

DataDude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121997918#Comment_121997918

It is though. All of the data is reconciled by the firms to the quantitative reporting templates they are required to submit the CBI under solvency II that are signed off by the auditors.

Any discrepancy to something as basic as total premiums, total claims, profit in the regulatory submissions would generate an immediate query from the CBI who do their own checks on the validity of the data. I know this because I was on the receiving end of plenty of these queries in a previous job. The CBI have a ridiculous bank of data and are extremely competent at their jobs.

The switch from loss to profit was due to rate increases in 2016-2018. This then bumped further due to the personal injury guidelines applying retrospectively to claims on policies sold years before their introduction (this was an unexpected windfall for insurers) and also COVID massively reducing miles driven in 2020 and 2021.

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121997952#Comment_121997952

Thanks for the information, I was not implying they were lying to anyone

But the report starts with profit, which as you no can and us manipulated heavily

Look at the yearly breakdown of the data

Something happened circa 2013, this is what I meant by grouping the data and the problem with the report

This is throwing it all off, insurance is plenty profitable has a decent margin, no obvious issue with claims going up and up and these 2 years skew it off

I'd say it was post Celtic tiger, maybe the Quinn effect

DataDude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121998095#Comment_121998095

Profit can be manipulated in insurance in the short term through reserving practices but after 4-5 years the profit for a given year of policies is pretty concrete.

Pretty much all insurers aim for 5-6% profit margin over the long term. Thats publicly disclosed to investors (who they’d want to exaggerate prospective profitability to rather than downplay). Historically investment returns on bonds added to this margin but this was negative for many years until 2020.

The Irish market over the last 15 years has maybe just about made this 5% margin. Lost a fortune in motor for about 5 years in mid 2010s. Home insurance has generally done ok until the last couple of years which were not good with inflation.
Nobody made money in Commercial business for about a decade up to 2020 (hence all the exits and inability for anyone to get cover. Brexit didn’t help capacity).

COVID with everyone staying inside and now the personal injury guidelines were hugely unexpected benefits to the industry which has made up for previous losses to get back to that 5% long term target (it will always swing up and down between big profits and big losses, it’s very cyclical and hard to price).

The above is the informed rationale view of the insurance sector in Ireland but it just gets drowned out by ill informed bias of the masses. It’s a real shame as it makes rationale debates impossible.

In terms of the profit margin also. Think of your iPhone, your food at Tesco, your pint in the pub. Almost any business you interact with, I can assure you none of those are operating on a margin anywhere close to as low as 5%. But alas, wasted breath. Insurers will always be ‘gougers’.

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121998243#Comment_121998243

The above is the informed rationale view of the insurance sector in Ireland but it just gets drowned out by ill informed bias of the masses.

Again, my insurance has gone up steadily, shopping around doesn't help. My circumstances have not changed.

When I asked why I was fobbed off with costs, something, something.

So my view is real, rationale and informed and not the result of hysterical media.

I take it you work in insurance, would that be correct?

Boggles

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121997931#Comment_121997931

I actually asked a few people today, all the same. All gone up.

Strange isn't it?

bucketybuck

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121997881#Comment_121997881

I have no bone in this fight but it must be said, a version of this post could and would have been written about the banking and mortgage sectors circa 2007.

There hasn't been a good regulator since Billy the kid.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121997952#Comment_121997952

The switch from loss to profit was due to rate increases in 2016-2018.

What rate increases?

Euro rates were negative until 2020s

DataDude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121998360#Comment_121998360

Premiums have fallen, that is a fact. To say otherwise belongs in conspiracy forum tbh. Could be many reasons yours hasn’t but for most, they have. They have started to rise again in last 12 months but remain far below 2018 levels.

I worked in the sector but no longer do. Stay close enough to understand dynamics.

DataDude

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121998587#Comment_121998587

‘Rate’ is used in insurance where premiums go up for reasons other than changes in exposure. Price increases pushed through by insurers essentially, following losses in preceding years.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121998514#Comment_121998514

’good’ is subjective but anyone who deals with the central bank will say they are incredibly detailed, many would say to the point of being intrusive. They are the opposite of alseep on the wheel which is a natural over correction to 2007.

