Are heatpumps the only non fossil fuel option to heat your house?

thebourke

Are heatpumps the non fossil fuel option to heat your house?

GloriaBog

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058345376/are-heatpumps-the-only-non-fossil-fuel-option-to-heat-your-house

We and some of our neighbours use firewood. I don't think this is a fossil fuel as it grows again. Does this help?

sydthebeat

Wood isn't considered a fossil fuel as it's generally carbon neutral.

But aside from that, some houses are so well built and insulted that an electrical element in an air conditioning system is enough to heat them.

Passive houses also don't need "wet" heating systems

graememk

Technically heatpumps aren't non fossil as the grid isn't 100% renewable.

But as the grid gets more and more renewable the heatpump becomes more renewable.

Other options are HVO and bio gas but still what is powering them/feeding the production of them.

Pellet stoves.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058345376/are-heatpumps-the-only-non-fossil-fuel-option-to-heat-your-house

The only viable and accessible option for people in Ireland I would say. You could use electric heating which is expensive, or wood heating which has its own issues. I think people have issues with reliability of pellet stoves.

That said, with heat pumps you need an air tight house to get the efficiency from them.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121984017#Comment_121984017

You don't need a airtight house.

Air tightness has nothing to do with efficiency.

It's running temperature/type of heatpump.

You can heat a drafty barn if you have the right amount of heat emitters.

It will require the same amount of heat energy into the house as gas or oil.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121984040#Comment_121984040

Put a heat pump into a none airtight house and you are guaranteeing massive bills. Electricity is 4x the price of the alternatives so using a heat pump with a COP of 3x will be more expensive than using gas or oil.

The SEAI recommend a BER rating of at Least B so that the cost of a heat pump is manageable.plenty of people who installed heating pumps into older leaky houses talk of horrendous electricity bills.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121984065#Comment_121984065

Put a properly designed system in with the right size and amount of heat emitters (radiators, underfloor etc) you'll hit the efficiency figures.

Nothing to do with air tightness. With gas and oil most don't even get the flow temperatures low enough to get into the condensing mode.

A BER isn't a good guide either.

When getting my solar in, I had to get a ber.

My old oil boiler at the time put it down to a c2 I think.

If I had a condensing oil boiler, my 1980's house would have been a B. As my Ber was just a box ticking exercise for the solar grant I didn't care as long as I got the C rating.

Kaisr Sose

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121984065#Comment_121984065

A family member wants to install a heat pump into the parents 1950's semi. The house will also have external insulation, solar (no batteries) and new windows installed. I have a concern about how much electricity it would require to heat the house to the right temp for elderly parents (90+). I think a combi boiler may be a better option. All I am told is it has to be a heat pump, with no explanation as to why it's better. I think they just want to have one source of energy rather than two. Any thoughts?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121984124#Comment_121984124

If there are grants involved the SEAI use the grants as leverage to get as many heat pumps installed, but this may not be the right option for everyone.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121984124#Comment_121984124

Sounds like a full refit.

If it's grant funded, yes a heatpump is the only option. Thats the grant rules. You don't have to take the grant, it's not mandatory.

But sounds like the house will be very well insulated, the heat loss will be low, this requiring less heating. The heatpump will be able to run very efficiently.

It would suit your parents, I dare say they keep the heat on all the time now as they are in the house the majority of the time.

What are peoples monthly/bi monthly gas bill these days?

Kaisr Sose

Thanks to both replies.

Yes there are grants involved. Grant for new boiler, not heat pump. All upgrades are delayed years as family member pursues their own personal agenda. There is more to this but it would only derail thread.

circadian

A few of my elderly neighbours have had EWI done and part of the stipulation for the grant was to replace the old oil boilers with a new gas one. Heat pump specific grants require the house to meet a certain BER rating at the end of the work.

As for work on a 50's build, I have done similar but I have also replaced rads and insulated suspended timber flooring. While adding a heat pump may be future proofing the house somewhat, from my point of view it adds a level of complexity and potential disruption that your parents do not need at this age. I would, however, recommend a battery for the solar if the option is available as it gives greater flexibility for charging on cheap rates etc. Again, with your parents at the age they are I really wonder how much benefit they would see from Solar. Insulation and efficient heat source is obviously a no brainer, and again, a heat pump could add a level of complexity that only serves to disrupt their lives.

