The repercussions of the Irish soldiers who trained a rogue general’s army in Libya

A Rainy Day in Dakar

This morning marks a pivotal moment for the Irish defense forces, signaling a critical juncture for the nation as a whole. The alignment of Defence Forces personnel with the Haftar faction in Libya, contrary to the UN-supported Tripoli government, sets a perilous precedent for Ireland's global standing. It also sheds light on a deeper issue ingrained within Irish society. For generations, a significant portion of the Irish population has rallied behind left-wing ideologies and often been swayed by Russian disinformation campaigns, particularly in their critique of U.S. foreign policy in Africa and their condemnation of Israel's actions.

This sentiment, deeply rooted in historical grievances and solidarity with oppressed peoples, has painted Ireland as a bastion of progressive values and anti-imperialist fervor. However, the recent revelation of Irish military personnel engaging in clandestine operations in Africa represents a stark departure from this narrative. For the first time, we witness documented evidence of rogue Irish officers venturing into African affairs for financial gain and potentially misrepresenting the ideals and aspirations of the Irish nation. While Ireland has vocally criticized U.S. interventions in Africa, decrying them as neocolonial exploits driven by a thirst for money and resources, the actions of these officers present a contradictory, and troubling, picture. Furthermore, the defense forces personnel painting their involvement as anti-colonial or even revolutionary whilst taking money and backing the Wagner group (who have colonised Ukraine) is laughable.

Their foray into Libya, aligning themselves with the Wagner-backed Khalifa Haftar, raises serious concerns about Ireland's role in international conflicts and its commitment to upholding global norms and mandates as backed by the U.S. NATO and the west. By taking the opposing side in a complex and volatile conflict, these officers risk flouting international law and undermining Ireland's reputation as a principled actor on the world stage. Unlike the U.S., whose interventions in Africa have often been criticized for their exploitative nature, were actaually based on development and building up those countries, the motivations behind the Irish officers' involvement appear to be more insidious. Rather than seeking to foster development or stability, it seems they are attempting to hedge Ireland's position and earn money by aligning themselves with Haftar's faction. In doing so, they are flouting the international system and organizations such as the U.N., seemingly because these organizations support Israel.

This not only jeopardizes Ireland's credibility but also contributes to the perpetuation of conflict and instability in the region. This revelation serves as a sobering reminder of the complexities inherent in international relations and the need for transparency and accountability in all actions taken by state actors. Ireland, a nation with a proud history of championing human rights and peace, must confront the uncomfortable truth that its own citizens may be contributing to the very injustices they vehemently oppose. If they argue the Russian backed Haftar are anti-colonial then why are deals done for geographical resources in return for military assistance? Surely, this contradicts their position that Russia is good and America is bad and exploitative, when in fact Russia is doing the very thing they condemn the U.S. of doing? If it is lawlessness or revolution these officers seek to support, the effect of their actions would not support an overthrow of these governments but instill an opposing world system. It is imperative that thorough investigations be conducted, and appropriate measures taken to rectify any breaches of international law or ethical standards, lest Ireland's reputation as a beacon of morality be tarnished irreparably.

I think we have seen a Rubicon moment for the Irish defense forces this morning. But what does it mean for the Irish nation. Firstly, the portrayal of Ireland as a pariah in world affairs by siding against the UN supported Tripoli government sets a dangerous precedent for the Irish nation. This misrepresentation of Irelands political leanings by privately led members of the defense forces should be prosecutable, framing Ireland, as siding against the UN-backed Tripoli government. A core principle of Irish foreign policy is neutrality. Training forces in a nation under UN arms embargo, regardless of who controls which territory, undermines that neutrality. Ireland should advocate for all parties to respect the embargo and work towards a peaceful resolution. Ireland should enact laws that prevents private military companies operating on it's shores and prosecute those involved in military adventurism by ex Defence Forces members.

The question arises as to the amount of influence the Defence Forces staff exert on the soldiers they produce, who seem to have extremist views, or at least have morally ambiguous ones. Having financial motivations as the sole reason for such operations (if that is the sole motive) is incredibly stupid for a grouping looking for an increase in wages and salaries from the Irish State. The actions of these former soldiers raise questions about the values instilled during their military service. While the Defence Forces emphasize professionalism and respect for international law, the decision to train forces in violation of a UN embargo suggests a potential gap between ideals and reality. A review of military training and ethics might be warranted. The government, particularly Tanaiste Michael Martin, deserves scrutiny here. Michael Martin has a lot to answer for here and it will be interesting to see his stance on the matter. In relation to the armies role were there attempts to stop such activities, or was there a lapse in oversight? The Irish people deserve clear answers about the government's knowledge and actions regarding this situation. Furthermore, blind support for potentially illegal activities goes against democratic principles.