Many firms have left (e.g. Zurich Group) because they see the Irish regulator as too much work to deal with.

CarProblem

Rates/Prices were cut after the guidelines were introduced in April 2021 - this simply means that (as things stand) all bets are still on and companies won't need to increase prices to account for pre guideline awards. However the awards are under review (it's 3 years since implementation) and there are rumours (just rumours mind you) of blanket increases

If awards are revised upwards and damage claim inflation continues (that has been crazy in the last few years) prices will go up again

For those accusing insurers of "gouging" you probably should (but probably won't) read the latest NCID report. If a 99% COR from 2009-22 is gouging and/or you think there's a massive conspiracy to lie about profitability then I'm afraid I can't help you

https://www.centralbank.ie/docs/default-source/statistics/data-and-analysis/national-claims-information-database/private-motor-insurance-report-5.pdf?sfvrsn=1bb9d1d_5

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121998243#Comment_121998243

they do nothing but pass paper around, look at many industries who operate on lower margins, they have a captive audience, forced to buy insurance, a lot of money passes through their hands and they take a fine cut of this

tescos would bite your arm off for a guaranteed 5% margin

if you count out the 2014 years they are running well above 5%, it would be good to know the details of these years, whether it was a throwback to lower premiums sold end of celtic tiger catching up, dont think the details are there

I think car insurance if you have years of no claims etc is at a decent level

boardlady

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121997568#Comment_121997568

Unfortunately, the death of someone is only worth the loss of solatium - capped at €35,000 in Ireland. An injury is always more 'lucrative' than a death …

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000029#Comment_122000029

this is just motor claims, where is this inflation you speak off, it seems steady in the report, whether it be offset by a fairly large drop in the number of claims despite a rise in the numbers insured

the gravy train was the personal injuries like yer wan in the ops article

tree throwers

swing fallers

CarProblem

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000384#Comment_122000384

"this is just motor claims" - indeed, here's Liability. 107% COR over the same period

https://www.centralbank.ie/docs/default-source/statistics/data-and-analysis/national-claims-information-database/ncid-employers-liability-insurance-report-3.pdf?sfvrsn=bfc1631a_8

"where is this inflation you speak off, it seems steady in the report" - page 11, average damage costs up 35% between 2020-22. Add on double digit inflation in 2023 and 2024 already showing similar

What had happened after Covid was the number of injury claims dropped (at least in part due to PIG) which meant that rates did not necessarily have to increase to fully offset massive damage inflation. This level of inflation is continuing whereas injury frequencies appear to have flat lined.

DataDude has already been through all this and shown far more patience than I ever could - so my last word will be to repeat If a 99% COR from 2009-22 is gouging (107% from the liability report) and/or you think there's a massive conspiracy to lie about profitability then I'm afraid I can't help you

CarProblem

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000350#Comment_122000350

where's this guaranteed margin? Insurers make decisions today and price for events that haven't happened yet. Profitability can be far better or worse than assumed when the policies were written as it takes a long time for all the claims to ultimately settle

"if you count out the 2014 years they are running well above 5%" - if you ignore all the bad news then you only get good news…….

Good grief……. *Dragon's Den voice* I'm out

El Gato De Negocios

In the last 5 years

Fuel costs soared

Alcohol costs soared

Building and property prices soared

Health insurance prices soared

Electricity soared

Literally everything is more expensive than it was 5 years ago, everything.

But mah car insurance should be cheaper!!!!!

Insurers are also governed by strict (and absolutely necessary) solvency and liquidity requirements.

At the end of the day they are businesses and put huge money back into the economy through taxes and salaries. I'd rather a functioning insurance industry that is guaranteed to pay my claim if and when i need it than saving €100 a year on my premium.