Dubwat

@Kaisr Sose : I'd also consider the age of the parents at 90+. They might not appreciate the disruption and may not understand how to work the new equipment. If they're comfortable, maybe just let them enjoy their lives and fix the house (if required) afterwards?

My father is a 79 yr old widower with early dementia. We'd love to make him as comfortable as possible but he says no to everything (plus he's a technophobe). So, after a battle, we got him a new boiler (but same controls inside house) a few years back and now a new bathroom (after another fight, lol). But the main thing is he's happy and comfortable.

Kaisr Sose

Thanks again to both

I totally agree with your points. A well insulated home with a high efficiency boiler and solar with batteries is perfect. We have made this point but get nowhere. It appears to be what they want long term versus what is best for our parents, at their age, right now. Our sibling lives with them and uses this as a reason why it's not our business. (The rest of us live a long distance away or abroad.)

Our parents asked my sister and I to try and help. We know they desperately need new windows at the very least. We tried to get someone to measure for new windows at our cota. Our sibling would not allow them access do this. It was very annoying. A builder we asked to call in about upgrading the bathroom was also turned away

At this stage all we can think of is to report the matter to Garda or HSE as welfare/undue control issue. I probably should start a seperate thread.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121985104#Comment_121985104

Looking online there's no grant for boiler replacements, but there is one for boiler controls (eg to the likes of a hive etc)

But seems you have much bigger issues to contend with than gas vs heatpumps.

Both will work fine when properly designed and installed, insulation+ windows will keep the house warm, and both will be low cost, as the heat demand is low.

circadian

https://www.seai.ie/grants/home-energy-grants/fully-funded-upgrades-for-eligible-homes/

This is the grant a few of my neighbours got. Most of them got upgraded to a gas boiler from an older oil boiler.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121986076#Comment_121986076

The eligibility to that scheme basically means you have to be living in poverty

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121986094#Comment_121986094

Well, they are all elderly with someone caring for them or receiving fuel allowances. I would suspect the OPs situation is similar.

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121986094#Comment_121986094

Fuel allowance is a qualifying benefit and anyone past retirement age can get fuel allowance if they apply for it. That covers a lot of people not in poverty.

Sonic the Shaghog

Doesn't the warmer homes scheme totally cover everything 100% once you are on the fuel allowance? Maybe it's a case the sibling wants to try and get the lot done now for nothing rather than paying God knows how much on inheritance?

In my experience they never do any checks to see if there's another party living in the house so could be that.

con747

I would imagine with the other sibling living there it probably means they would not be eligible but could be wrong. It's only a form to fill in so worth a punt.

Sonic the Shaghog

Ive known many families where the parent "lives alone" and gets a full grant off the county councils who don't bother checking. So getting this wouldn't surprise me one bit

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121986328#Comment_121986328

I think that's the sticking point. They want a heat pump in, the grant wouldn't cover that and would only go as far as doing a boiler upgrade if deemed required.

Ubbquittious

Turf. As long as you cut a piece that is below the minimum age required for fossil formation.

Heat pumps are still partially powered by fossil fuel in most cases

circadian

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121991050#Comment_121991050

Helpful.

SodiumCooled

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121984040#Comment_121984040

Sorry but that’s totally incorrect. Airtightness is a critical aspect in running an efficient heating system. A drafty house means you are losing heat, this means running the system harder and longer to keep up temperatures and thus costing much more money to run.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121991697#Comment_121991697

Is it though? I'm not talking about how efficient a house is for energy. I am talking about the efficiency of the heat source. Be it gas, oil or heatpump. Comparing heat source with heat source.

Yes a more insulated house will be cheaper to run no matter what it's heat source is.

With the right heat emitters you'll get your gas to almost 95+% , with the flow temperatures being low enough to be in condensing mode as much as possible. If it's running at 70c, it's more like the 80% mark.