From this recent revelation, It is apparent that the Irish army or ex officers also conceivably might have had a part to play in Hamas attack on Israel. What would be implications for Ireland if they were caught with their hands dirty in this regard? Many people in Ireland even the Irish president have been seen supporting the Gazans despite their terrorist attack on Israel. Any evidence linking Irish military personnel or ex-officers to activities supporting designated terrorist organizations like Hamas would be profoundly damaging to Ireland's reputation on the global stage. Having worked and owned businesses that operate in America it is imperative that any citizen or visitor there involved in terrorism or terrorsit financing in any way is incarcerated and locked away. It is a BIG no-no to have any sort of sympathy with terrorism in the civilized world. Any involvement with groups deemed terrorist entities by the international community contradicts Ireland's stated values and principles, undermining its credibility as a neutral and peace-seeking nation.

Such allegations could prompt severe consequences for Ireland's diplomatic relations and international partnerships. Many countries, particularly those in the Western world, have stringent measures in place to combat terrorism and maintain security cooperation. If Ireland is implicated in supporting terrorist organizations, it could face diplomatic isolation, strained relations with key allies, and even sanctions imposed by international bodies or individual states. This could severely hinder Ireland's ability to engage in diplomacy, trade, and other aspects of international cooperation, damaging its standing in the global community. Furthermore, any involvement with terrorist groups may pose significant risks to Irish citizens abroad. If Irish military personnel are found to have aided groups like Hamas, it could heighten security threats to Irish nationals traveling or residing in regions affected by conflict.

Foreign governments may perceive Irish citizens as potential threats or targets, leading to increased scrutiny, travel restrictions, or even retaliatory actions against Irish interests overseas. This could endanger the safety and well-being of Irish expatriates, diplomats, and humanitarian workers operating in volatile regions, necessitating heightened security measures and diplomatic interventions to mitigate risks. Allegations of Irish military personnel or ex-officers aiding designated terrorist organizations like Hamas would have far-reaching implications for Ireland's international reputation, diplomatic relations, and the safety of its citizens abroad. It's imperative for Irish authorities to thoroughly investigate any such claims and take swift and decisive action to address any wrongdoing, uphold international norms, and safeguard Ireland's standing as a responsible member of the global community.

On another note, We have seen since time immemorial many or the majority of people in the Irish nation support left wing and Russian disinformation causes, notably on U.S. foreign policy and condemning their support for Israel, condemning the creation of Israel and parties like Sinn Fein condemning U.S. foreign policy. What we have here is the first documented role of rogue Irish officers misrepresenting the Irish nation and people by delving into Africa. We have heard endlessly about Ireland's condemnation of U.S. foreign policy in Africa and some even saying their influence amounts to arms for oil. But what does little adventure signify for Ireland. They now too are involving themselves in corruption of African politics taking what they see as the opposing side in Libya against U.N. mandate there possibly flouting international law. For the U.S. development was the idea not exploitation but for these Irish officers it appears they are trying to game the system and gain influence on both sides of the conflict by siding with the Wagner backed Khalifa Haftar.

We have also seen a big push by the defense forces recently and in the past ten years for increases in pay but this has surely set their cause decades backwards in that regard. How can we as Irish citizens support an army who supports extremism and terrorism internationally? We are disgracing our nation internationally and potentially endangering our country from international attack. By siding with extremist sides in a conflict and taking both sides or trying to hedge our positions is gullible if not downright stupid. Everything resides on honour not guile in international affairs.

I told ya

Are they serving or former members?

A Rainy Day in Dakar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970457#Comment_121970457

Both

mikewest

I see someone has spent a short while getting something to post up some unsubstantiated rubbish.........

riffmongous

Some context

https://www.newstalk.com/news/irish-soldiers-accused-of-training-warlord-in-libya-against-un-law-1712115

Astartes

Why the hell would anyone condem U.S Foreign policy??!

