Are heatpumps the only non fossil fuel option to heat your house?

slave1

Far Infra red heaters (electric)

ColemanY2K

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121991799#Comment_121991799

is a deep retrofit an option? i've seen a few old bungalows undergo this process where they were gutted incl the removal of floors to improve u-values and thermal bridging issues.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121991837#Comment_121991837

Which is irrelevant to the actual running of the heating source.

By that argument you need a air tight house for a gas or oil boiler too.

It is likely that fitting a suitable heating system may not be economically viable in install costs, a heat pump install will buy a lot of gas!

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121983209#Comment_121983209

There are 45 passive houses registered in the country, so a fairly rare specification and circumstance.

The air-tightness thing is a bit weird, given air vents - leakiness - are mandated by regulation in the absence of expensive heat recovery ventilation.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121991755#Comment_121991755

To qualify for a heat pump system grant your home must have sufficiently low heat loss.

You are correct, you can have as much air leakage and heat loss as you like, so long as you don't want the grant and don't mind the running costs.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121992090#Comment_121992090

Rerofitting is an option, but you will likely never recover the cost in your lifetime.

The estimated cost of a deep retrofit for a three-bedroom home is between €60,000 and €70,000.

https://www.irishtimes.com/special-reports/renovate/home-retrofits-a-guide-to-costs-grants-time-frames-and-best-ways-to-approach-the-project-1.4811069

The retrofit grants in Italy are bonkers, being up to 110%. Completely unsustainable of course.

ColemanY2K

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121992251#Comment_121992251

perhaps but there's a lot to be said for living in a comfortable home.

however 60 - 70k is a drop in the ocean compared to what some folk are paying for extensions or loft conversions.

JayBee66

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121992090#Comment_121992090

Very much no.

I did suggest it to Her Majesty but it fell on deaf ears.

When a heat pump goes in the bungalow can only be uprated from it's current BER of B1 to somewhere in the As. Not that I believe the current rating to be correct.

It will then become a good investment for someone else to buy so that we can downsize or emigrate when we are retired.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121992158#Comment_121992158

Its completely relevant - heat pumps are designed to be constantly on topping up the heat but keep rads at a lower temp than conventional rads with oil/gas.

With oil/gas you get a big spike of temp when on which dumps heat into the house, and then later dissipates.

Heat pumps rely on constant on and constant temp, such that they only draw power to top up the temp. But if you have a drafty house your het pump will never be strong enough to get the house up to temp in the first place as the rate of heat loss > rate of heat gain from the pump.

Oil and gas overcome this by getting very very hot in a short space of time, although in a drafty house it could feel cool again after a few hours. A heat pump in drafty house will always feel cool, and the bills will be eye watering.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121992196#Comment_121992196

there a multitude of passive houses in the country that didnt think the €2k cost to be"certfiied" was worth it, so they didnt.

and if you think air vents have anything to do with 'air leakage' and 'air tightness' then im afraid you coming into this from a huge lack of knowledge base. if you understood what they are referring to you wouldnt see it as "weird"

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121992408#Comment_121992408

If you have the right emitters, you can do exactly what you suggested, blast the heat. You could even run a low temperature oil or gas boiler in that setup. And not lose 20% for not being in the condensing mode too(from being very very hot)

Room requires X amount of kW of heat, have enough radiators to output that amount of heat, heat source supplies x amount of heat.

The room may be wall to wall radiators but it will be heated.

Am I suggesting that everyone rip out the oil and gas for heatpumps right now? God no.

But what I am saying is you don't need an airtight house for a heatpump. A heat source is a heat source, if your emitters (radiators, underfloor, fancoils) are designed around it, you can heat anything.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121992443#Comment_121992443

I live in a house on the side of an exposed hill with air vents. I just had my satellite dish torn off a bit over a month ago. I don't 'think' air vents are the antithesis of 'air tightness' I know it for a cold, expensive fact, 'weird' as you might find that.

This study proves that natural ventilation in residential buildings fulfils itsfunction only by increasing the air flow into the building, and that this incurs significant heat lossfrom buildings during the heating season

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/332728343_Optimisation_of_Heat_Loss_through_Ventilation_for_Residential_Buildings_Reprinted_from_Atmosphere_2018_9_95

True Emperor's new clothes stuff to think mandated air ventillation doesn't negatively compromise air tightness or heat loss.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121992648#Comment_121992648

"mandated air ventilation" has been mandated since the inception of the building regulations in 1991, im not sure what youre on about here. Fresh air is a building regulation requirement and VERY necessary for the health of the inhabitants. No idea what thats got to do with gusts blowing down your satellite dish.

Air tightness however has NOTHING got to do with the requirement to provide fresh air to your home.

Air tightness is a measure of how well built you home is, and is there to prevent losing heat through undesigned draughts.

in fact when carrying out "air tightness test" the tester must seal over the air vents (be they wall vents, window vents or MHRV vents) in order to measure the leakage through the building fabric. THIS is the heat loss you want to be reducing, not the fresh air which is required in your home to live healthily.

JayBee66

Are we all saying that so long as the fresh air coming in is heated at a rate equal to or higher than the already warm stale air evacuated from the building then the house will remain warm?