Same with heatpumps, with the right emitters you'll get your 400-500% efficiency to beat the gas price. To beat oil, it's even easier.

So the statement that you need an airtight house to run a heatpump efficiently is totally incorrect.

JayBee66

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121991697#Comment_121991697

What you say makes sense. The HeatPunk simulator shows that if you don't heat a room then other rooms have to work harder because you are losing heat from the heated rooms. Even with doors closed.

I would assume that a draught is going to make a large room of the outside for which your house is going to have to work harder for.

I now have triple glazing, which replaced the warped plastic windows and that has made a big difference on draughts. The unheated house will still be as cold as before the triple glazing but it warms up faster and cools more slowly.

My only problem now is thermal bridging because the house is a bungalow with old fashioned capping on the cavity walls. Hopefully, insulated wallpaper will help. Insulated plasterboard is not doable in my situation.

GreeBo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121984117#Comment_121984117

But lack of air tightness just allows heat to escape, sure you can make up for that energy loss by adding in more energy, but that costs more money than you would need if your house was more airtight?

slave1

Far Infra red heaters (electric)

ColemanY2K

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121991799#Comment_121991799

is a deep retrofit an option? i've seen a few old bungalows undergo this process where they were gutted incl the removal of floors to improve u-values and thermal bridging issues.

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121991837#Comment_121991837

Which is irrelevant to the actual running of the heating source.

By that argument you need a air tight house for a gas or oil boiler too.

It is likely that fitting a suitable heating system may not be economically viable in install costs, a heat pump install will buy a lot of gas!

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121983209#Comment_121983209

There are 45 passive houses registered in the country, so a fairly rare specification and circumstance.

The air-tightness thing is a bit weird, given air vents - leakiness - are mandated by regulation in the absence of expensive heat recovery ventilation.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121991755#Comment_121991755

To qualify for a heat pump system grant your home must have sufficiently low heat loss.

You are correct, you can have as much air leakage and heat loss as you like, so long as you don't want the grant and don't mind the running costs.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121992090#Comment_121992090

Rerofitting is an option, but you will likely never recover the cost in your lifetime.

The estimated cost of a deep retrofit for a three-bedroom home is between €60,000 and €70,000.

https://www.irishtimes.com/special-reports/renovate/home-retrofits-a-guide-to-costs-grants-time-frames-and-best-ways-to-approach-the-project-1.4811069

The retrofit grants in Italy are bonkers, being up to 110%. Completely unsustainable of course.

ColemanY2K

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121992251#Comment_121992251

perhaps but there's a lot to be said for living in a comfortable home.

however 60 - 70k is a drop in the ocean compared to what some folk are paying for extensions or loft conversions.

JayBee66

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121992090#Comment_121992090

Very much no.

I did suggest it to Her Majesty but it fell on deaf ears.

When a heat pump goes in the bungalow can only be uprated from it's current BER of B1 to somewhere in the As. Not that I believe the current rating to be correct.

It will then become a good investment for someone else to buy so that we can downsize or emigrate when we are retired.

timmyntc

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121992158#Comment_121992158

Its completely relevant - heat pumps are designed to be constantly on topping up the heat but keep rads at a lower temp than conventional rads with oil/gas.

With oil/gas you get a big spike of temp when on which dumps heat into the house, and then later dissipates.

Heat pumps rely on constant on and constant temp, such that they only draw power to top up the temp. But if you have a drafty house your het pump will never be strong enough to get the house up to temp in the first place as the rate of heat loss > rate of heat gain from the pump.

Oil and gas overcome this by getting very very hot in a short space of time, although in a drafty house it could feel cool again after a few hours. A heat pump in drafty house will always feel cool, and the bills will be eye watering.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121992196#Comment_121992196

there a multitude of passive houses in the country that didnt think the €2k cost to be"certfiied" was worth it, so they didnt.

and if you think air vents have anything to do with 'air leakage' and 'air tightness' then im afraid you coming into this from a huge lack of knowledge base. if you understood what they are referring to you wouldnt see it as "weird"

graememk

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121992408#Comment_121992408

If you have the right emitters, you can do exactly what you suggested, blast the heat. You could even run a low temperature oil or gas boiler in that setup. And not lose 20% for not being in the condensing mode too(from being very very hot)

Room requires X amount of kW of heat, have enough radiators to output that amount of heat, heat source supplies x amount of heat.