Would it be Albright's harrowing sanctions on Iraq in the mid 90s? The subsequent illegal invasion based on lies that resulted in the deaths of 1.3 million people? Supporting an actual genocide in Gaza?

I'm no leftie but I know **** when I smell it.

A Rainy Day in Dakar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970701#Comment_121970701

The Iraq invasion was obviously led by a war criminal. What the majority in US outside of the loony Republican faction are trying to do is foster a world with stability and rule of law in it (Bush aside).

The U.S. is not perfect but do you people want the world governed by dictators and hostile actors such as Russia? If history has shown us Russia is a pariah. The colonisation of most of Eastern Europe is a dead give away as to their aspirations. The US has never done that.

The US leads by consensus and goodwill a far sight different to the Russian doctrine of force and might makes right. Bush aside.

A Rainy Day in Dakar

I wanted to post links to the Irish Times two articles on this topic this morning but don’t have permission yet.

mikethecop

If i was a skilled and experienced solider who was not retained and paid properly by my own government i wouldn't see an issue earning my wage else where , not a new development,

The Irish have been mercenary's for many many generations

Also its a skillset not an ideology as the op went to great lengths to suggest.

riffmongous

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121971703#Comment_121971703

The issue here is that the military they were training are under EU and UN sanctions

TokTik

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970801#Comment_121970801

The naivety is mind blowing.

blackbox

So this activity was not ordered by the Irish Government?

A Rainy Day in Dakar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121971703#Comment_121971703

Do the words ethics and integrity mean anything to you? They require consistency of position and not to be morally ambiguous or morally aetheistic. You stick with your allies and friends and you don’t move from that position in both governments. Moral ambiguity is no way to run a country or keep alliances. Your Socrates act of either-or works, is slippery and dumb. As we see of the US sympathising with Russia and possibly slipping into dictatorship itself, timeless standards eroding is dangerous and playing with extremist duality of positions leads to the corruption of nations to irreconcilable extremes and their eventual destruction.

Collie D

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121971976#Comment_121971976

Correct. A bunch of freelancers employed by a private company (although according to reports at least one was still serving in the Irish Defence Forces at the time). About as representative of you or I as Irish citizens as Conor McGregor wrapping a tricolour around himself.

A Rainy Day in Dakar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121971976#Comment_121971976

it’s a culture that is predominant in Irish society and has seeped into the defence forces and has been acted upon in a coordinated way. I would question the example set by those in the highest positions in the defence forces how this culture has resulted in this action being taken by soldiers.

It’s a society wide to fight to change this culture of terrorist sympathising, however by taking the extremist opposing side, these soldiers should be taught (and the rest of society should be taught) a harsh lesson by locking them up for a very, very long time. Unlike Lisa Smith they actually potentially trained and fought in an unsanctioned side in an unsanctioned conflict as well as assisted terrorists.

I told ya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970627#Comment_121970627

So there are serving members who, with gov. approval and being paid by the Dept of Defence (or maybe on a career break?), are providing training to Haftar in contravention of UN resolutions. And Ireland was recently a member of the Security Council.

Would be interested to hear what the Defence Forces Press Office has to say.

Peregrinus

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970627#Comment_121970627

Not doubting you, but all the reports I've seen refer only to former members of the Defence Forces. Can you provide a link to a report of serving members being involved in this?

davetherave

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121972873#Comment_121972873

The first Irish Times article on it yesterday had this in it

>One person who flew out to work as a trainer in Libya was still enlisted as a member of the Defence Forces, according to three people familiar with the situation, while others had recently been discharged.

https://www.irishtimes.com/ireland/2024/04/03/irishmen-training-army-of-libyan-strongman-khalifa-haftar-in-apparent-breach-of-un-embargo/

10-10-20

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121972069#Comment_121972069

I'd agree with mikethecop - ethics and integrity become a very blurred line in the context of underpayment, under-appreciation, rising inflation, housing crisis, and possibly a government which you don't identify with. Add the callings and misinformation on social media and you have a pliable and potent audience. If a wedge of cash is calling and the culmination of the event is simply by slipping off the island for a couple of months under the guise of a trip to Morocco - it makes it much easier to resolve within one's-self.