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122001229#Comment_122001229

they control the market entirely

they raise prices to cover anything that comes up, you have to have insurance, you cannot say no

guaranteed

if you ignore the 2014 years which is an unexplained anomaly then it is far higher than 5%, there was no soaring claims in the motor industry

I would reckon it was a problem in other areas

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122000929#Comment_122000929

yes but the number of claims offsets this so the total is the same

the issue in the op is personal injuries, these are supposed to have dropped

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122001589#Comment_122001589

its not car insurance

its insurance with personal injuries involved which have been capped. Capped, reduced. Not affected by inflation, inflation proof

L1011

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122002243#Comment_122002243

Personal injuries are a huge factor in car insurance.

Whiplash claims plummeted when the new guidelines came out and I suspect may vanish entirely now.

What's starting to affect car insurance badly now is parts supply for repairs - people are claiming for weeks/months of car hire and some cars are being written off when clearly repairable due to said weeks/months to get parts.

El Gato De Negocios

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122002243#Comment_122002243

What's your point? I'm aware of what the thread was about, my post was addressing people complaining about their motor insurance not coming down.🙃

hold my beer

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121997931#Comment_121997931

You should shop around. Mine has being going down for years.

CarProblem

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122002098#Comment_122002098

why oh why am I letting myself be dragged back in…………….. Seriously - this is my last post, II said the last one was but I simply can't let such ignorance of facts go unchallenged

TLDR: you haven't a clue what you're talking about

you're saying

• if we ignore the unprofitable years insurers make a profit every year GUARANTEED. Well of course 🙄
• If we ignore the insurers that went bust (RSA, Quinn, Setanta etc.) in the past 10-15 years all the others are always profitable and never go bust GUARANTEED. Well of course 🙄

Keep repeating GUARANTEED - the more you say it the more true it is……. 🙄. Utter claptrap

2014 is not an unexplained anomaly. During 2014 claims cost rose almost overnight (revision of book of quantum upwards, introduction of Recovery of Benefits and Assistance (RBA) Scheme and a number of other impacts). Then the Russell judgment in 2016 reduced the discount rate for catastrophic cases (more bad news). You see this in the NCID data. The increase in costs affected all open claims, not just those from accidents that happened from 2014 onwards so you see a change of well over 30% from 2010-14 (page 25). Insurers would have been pricing 2010-14 on the "old" lower award basis - they were hammered when awards went up (as in they'd to retrospectively cover losses not just from 2014 but older years as well where with hindsight it was shown they'd underpriced). Losses in the period were horrific and premiums increased as a result post 2014 (see page 18). Try getting profits GUARANTEED when changes in the claims environment occur impacting profitability of policies you sold many years previously………

"yes but the number of claims offsets this so the total is the same" - for a period this was true(ish), injury numbers dropped which offset massive inflation in damage claims (a blind man can see the graph on page 26 of damage costs is not "steady" as you claim 🙄). Damage costs (and numbers of damage claims) are continuing to rise yet injury numbers have stopped decreasing, i.e. the offset is no longer applying ⇒ price increases are now going in again across the market

"the issue in the op is personal injuries, these are supposed to have dropped" - awards for more minor injuries have dropped. Insurers reduced prices in response (despite what some people claim). The reduction is in, prices are not going to reduce again for an impact already priced for in 2021. Note - PIG has no impact on larger awards.

"its insurance with personal injuries involved which have been capped. Capped, reduced. Not affected by inflation, inflation proof" - they have not been "capped". They have been reduced for lower value awards and are subject to a range (not simply one size fits all values). Nothing has happened with respect to larger cases. Legal fees are also increasing (not "inflation proof") and nothing to stop a claimant rejecting PIAB and entering litigation (more costs to be paid and typically awards higher than originally awarded by PIAB)

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122003310#Comment_122003310

they are making 5% easy even with the loss years, which are outliers

theres not explanation of these years, given the other stats in the report, given the very stable system they work in ffs

the normal years are more like 12%

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122002260#Comment_122002260

this is the point, personal injuries are now capped, inflation proof

monkeybutter

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122002438#Comment_122002438

the one the poster above you made