The room may be wall to wall radiators but it will be heated.

Am I suggesting that everyone rip out the oil and gas for heatpumps right now? God no.

But what I am saying is you don't need an airtight house for a heatpump. A heat source is a heat source, if your emitters (radiators, underfloor, fancoils) are designed around it, you can heat anything.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121992443#Comment_121992443

I live in a house on the side of an exposed hill with air vents. I just had my satellite dish torn off a bit over a month ago. I don't 'think' air vents are the antithesis of 'air tightness' I know it for a cold, expensive fact, 'weird' as you might find that.

This study proves that natural ventilation in residential buildings fulfils itsfunction only by increasing the air flow into the building, and that this incurs significant heat lossfrom buildings during the heating season

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/332728343_Optimisation_of_Heat_Loss_through_Ventilation_for_Residential_Buildings_Reprinted_from_Atmosphere_2018_9_95

True Emperor's new clothes stuff to think mandated air ventillation doesn't negatively compromise air tightness or heat loss.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121992648#Comment_121992648

"mandated air ventilation" has been mandated since the inception of the building regulations in 1991, im not sure what youre on about here. Fresh air is a building regulation requirement and VERY necessary for the health of the inhabitants. No idea what thats got to do with gusts blowing down your satellite dish.

Air tightness however has NOTHING got to do with the requirement to provide fresh air to your home.

Air tightness is a measure of how well built you home is, and is there to prevent losing heat through undesigned draughts.

in fact when carrying out "air tightness test" the tester must seal over the air vents (be they wall vents, window vents or MHRV vents) in order to measure the leakage through the building fabric. THIS is the heat loss you want to be reducing, not the fresh air which is required in your home to live healthily.

JayBee66

Are we all saying that so long as the fresh air coming in is heated at a rate equal to or higher than the already warm stale air evacuated from the building then the house will remain warm?

The only factors to consider then are the rate of air changes and the rate at which the heating heats the air.

cnocbui

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121993012#Comment_121993012

Not quite, that only applies to the component of heat loss attributable to air leakage/ventilation. The ideal is heat recovery ventillation systems, which extract some of the heat from exhaust air and use it to heat incoming fresh air.

I looked at getting an HRV system in 2002, but it was beyond the budget at around €5-6K just for materials, which would get you several years worth of kero and might never pay for itself factoring in maintainance and running costs.

JayBee66

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121993232#Comment_121993232

Which is why I went with DCV instead. A slight improvement on a hole in the wall but they make a racket in high winds, which means that in the bedrooms and living room they are blocked with rags during the cold season.

Padre_Pio

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121993012#Comment_121993012

The amount of fresh air you need is very small and can be heated quickly.

A few trickle vents and a mechanical ventilation system can deal with it easily enough, and some homes have heat exchangers to be even more efficient.

As said, the issue is unintended drafts, especially around doors and windows.

greasepalm

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121986094#Comment_121986094

Read on that site before and again now that no grant is for Oil or Gas boilers as need a gas one.

sydthebeat

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121995313#Comment_121995313

can you rephase that please?

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121992648#Comment_121992648

A MVHR is the only form of ventilation which is compatible for an airtight house, they can recover over 90% of the heat. If you are doing a deep retrofit it should be specified at the design stage and in this way it will minimize the cost of installation with for a typical 3 bed semi would be €3K for materials.

Its just crazy cost cutting to consider a deep retrofit without pricing in MVHR, all airtightness work is just pissing in the wind otherwise.

As an illustrative point our DIY deep retrofit with MVHR loses 1 degree C over 12hrs given a delta of 10 degrees C between inside and outside. Heating on a typical winters day of 10C outside is around 1hrs per 24hrs total for a constant 19C internal temp. Solar gain and cooking does most of the heating.