The only factors to consider then are the rate of air changes and the rate at which the heating heats the air.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121993012#Comment_121993012

Not quite, that only applies to the component of heat loss attributable to air leakage/ventilation. The ideal is heat recovery ventillation systems, which extract some of the heat from exhaust air and use it to heat incoming fresh air.

I looked at getting an HRV system in 2002, but it was beyond the budget at around €5-6K just for materials, which would get you several years worth of kero and might never pay for itself factoring in maintainance and running costs.

JayBee66

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121993232#Comment_121993232

Which is why I went with DCV instead. A slight improvement on a hole in the wall but they make a racket in high winds, which means that in the bedrooms and living room they are blocked with rags during the cold season.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121993012#Comment_121993012

The amount of fresh air you need is very small and can be heated quickly.

A few trickle vents and a mechanical ventilation system can deal with it easily enough, and some homes have heat exchangers to be even more efficient.

As said, the issue is unintended drafts, especially around doors and windows.

greasepalm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121986094#Comment_121986094

Read on that site before and again now that no grant is for Oil or Gas boilers as need a gas one.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121995313#Comment_121995313

can you rephase that please?

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121992648#Comment_121992648

A MVHR is the only form of ventilation which is compatible for an airtight house, they can recover over 90% of the heat. If you are doing a deep retrofit it should be specified at the design stage and in this way it will minimize the cost of installation with for a typical 3 bed semi would be €3K for materials.

Its just crazy cost cutting to consider a deep retrofit without pricing in MVHR, all airtightness work is just pissing in the wind otherwise.

As an illustrative point our DIY deep retrofit with MVHR loses 1 degree C over 12hrs given a delta of 10 degrees C between inside and outside. Heating on a typical winters day of 10C outside is around 1hrs per 24hrs total for a constant 19C internal temp. Solar gain and cooking does most of the heating.

greasepalm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121995952#Comment_121995952

I wanted a new gas boiler but there is no grant for a new oil or gas boiler.

Mine is 13 years old leaking and end of life and very high bills

loyatemu

slightly OT, but I live in an estate with mains gas yet 90% of the houses are heated with oil. My impression is this is very common in estates built pre 1990s.

When they were running gas pipes around the country in the 80s and 90s they should have done more to encourage people to switch from oil which is a dirty smelly fuel compared to gas, not to mention the diesel-powered oil trucks constantly trundling around refilling peoples tanks and destroying the roads.

But that ship has sailed, they're not going to incentivize people to switch to a fossil fuel in this day and age. I do wonder though what the emissions reduction would be if they could get everyone currently on oil to switch to gas, which is a much simpler & cheaper job than switching to a heat-pump. It would certainly improve urban air quality.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122004694#Comment_122004694

oil does emit about 30% more carbon than natural gas, however natural gas emits about 40% more methane than oil.

methane, as a global warming agent, is about 80 times more potent than carbon over a 20 year period.

therefore the immediate effect of natural gas emissions on the atmosphere is greater and more damaging than kerosene.

however this effect of methane dissipates a lot quicker than carbon (12 years compared to 100 years)

so while natural gas is sold as a "cleaner" fuel, its certainly no better for the climate than oil

sydthebeat

I wanted a new gas boiler but there is no grant for a new oil or gas boiler.

Mine is 13 years old leaking and end of life and very high bills

that is correct under the "better energy homes scheme", but incorrect in relation to the "warmer homes scheme" which we were discussing.

loyatemu

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122004816#Comment_122004816

what are the actual amounts though? As in what proportion of the emissions are C02 and Methane?

EDIT: according to this, the main issue is leaks: https://climate.mit.edu/ask-mit/how-much-does-natural-gas-contribute-climate-change-through-co2-emissions-when-fuel-burned

either way, it's a moot point, they'll probably ban the installation of fossil fuel boilers in the medium term.

Wiggy

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121986158#Comment_121986158

Anyone past retirement age can get Fuel Allowance?
It's a means tested payment, according to citizensinformation.ie

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122004983#Comment_122004983

it is means tested for anyone under 70, but all over 70s can apply for it. It is then a qualifying benefit for most of the energy efficiency grants offered by the state.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122004992#Comment_122004992

So is it not means tested when over 70?

Shoog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/122005002#Comment_122005002

No.

con747

1. What Fuel Allowance is
2. How to qualify
3. Rate of payment
4. Apply
5. How to apply for Fuel Allowance online
6. Operational Guidelines

What Fuel Allowance is

Fuel Allowance is a payment to help with the cost of heating your home during the winter months.

You can get it if you are aged 70 or over, or getting long-term social welfare payments. (Access the full list below).

The current rate of payment is €33 every week from 25 September 2023 until 5 April 2024.

Only one Fuel Allowance is paid to each household.

Fuel Allowance season started on 25 September 2023.

How to qualify

If you are aged 70 or over

You may qualify for Fuel Allowance if you are 70 or over. You do not need to be getting a qualifying social welfare payment.

To qualify you must:

• be 70 or over
• be legally resident in the State
• pass a means test
• be living alone or only with other qualified people