I'd guess that idealistic view took a tumble once Wagner brass was falling on the sand…

granturismo

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121970627#Comment_121970627

You need to add some context - from the article linked:

The Irish Times investigation found that former members of the elite Army Ranger Wing were hires as well as “as one member who flew out and became a trainer that had not yet been discharged from the Defence Forces at the time'

I told ya

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121972971#Comment_121972971

Maybe the member was on PDL (pre discharge leave) or simply AWOL. Whilst on PDL you are legally still a member of O na hE. He/she could still be charged by the DF on their return to the jurisdiction. Time will tell.

However, from the OP I was lead to believe that it involved serving members, together with gov, DFHQ and Dept of Defence approval. Clearly this is not the case.

What retired members do in another jurisdiction is a matter for that jurisdiction and themselves.

keeponhurling

On the allegedly serving member, indeed surely they can be charged for disobeying orders or for treason.

It's trickier for the ex-members. They certainly should not be doing these activities wearing tricolours or any other Irish military gear. But I don't know if there's any specific law about that (yet).

But aside from that, it's probably a matter for the other jurisdiction and themselves.

mikethecop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121972069#Comment_121972069

not as much as they used to no, but being cast aside by successive governments would do that to a man wih a family to feed.

We are a neutral country we dont have allies.

ive bad news for you kid , the world isnt fair and at the min not a particularly nice place and you cant feed a family on ego and faux social media outrage.

buried

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121972069#Comment_121972069

Where was the ethics and integrity when the US gave the green light for a bunch of Islamists to rape Gaddafi with a bayonet on the Lybian roadside? And don't give me this horse$hit about him being a dictator so it was fair game, The US and the UK up until 2010 had normalised relations with him, which even included Blair visiting him for a cup of tea in his globe trotting tent which was pitched up all over the place in the 2000's including Brussels and Manhattan to meet his neo-liberal friends who literally stabbed him in the backside and then sat back and laughed.

A Rainy Day in Dakar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121972970#Comment_121972970

To reduce everything down to the wage you are paid is a corrupt look on the matter. In truth one can always find employment elsewhere but looking for adventure and a chance to stick it to the powers that be in your own country due to underpayment for military service is a corrupt outlook and excuse to betray your homeland.

When we venture into the world of moral ambiguity of position and blurring of lines to suit the adventurer and their sense of moral righteousness due to underpayment, under appreciation and rejection by their homeland, we combine a bunch of excuses for lawlessness criminality and treason.

These soldiers are rebels, a term lauded by by Irishmen and women everywhere. But what about when those morals get challenged and sacrifice is required? Do the protagonists fold at that point or fight to the death like honourable soldiers? Playing both sides and rejection of the leadership of our country is stupidity defined. Playing the rebel and inviting the snake into our homeland will result in our eventual destruction. It is a corrupt moral position and weak.

riffmongous

A.

A Rainy Day in Dakar

What do people think of the blatant overt support for Hamas by the general population here and consequently the Defence Forces underlings and the possible involvement in that terrorist campaign? I know Israel has been too busy to dot the i’s and cross the t’s to point the finger of blame at Ireland for their terrorist if not military involvement in that attack. This episode in Africa is evidence that our soliders who are sympathetic to that cause might be an involved?

But what if there is evidence that shows up to that effect which to my mind is very likely or a dead body riddled with Israeli assassins bullets shows up in two years time akin to the the book vengeance and the film Munich. What then is our countrys stated position ? Is it enough that our military leaders cast it off as renegades or is it a view of population rendering us enemies of the Israel and the US and NATO?

That is exactly what these morally ambiguous soldiers want. To drag our country’s sympathy towards to our own who might sacrifice their own blood for the Palestinians cause. There are many of them and have been seen since the inception of the private military company.

mikethecop

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121976447#Comment_121976447

both a reflection on his world view and "new" account

AbusesToilets

Slow day in the Israeli embassy I take it?

Gusser09

Traitors.

A Rainy Day in Dakar

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/121976260#Comment_121976260

”But what about when those morals get challenged and sacrifice is required? Do the protagonists fold at that point or fight to the death like honourable soldiers?”

Let me answer the question of whether the Irish renegade would fight o the death for his cause. Like the rebellious child he knows that Russia will reward him for his rejection of the west, and like a loving parent America and England( colonial guilts aside) will excuse him for his treason. It’s a win win for the rebels in this country so like cowards they take the side which they won’t get killed.